lagirl, my statement is about as accurate as his is. you don’t truly believe that there is a 3% failure rate do you ? internet forums have been a huge help for me on many different topics and you can’t just say people only use them to complain.
However, I wasn’t too serious about those 3% 
Your statement can’t be anywhere near accurate as you haven’t performed 350,000 treatments. Once you do, you can calculate the percentage of failures.
I actually do believe that most people on these forums come here to find answers to their problems. And the ones who stick around for the most part are still looking for answers. Everyone else stops by once or twice maybe and you never hear from them again, which pretty much indicates that they’re satisfied enough to have moved on with their lives. Most people who come back again and again are still struggling to find a solution and come back to look for more answers, to complain, etc. It’s just human nature.
btw, read posts by RC2001. He’s someone like me who got results and stuck around on this forum answering questions. However, as you can see, he’s not here much anymore. He’s happy and moved on. That’s what usually happens. I’m sure I’ll get tired of this soon too. Posting the same thing numerous times and having futile arguments for free at the expense of my time does get tiring.
What I find interesting on this particular forum is the perception that there is a laser hair removal lobby that argumentatively promotes laser hair removal and tries to silence other’s opinion. Actually, I find that amusing because my perception is just the opposite.
What I see is an active electrolysis lobby that seems to want to make the point that laser hair removal, kind of, sort of works, but electrolysis is really the only solution. And when people with experience point out that that just isn’t really true, the argument gets turned around as to “you see, you’re just trying to stifle other opinions.”
The truth is that they both work to lesser and greater degree. And it is silly to think that they shouldn’t work together. But it almost seems as if there is an attempt to paint laser hair removal in a worse light so as not to hurt electrolysis. Let me give you some examples.
But I constantly see arguments being made that it doesn’t work by people who don’t have any experience providing laser hair removal. They base all their opinion on conjecture.
Laser hair removal doesn’t always work. And I am not including people who are obviously not candidates. But the usual reasons for it not working are due to equipment and experience. When someone with the right equipment and the right experience does laser hair removal, the odds of being successful go up tremendously. There are other reasons, less well understood as to why it doesn’t work but those are also less likely.
Much is made of increased hair growth after laser treatment, and the implication seems to be that one should only trust electrolysis. Yes, induced hair growth does happen but it is pretty uncommon. It is still a very small percentage.
Electrolysis is promoted as the panacea for all hair removal issues. People, who I assume are electrologists have come on here talking about 100% clearance in months. And the implication is that it is almost guaranteed. I don’t know what to make of that so I make no comment. Maybe in the right hands that is possible, but I do know that there are very few things that 100% when it comes to the human body given our tremendous genetic variations.
Furthermore, I know that with laser hair removal, that some new hair can grow out years after treatment. This is the occasional dormant hair that was not present but has now started growing. I can’t imagine that the same process isn’t in play with electrolysis. But again, I don’t know.
Finally, Ms. Batz in a comment in this thread made a point about her african american clients not doing well with laser hair removal. I accept that at face value. But it works the other way also. If I go by the thousands of clients who have come to us who report having had electrolysis and not done well, then I could make the claim that electrolysis doesn’t work. I’ve never looked at the electrolysis threads, but I bet there are people on there who have had bad results. And I bet that the argument is that their failure is due to poor technique and the wrong kind of equipment. If I am wrong, please correct me, but if not, then why not allow my assertions that most failures of laser hair removal are due to equipment and technique and not because laser hair removal doesn’t work.
So what does all this mean. I’m not sure. But I do think one can make an argument that laser hair removal, rather than being promoted as the only solution is actually being protrayed in this forum more negatively than it deserves.
And there is one other thing to think about. Electrolysis has been around for 132 years. I know that because of this forum. I would argue that given how long electrolysis has been around, that laser hair removal becoming the most common cosmetic procedure says a lot about electrolysis. It says that electrolysis was unable to meet and satisfy demand. And that laser hair removal provides something that electrolysis doesn’t. And rather than argue the relative merits of one over the other, that if we really want to help people deal with their hair removal issues that we should embrace both modalities.
Please don’t use a hypothetical (“say for example” … “Are these statistics right? Who knows”) as a statement of fact. I was just making a point about the use of statistics when one doesn’t know the size of the population.
I am not sure anyone can actually give a precise success rate for laser hair removal or electrolysis.
