Most effective permanent hair removal?

Hair Removal Methods Laser hair removal
#21

I am just not sure I understand exactly what is your beef. Again, your points are completely wrong and show little understanding of what is happening or reality.

Now, of course, you are going to say that I am just a partisan who has an agenda and wants to promote laser hair removal so that I can make a bunch of money. And that you are the victim of this conspiracy to silence opposing points of view.

I would say you are paranoid or delusional, or have some sort of agenda. I have offered you the opportunity to come meet people who have had hair removal that has provided complete removal of their hair and has done so for up to 8 years. Until you take me up on my offer, please quit making global statements that are false and that do a real disservice to people who are looking for honest answers.

I have no problem with you giving your opinion based on your rather limited experience. But that is all it is, a very limited opinion.

#22

I would say the exact same thing for laser hair removal. Non-responders (assuming that they are otherwise appropriate candidates) are actually those who have either ineffective practitioners or those who are treated on a laser that is not capable of treating them.

Given the simularities of electrolysis and laser hair removal and that they target the same hair, it is not surprising that this is also similar.

So here is the tricky thing sslhr, years ago, (and probably to this day) LaserBlazers accused electrolysis proponents of painting them all with the brush of being unethical. Meanwhile, most ethical electrologists were just trying to say that the LASER has a limited usefulness, and there seemed to be many people overpromising, under delivering, and taking the money and running, leaving the hairy client to show up at the electrologist’s door, minus a few thousand dollars, and expecting the electrologist to cut them a break on price because they had already paid so much money into “the hair removal pot” and not gotten what they expected.

Most of the Electrolysis vs. LASER argument would evaporate if most people could agree that you just can’t use any ole LASER on any ole person, and get the desired effect, and that even in the best of cases, sometimes for reasons unknown to us, it still doesn’t behave. As for electrolysis, some are fast, some are slow, some do work that looks like you never grew hair there, and some leave crators in need of a doctor’s care to heal. Some are fast enough to “catch the phase” and others work to slow to ever get someone cleared.

The gap in ability (and sometimes ethics) from one practitioner to another is pretty wide in both fields.

Surely the lady with the upper lip hair in this report would have been better served with a fast, higly skilled electrologist instead of what she got for the money she paid:

#23

James, your points are correct and that story is an example of what you pointed out is wrong with the perception of laser and abilities of SOME laser operators.

Of course, there are stories that support your other statement about electrolysis having the same issues. My current electrologist for example just took over another one’s business and she’s appalled by how many of the other person’s clients are coming in saying that they have been going for 2-5 years every two weeks with little results. That’s also a lot of time and money spent, in this case, on ineffective electrolysis treatments. (hopefully, none of them have the craters that you mentioned…haha).

Basically, it’s an issue in both industries since you and sslhr can’t treat everyone in the US :slight_smile:

#24

its a complete blow-off to say that non-responders/poor responders are being undertreated or have some underlying medical condition.

the fact is every study out there shows very significant amounts of non-responders/poor responders. by very significant i mean 50 percent or more not getting results.

#25

No question that there are a lot of fly by night operations. Unfortunately, this is a new field where there is no history and there are a lot of people selling snake oil. Or there are people whose business model is about selling packages rather than providing a quality service. It is not a good thing. That is probably the single biggest reason I spend time writing on this forum. I want to clear up misconceptions and help people make reasonable decisions. I don’t write that much because LaGirl does such a good job that I don’t need to clarify that much. But I also want to shine a light on unethical conduct. Of course, one has to do that carefully but still it’s important. And finally, go back and look at all my posts. I try not to promote my company directly because that’s not why I am here. I really don’t care if people come to my company or not. Seriously. There are not that many people in Texas on this site that it makes much a difference. But I do want them to at least do some research and checking. I mention my experience so as to develop some credibility.

But what I do find frustrating is the occasional attempt to insist that laser hair removal doesn’t work or is not permanent. Take JimmyJames for example. I actually think he has a great story to tell and an object lesson for others. And in fact, I am not unsympathetic. I have privately offered free laser treatment to a few people who have sad stories like his if they can just get down to Texas. One person doesn’t cost me a whole lot and I want this industry to be successful, so it is not a big deal.

But back to JJ, if he would just come on this forum and tell his story, it would be great. But then he has to take it to the next level, which is that since it didn’t work for him, that everyone doing this is a charlatan and that his mission in life is to expose that. Unfortunately, he doesn’t know what he is talking about nor does he know what he doesn’t know. And so he loses all credubility and we end up going around in circles trying to overcome his erroneous statements. That I think does more harm than good.

I 100% agree with what you just said. Skill, knowledge, equipment, and technique are important in either field. The two fields are complementary. Laser can not treat all hair problems and electrolysis can not treat all hair problems. But the reasons are different. For lasers it is due to the intrinsic nature of the process and for electrolysis it is because there is much more demand than available supply. Plus, to use your lip example (from another topic) you can treat an upper lip in 5 hours. By that reckoning a quality laser with experienced operator can treat an upper lip in 30 minutes (assuming that it is treatable). And that also has effect on demand. The best of both worlds is to be able to do both and to offer both.

And as far as that video, I commented on it in a different thread.

#26

Of course. And am I being condescending. Yes.

How do you explain that after ten years and millions of treatments world wide, that there isn’t a ground swell of protest about how this doesn’t work? Call the AGs offices in the 50 states and see just how many complaints there are. Or is that just part of the vast laser hair removal conspiracy?

Again, come down to Texas and see for yourself.

#27

I’d come down to Texas but I’ve already blown over 20K on all sorts of lasers, and multiple techs. Yes, laser has worked for my stomach a little bit. I’d say I have about 50% hair on my stomach truthfully. Chest, about 10% reduction. I have 200% more on my upper arms, shoulders and back. This is after 24 TREATMENTS!

Look, heres the bottom line. Laser doesn’t work for some people, I don’t care who you are, what laser you have, it just doesn’t work. You know how many complaints I’ve read about laser? A TON. I read alot less about electrolysis. The stuff I do read about electrolysis is it is expensive and too time consuming, which is true, but at least it works.

You should work on me Pro Bono. I’ll come down to Texas. IF you successfully get rid of my hair, I’ll pay you 3x the amount of what it would of cost to treat my area. I 100% guarantee you cannot remove the hair from my upper arms, shoulders, and back. No way, no how. This could be great advertising for you on this board don’t you think?

I do believe laser hair removal is somewhat of a conspiracy. Many times you are mislead if you are actually having progress or not. You come back 8 weeks after treatment and of course you will have no hair, and you are treated again. You at that point, think laser is working. The hair below the surface laser can somewhat treat, so that sheds. Then you go back, so this could be after a long time of treatments and blown money before you come to the conclusion that it is not working. I first came to this conclusion when I had to go on vacation and had to cancel one of my appointments. 3-4 weeks later, BANG, all hair came back. That is not to say that electrolysis couldn’t be the same way, because it’s difficult to see results and it takes a long time. There are definitely people who respond to laser, but there sure are a hell of alot who don’t either.

I did a little test. On my upper arms and such, I’ve been getting electrolysis, and when the hair grows back in it gets zapped right away, so it’s been pretty difficult to keep tabs on my results so far. So what I did, is I had one elecrologist zap the front of my neck below the Adams Apple 14 weeks ago. This isn’t a big problem area, but I have to shave every other day before. WHen I got this lasered 24 times, it all came back at about the 10-12 week mark, and I mean all of it. I was skeptical at first, but after 14 weeks my neck hair below my adams apple is probably 30-50% gone. Poof. What came back is finer. Last time I shaved was 9 days ago, and nobody can really tell there is much hair there.

To defend laser’s safety, it’s not dangerous at all in my opinion. I really don’t see how you mess it up. It does not take near the amount of skill to operate a laser compared to electrolysis. You place the wand against the skin, and you push a button. I mean that’s it. You don’t have to make sure you are at the right angle, depth, etc like in electrolysis.

The publics want to have Dr’s operating the laser’s really doesn’t make much sense to me. Most of the MD’s that have performed on me were relatively clueless, while some of the smartest hair removal people I know have no MD whatsoever. If you specialize in hair removal, and do all the reading you can, you are going to be more specialized and have more knowledge about your direct trade than some family doctor. That lady who had had streaks or what not seems kind of odd. I mean I’ve had zero altercations with any machine. I’ve gone into the sun to tan about 3 days after treatment, and this is a HUGE AREA i’m talking about and i’ve NEVER seen ANYTHING close to pigmentation problems. And I’ve had 24 treatments, the majority with the GentleLase, which what appeared that the woman was getting.

#28

just complaining to the AG is complicated enough.

i know because of all the bureaucracy i had to go through. since the laser center was operated under the guise of an MD, but the procedure was not actually performed by an MD or under his supervision, I had a very difficult time finding the appropriate office to complain to. I kept getting referred around and i still haven’t heard anything back so im not sure it’s being handled by the right dept.

as far as i can tell. in NYS there really is no one to complain to. the laser centers fall between the cracks in terms of who should be supervising them.

i’m not sure having doctor’s operate the laser solves the problem. they are relatively clueless and adopt the lasers as a supplement to their office business. usually a derm or plastic surgeon.

the problem is the lasers themselves. i do believe that operated under a skilled technician the lasers effects can be optimized, and side effects like patchiness and pigmentation can be minimized.

but the misleading advertising/lack of disclosure will remain a problem. as well as the fact that its just not permanent.

another problem is that to maximize the amount/length in time of hair loss, the laser has to be applied to its absolute safe limit for a person’s particular skin. this creates a very fine line between optimal results and horrible adverse effects like burns or pigment loss. (side effects like irritation and pain are a certainty at such treatment levels.)

given the nature of the repetitive, but spaced-out treatments and high volume of procedures done, it’s very difficult to find a practioner who is going to treat you both safely and “effectively.”

and even if you are lucky enough to find such a practioner, like i believe sshlr is, they are not going to want to talk/admit to you about the misnomer of “permanent” laser hair reduction.