I will again emphasize this to you, sslhr: electrolysis works 100% of the time on any color of hair, on any color of skin on any thickeness of hair. That’s why it has been around 132 years. The problem with electrolysis lies with individual practitoners that are not performing optimally, are not updating equipment, and are not pushing themselves to constantly learn and improve. We have a problem in our profession, and I’m not afraid to make that statement.
Laser practitioners cannot boast that laser works 100% of the time because it is candidate dependent (hair color, hair skin limitations). It is equipment and practitioner dependent. Electrolysis is practitioner dependent and that is very, very frustrating for me I must admit, because I know, if all electrologists set themselves and their clients up for success, then 100% success rates would be common.
Give me 100 offending hairs of all colors and diameters on any skin color. Give me anagen hairs. Give me a cooperative client that comes on schedule and puts the time in and I will win. I always win. I will destroy those 100 hairs permanently, 100%. The hair follicles of those 100 hairs will be destroyed within three hair growth cycles or 9-12 months. Me and my probe always win 100% of the time. When obstacles are placed before me and my probe, all bets are off. I can’t affect a hair follicle if someone gives me a poorly designed epilator or if I’m reduced to wearing Sam’s Club bifocals, working by candlelight. Clients need to cooperate and not run away whining it’s not working after 3-4 months of treatment when in actuality they need 9-12 months of treatments,minimally. It does work. It works on offending hairs that are available and seen today. It can’t work on new hairs that grow five years from now. That statement is easy and is reasonable to understand, right? I think when people say electrolysis didn’t work for them, they are proclaiming that without understanding many of the devilish details that were missing in the process. It may be the electrologist’s fault or it may be the fault of the impatient client who continued to pluck on the side.
Electrolysis can’t be thrown into the arena of laser. The outcome is different when the best electrolysis care is given to a cooperative client that rides through three hair growth cycles. Any hair that a skilled electrologist can see can be treated permanently with electrolysis. Laser can’t “see” every hair, so there can’t be 100% permanent removal. Laser has limitations.
I don’t have much to add to your discussion about other points you raised, but this question mark you have put in front of electrolysis working or not working is worth highlighting once again. I don’t want the consumer thinking otherwise. Let it be known that Laser and electrolysis have different identities, even though people still want to merge them together. I’m well-versed about the electrolysis story, so, let me be painstakenly redundant once again: ELECTROLYSIS WORKS 100% OF THE TIME ON ANY COLOR SKIN, ON ANY COLOR HAIR, ON ANY DIAMETER OF HAIR. You can’t say 100% statements about too many things, but this is a sure bet if practitioner skill and client behavior coincides.
I’m glad to see you said that laser hair reduction works in appropriate clients. What I’m saying here, is every client is an appropriate client for electrolysis. With that said, I never hesitate to promote laser for underarms, legs and bikini line if they have dark coarse hair on light skin. I take joy in presenting good options for hair removal to my clients. You are correct in saying that both modalities can compliment each other and I’m personally glad that I have a great laserologist that I can refer some of my clients to who are good candidates for laser hair reduction, on CERTAIN AREAS.
Dee
Dee,
I wish you lived in england, you are dedicated, honest and hard working and i admire you 100% for being so helpful to peoples hair issues both in and out of the salon.
I have a question for you as well.
I am white, fairly typically white, i tan in the summer (do not burn)and my hairs turn blonde in the sun.
In the winter I am typically pale and i would consider my body hair to be quite corse and quite dark.
Would someone like me be more suited to Laser?
Laser is quicker is it not? and works AS WELL as electrolysis if the candidate is ideal…is this correct?
I am concerned also that one of my friends said she had her arm pits lasered (she is very fair and very blonde though) 3 times, she said it cost £900 (almost $2000) and all its done is made the follicles with 2 or 3 hairs become one, it hasnt really made much difference.
I would willingly spend money if i knew it would work, but £900 for a professional treatment thats made no difference and was agony seems insane to me…could you tell me your thoughts? what might be a good route to go down for me…think sort of justin timberlake colouring/hair colour (its the only comparison i can think of that we’d both know!)…although perhaps slightly coarser haired and not quite as pale…
Thanks alot…your an angel on this forum!
Hey I also want to say that as a man, I am not concerned about having no body hair, I dont want total smoothness anywhere, just finer and less growth all over!
Thanks for your kind words, Tom.
You do sound like an ideal candidate for laser. From what I’ve learned from our laser experts over time, a good alexandrite laser coupled with a practitioner that has good technical skill may be perfect for you, since you want finer and less growth all over. I would definitely get some consults. Hair needs a good punch in those beginning sessions. You don’t want to be undertreated. I would not pay for a package of treatments in case you need to back out of the deal for whatever reasons. You will need less sessions than if you did electrolysis, but time-wise, you still need to go through those darn hair growth cycles same as with electrolysis.
You should consider laser when your hairs are darker as oppossed to when they are lighter in the summertime. Your skin is probabaly darker in the summer as well?
Educate yourself well so no one can play the b.s. game with your time and money.
Take care,
Dee
Tom, as Dee said you’re a great candidate for laser especially if you just want a reduction. What you should do is check out several places with an alex laser like GentleLASE and you’ll be on your way. You just need to make sure they know what they’re doing.
Laser doesn’t work on blond hair btw. That’s why your friend didn’t get results.
Thanks alot!
Have either of you lovely ladies heard of the Harley Medical Group?
It appears to be the largest cosmetic surgical/non surgical place in the england…has clinics all over…any thoughts if you’ve heard about it?
My boyfriend thinks Im crazy and says I am hardly a hairy beast and when I think about it I guess Im not, I blame pornos and celebs for flaunting the whole ‘smooth is sexy’ image everywhere…
So,as a not overtly hairy person… if I were to want say a 50% reduction in hair (not sure what that would look like obviously, but sounds perfect when i write it!)…would that be say, 3 or 4 sessions? How much is a reasonable amount to be paying? Say…
I would like my legs done, my butt done, my arms done, my chest done, my armpits done…
What would you say are reasonable prices per session on each of those parts?
Luckily I dont have back hair as Im 22 so a few years before that demon starts appearing…
Many thanks
Ed
Hi Ed.
Are there any hair reomoval discussion forums in England like hairtell that you can check in on and see if the Harley Medical Group is viewed in a good light with consumers that are finished and happy? I seem to remember a yahoo group that is moderated by a person named Jennifer Clifton that comes out of England. Maybe you could do a search and seee if you can find this group and ask your question there as well.
Prices vary from location to location. Lagirl or sslhr could better gauge how many sessions you would need for just a reduction.
I’ll pray real, real hard for you that you escape having back hairs stimulate as you get older.
Dee
I urge you to start with a small and inconspicous area , like the underarms.
Do a series of treatment in that area, then wait a couple years and see what the results are.
You’ve said it yourself. You have been seduced by advertising, hollywood movies, an exciting new technology, (and internet message boards, btw).
I hate to burst your bubble, but the seduction is driven by unscrupulous marketing combined with your own consumer niavety.
It’s important to inform yourself and have realistic expectations. Even so, the nature of laser hair removal is insidious.
You may end up going through years of treatment and spend thousands of dollars. (Not to mention the pain and irritation of the procedure.) Only to be left disappointed and scarred physically and emotionally.
At least look at the FDA page explaining what “permanent” means: http://www.fda.gov/cdrh/consumer/laserfacts.html#1
Excerpt:
Further, manufacturers may not claim that laser hair removal is either painless or permanent unless the FDA determines that there are sufficient data to demonstrate such results. Several manufacturers received FDA permission to claim, “permanent reduction,” NOT “permanent removal” for their lasers. This means that although laser treatments with these devices will permanently reduce the total number of body hairs, they will not result in a permanent removal of all hair. The specific claim granted is “intended to effect stable, long-term, or permanent reduction” through selective targeting of melanin in hair follicles. Permanent hair reduction is defined as the long-term, stable reduction in the number of hairs re-growing after a treatment regime, which may include several sessions. The number of hairs regrowing must be stable over time greater than the duration of the complete growth cycle of hair follicles, which varies from four to twelve months according to body location. Permanent hair reduction does not necessarily imply the elimination of all hairs in the treatment area.
FDA does not make comparisons between systems or how well or safely they work compared to another company’s system. FDA does not recommend one laser system over another.
Lasers cleared for body hair removal are also cleared for facial hair removal.
Seriously?
This is the most serious and frontline medical group in the united kingdom, not an internet scam though.
I hardly see the point in waiting a few years?
surely people here have had permanent laser results.
I am not naive, I am doing my research here and I would definately be very careful before selectng anywhere…
There are others here who have had success with lasering, are there not?