#29

I believe it is equally difficult to find a good electrologist.

#30

I agree.

#31

Simply put, it just isn’t nice to fool poor laser hair removal candidates into thinking that laser will end their hair growth.

I have a non-laser office in a section of NYC where the most educated and successful African American population reside and many have spent thousands of dollars on laser hair removal in MD’s offices and spas and even after 2 years of treatments every 6-8 weeks, there was no end to their unwanted hair. Eventually they end up in electrolysis - no it isn’t depicted as fashionable or glamourous and it is tedious work that requires a lot of patience and time to get full clearance but with regular treatments, they get that 100% clearance. sslhr, are you implying that this population gets 90% clearance with laser?

sslhr, you write that you care about the success of laser hair removal. I say, go ahead and prove that dedication by opening up a school and educating techs. Teach so others can have that 90% success rate.

#32

I should work on you Pro Bono?

Without seeing your hair and skin, I don’t know what we are dealing with. So I can’t make any hard commitments. I have no reason not to believe you, but without knowing the situation, you may be obsessing over just a few hairs. Don’t laugh, but I have seen it.

But assuming that you have had all these treatments and you have a full set of reasonably normal hair, I’ll take you up on your offer. You come to San Antonio to be treated over the next several years (the intervals will be longer) and I will treat you at no charge. We’ll do your back, shoulders, and upper arms. And we will do it for free. And if we remove the hair, you won’t owe us a thing, except a testimonial. And a thank you.

I’m not promising you 100% complete removal. No one can, but you sound reasonable in your expectations. If you’re serious, PM me and we can discuss the details. I don’t mind doing this and I look forward to it.

#33

I am not sure what you mean by 90% success rate. But yes, skin types V and VIs can get successful removal of hair. Depending on the hair and situation, some might also need electrolysis. But I agree that electrolysis and laser are complementary.

Two problems jump out with your example. 1) Treatments 6-8 weeks apart. That is too close and doesn’t work. Plus, I don’t know what laser they are using. Diodes are worthless on that skin, yet many people buy them thinking they can use them for african-americans.

And 2), your unit of analysis are people who failed treatment. Unless you know how many began, you can’t infer that it doesn’t work based on just the ones that show up who failed. That is part of the problem with this forum. For example, let’s say that 300 people are on this board complaining about poor laser hair removal. And let’s say that represented only 1 percent of the population of people who fail. That would translate to 30,000 people who failed laser hair removal. But the estimate is that million people are doing it, so that would translate into a 3% failure at best. Are these statistics right? Who knows. But that shows the problem of basing your opinion on what shows up at your door. Unless you know the denominator, it says nothing.

About a training program. I’ve thought about it. But for a variety of reasons, it probably will not happen.

#34

Well I can tell you that I’m not obsessing over “a few” hairs" I assure you. If I could successfully
shave the area I probably wouldn’t even care but the hair is pretty thick and if I shaved the area the
next time I could do it again would be 3 weeks or so.

I may take you up on that offer, I’ll PM you with some details. If it works, I’d gladly thank you as
much as I can and provide my testimonial to everybody you want me to, and be in any type of marketing
you want. You can take before after pics and everything.

The only thing that I’m scared of is laser induced hair. I’ve basically cleared the entire area once
with electrolysis already, and I’m really scared that laser would make it come back thicker like I feel
laser has done already. The travel expenses might cost more than actual treatments I could be doing, but
I wouldn’t mind and you seem confident you can remove my hair. I’ll send you a PM

#35

Dear Mr. SSLHR,

sslhr: Your comment here is wrong in so many ways that it isn’t worth pointing them out. I’m kind of tired of it.

No. That comment just doesn’t wash. It’s you that has been wrong here in so many ways, from representing yourself medically as completely vacant of scientific reasoning, and then disappearing when others point out your inaccuracies. It just is so amusing to watch your attempts to discredit one person on this board that has a medical background, laser treatment experience, and electrolysis experience, who can read your posts, visit your links, and read your referred documents and know good and well, that what you say, and how you try to back it up just doesn’t wash. As for being tired, you have it in your power to turn off your computer anytime.

sslhr: Without seeing your hair and skin, I don’t know what we are dealing with. So I can’t make any hard commitments. I have no reason not to believe you, but without knowing the situation, you may be obsessing over just a few hairs. Don’t laugh, but I have seen it.