Just an update from me… I’m well aware that I may not get 100% removal, I know the results are dependent on skin type and hair type. I probably wasn’t clear enough in my original post - I’ve read up on the risks and the success of some of the treatments available, and for me, I think it’s worth it to take the risk and see if laser works. I just wanted information on which of the types of laser were most successful. The discomfort I feel in my own body isn’t worth it, if something can be done to fix it, I will try it. Sorry for any confusion my post caused.
I’ll be going for a consultation at the Mapperley Park Clinic (http://www.mapperleypark.co.uk/) next week regarding which laser will be best for me. They offer the Cynosure Alexandrite laser, the Soprano Diode laser and the Nd:YAG. Hopefully I’ll find something that will work well for me Thanks for all your help.
Edit: And Ed, the Harley Medical Group clinics are some of the best in England. They will vary from area to area, but overall they’re some of the best regulated clinics in the UK.
There are many laser successes. I have seen them in my own electrolysis practice. They come to me for an area that they want electrolysis performed and show me, for instance, their underarms that were lased several years ago and the area looks awesome. I usually end up removing a few whispy, light colored hairs with electrolysis because laser couldn’t see these hairs no matter what. The two modalites can work well in unison. Each individual case needs to analyzed in order to see what is needed and appropriate. Electrolysis is appropriate for any hair removal job, just for the fact that it can get any hair anywhere, any color skin any color hair, BUT laser can save people time by reducing the number of sessions needed for certain body areas. Laser cannot do what electrolysis can do for everybody. Electrolysis is the big net that people fall in when laser has done all it can do.
Dee
Until you have actually completed a treatment series you will be somewhat niave about laser hair removal.
Look at the title of this thread! You are asking about “permanent hair removal.” There is no such thing!!!
I understand where you are coming from. I was just like you when I started. I wish I had someone telling me all this information.
But I was young and stubborn so I probably would have dismissed it in favor of information that validates my desire to be hairless and perfect.
Speaking of your age. Even if the laser worked perfectly like its supposed to in theory, you would have plenty of hair left. Why? because you are young and still developing new terminal hairs.
(You will be getting terminal hairs all your life. But the majority occur in the twenties to thirties.)
If you understood how the laser works and the body works you’d know this.
Sorry for being a little mean. But you are saying these facts yourself in your own posts, but not acknowledging/realizing the implications.
Obviously this is because your desire to be hairless is emotionally driven. Its very easy to dismiss facts that don’t validate your wants and desires.
And there are several industries geared up and ready to take your money. To some degree they are even responsible for creating this emotional dissonance that makes you so uncomfortable having (gasp) some hair.
I’m sorry, but I don’t think you’re being particularly fair. I am fully aware that I am still developing and that I will continue to grow hairs as I get older. I know that the treatments I go for may not give me permanent removal, but I am looking into this as an ongoing thing, not just to have the treatment for a year and then expect to be hairless forever more. I know that I should go back for more treatments because more hairs will grow. It’s stated just about everywhere that laser only treats the growing hairs and obviously you’re not going to have 100% of your hair growing 100% of the time, especially as I am still just 18.
Please do not dismiss me as naive and stubborn, because I have been reading up on this for years now, trying to find an appropriate treatment for me. I am not willing to sit through electrolysis on my full arms, because not only will this be painful and expensive, it will be extremely time consuming. Hair removal is regulated differently in the UK, and there are many clinics that spring up out of nowhere claiming to have full training and experience. I probably should have named this thread “Most effective hair reduction?” but instead I thought this one would give a better idea of what I’m looking for. Please don’t jump on me when all I was looking for was advice. I know the risks and I am prepared to put up with them.
The whole point of my original post was to ask and find out what type of lasers were most effective. I already have decided I want to have laser treatment, all I was looking for was the names of the most popular lasers in the US so that next year when I attend University there I can continue my treatment. I know that laser treatment is not effective on every skin or hair type, but I am willing to try it and I hope that it will work on me.
Oh goodness,
I dont know what to do now,
Im having people telling me dont do it, it wont work, and people telling me to do it all in the same few moments.
the facts
Thats about all I do know.
Wheres the so called ‘God’ Andrea when shes actually needed??
Infact thats a damn good point, its supposed to be Andrea’s site and shes never ever here and never replies to peoples posts when they directly ask her too (like myself) but instead asks for donations and allows Dfahey,LaGirl and James to do all the work for nothing.
He was calling me Naive, Not you babe so dont worry.
Gotta stick together us brits lol
x