In this statement you go from saying you can’t judge the case by not seeing yet, to just really making disconnected remark of labeling him as almost OCD. If he is getting work, I’m more than sure the electrologist isn’t just inserting the needle into bare skin. Hair is there, we have no reason to doubt Chuck. We have no reason to even imply what you are saying. Please, please, please don’t go labeling people as obsessive/ compulsive, paranoid, delusional, etc. when it very much appears at this point that you really don’t understand the DSM criteria for such. If you did, you would no way on earth label Jimmy James as you did. It’s incomprehensible to me that, even if you did possess such knowledge, you would try to diagnose strangers over the Internet that you have never even met before!

sslhr: I am not sure what you mean by 90% success rate.

It’s time for some Sputnik math. If you have ten apples in a bucket, then remove nine apples. What percentage have you removed? 90%. You have removed 90% of the apples. Now if you start with 100% of the hair and remove 90% of that, and examine it in ten years, is that 90% you removed, …still removed?
Next week we cover Tangent Bundles of Differentiable Manifolds. Go home, get some sleep.

But yes, skin types V and VIs can get successful removal of hair. Depending on the hair and situation, some might also need electrolysis. But I agree that electrolysis and laser are complementary.

Successful removal of hair can be done with a pair of fifty-cent tweezers. Just take the tweezers and pluck one hair out. This statement is really worthless. Quantify. Approximate. Do you even have a successful case in which an african-american wouldn’t have just been better off just going to an electrologist right off the back? I personally know two african-americans that actually had hair induced growth after laser, not to mention a thinner wallet. As for ‘some’, I think, I know, that 100% of the people on this board will agree that ALL african-americans will require electrolysis to gain substantially complete hair removal.

sslhr: And let’s say that represented only 1 percent of the population of people who fail.

No. Let’s not say, let’s be factual. This reminds me of the time you came up with the Neosporin allergy percentage. Where do you get these numbers?

sslhr: But that shows the problem of basing your opinion on what shows up at your door. Unless you know the denominator, it says nothing.

No. She is seeing proof at her door, she is seeing proof on this board, she is gathering proof from colleagues, she is seeing proof on national television as scams are uncovered. This my friend, counts for a whole lot.

Mantaray

#36

Mantaray,

I am not sure what the heck is your problem that you go to so such lengths for a personal attack? Riffing about OCD and DSM off such a simple comment that I would think that everyone understood in context. I wasn’t aware that I was making any kind of diagnosis of anything.

I am not going to bother to go through your arguments one at a time. But let’s just take one example. Your comment about sputnik math. The comment was about a 90% success rate. Now does that mean that 100% of the people get a 90% reduction in hair? Does that mean that 90% of the people get a 100% reduction in hair? Does that mean that 90% of the people get some reduction in hair? Or does it mean something else?

I don’t know which it is, which is why I made the simple statement that I don’t know what Arlene Batz meant by a 90% reduction. I am sorry that you had trouble understanding that.

Anyway enough of this. Please go away.

#37

And once again this is getting personal when it doesn’t have to. It seems to happen when people are reading too much into posts, almost looking to start personal attacks to discredit other posters’ comments. It’s really not necessary and not helpful to anyone. Can we please try to avoid that for everyone’s sake? James? Andrea?

#38

I almost didn’t respond to this persons post. I knew I would be admonished by the same few people. yes i am a real person. it hurts to have the same people acting like my opinion/experience and the facts i point out are (FDA website on “permanent”) worthless.

But I thought they should be made aware that asking about “most effective permanent hair removal” is really a loaded question. i.e. what is meant by permanent? is it removal or reduction? what is considered effective?

I have nothing against people advocating for laser hair removal. But that doesn’t mean you have to attack others who bring up valid points.

These same people are the ones who criticized me when I first came on here asking questions. their attitude was “well its not the lasers fault” “you should have done your research.”

well how is a person supposed to do research if half the facts are supressed? and the other half are lauded?

its important for people to hear from all sides of laser hair removal. and not have to sift through the bickering.

next time i make a comment to someone who is asking a question, i hope the immature people can bite their tongue. i hope they can remember that the person who is asking the question deserves to hear positive and negative stories. to be pointed to information that they had no idea was out there.

#39

[quote=“sslhr”]

I’d say 3% success is closer to reality.

#40

hairborn, what is your basis for stating something that has no merit since you’re not supporting your statement? SSLHR has treated thousands of people at his clinics, so he actually has a basis for making that statement - called experience and facts. As far as I can tell, you do not.