I Need advice.

My translator fails me again.I will try again.

If the Platinum included an absorbing hairs system (like a vacuum cleaner) ,at the same time they are treated, it would save time and money to our clients. My suggestion is for engineers of Dectro Internacional.

You are very lucky to be able to exchange experiences and suggestions from other colleagues. In my country that is not possible. Only a FranTeruel apart. My training in Platinum has also been self-taught. The Dectro offered me a way to learn management, but had to travel about 500 Kms.

Oh, sorry for not understanding the first time! Yes, the vacuum cleaner idea would be an unimaginably terrific concept, but I’m afraid that would be impossible to implement.

The most helpful thing Dectro could do pragmatically speaking, would be to introduce a video with their product. For example, I do many appointments that go longer than 4 hours and 15 minutes. The clock was resetting itself after that time had elapsed and consequently, when I printed out a statistic sheet, it would show that the client owed $21.43 for a session that went over the 4hour and 15 minute mark. There is a way to get around this. I happened to learn this from a colleague, who presented an idea that would warn me as to when the timer would run out so I could take action to reset it, but why not increase the timer parameters to 8 hours? Clients can go longer since the this epilator is more comfortable.

Apilus products are wonderful. I really think that the newest 27MHz technology is such a gift to the electrology profession. Again, the one thing lacking is a comprehensive video that can teach the the electrologist on her own time frame in the comfort of her office setting, the in’s and ot’s of the product. Dectro has their reasons for not offering a DVD and their reasons are not selfish or silly. This epilator has power behind it and they want to make sure that the human being using their product is using correct technique. To do this, one needs to show up at one of their training facilities where they can be observed. I would still like that comprehensive video that tells everything about the Platinum or Pure because I don’t like to travel, I don’t have the time to travel and I think my insertion skills are where they should be no matter what epilator I use. There are many electrologists that insert well. That would have been a different story when I first graduated from my electrology program years ago. I was far from perfect then, but I can say with pride and humility that I can insert very well today and I respond to clues that make me cautious.

If anyone can invent vacuum electrolysis that works on all hair colors and structure, they will be revered.

Dee

I think that what she means is an additional suction system in the probe holder that would suck up the removed hairs like those “dustless” commercial sanding machines that keep the mess of sanding from flying around the room and the floor, and fills a bag instead. Of course, the perfect thing would be a probe/needle holder that allowed one to treat, epilate and vacuum away the hair, but the engineering needed for that would make a product that would cost even more than the Platinum, and we squeal at the cost of that already.

But we can dream.

Dream, James, is my specialty. I dreamed one day to talk about these things with someone. And you see now is a fact. I also dreamed that could reach 1400 hairs per hour and thanks to Platinum, it is a fact. I dreamed we could do without anesthesia and it is now almost unnecessary. I dreamed that I would be able to restore credibility to the electrolyis in my country and every day there are more professionals willing to practice. Dreaming is free, not so much to catch those dreams.

Note to Dee:As to the training offered in Dectro Spain, I will say that I would not go so lazy, if I could get a good education. But I fear that in this case would be the opposite.

So, Dectro offers training on the Platinum in Spain. I bet you could definitely learn some new things you didn’t know, even just one thing, if you attended.

These teachers are not the trainers Dectro, they are professors at the distributor Dectro in SPAIN, and you Believe when I say that the title of professor is not very suitable for them.
I want to always learn, but not to start the hair with tweezers.
That is what I have seen them do “trainer” Spanish

I will reveal a little secret, I do not use tweezers. Most times I do not need it, my fingers are the tweezers . I know this is not protocol. but my clients feel confident with my work and I save some time. Another advantage of unshaved.

What is the best way to transition from a Hinckle UC2 to an Apilus??
Manuals?
Video???

It is best to be trained by a professional who knows all aspects of this profession. You can only know when it has spent years doing this alone. James said as well, can not be an expert if you do other things. And one of those things is spending time on teaching.

If it is available to you, get to work with someone who has one, and learn all the little things you can about what new possibilities the equipment opens up. You don’t know how many people own an apilus and yet never use the auto sensor, don’t know how to go outside the pre-sets, having a clue what the different modes on the machine are capable of doing.

Unfortunately, there are no good manuals or training videos.

Of course, if I were to put one together, I would have to endure the ridicule of the KW’s of this world, and no one would want to pay for it either.

okey I found another electrologist near my area, she is in Alameda ( Susan Parks) about 35 minutes drive from where I live. I just got her voicemail.She has an Apilus, and on her website it states she has 25 years of experience. she only does consultations over the phone. So far I’ve sampled 4 electrologist and have called at least a dozen more in the East bay. What I find interesting is that most of them with alot of experience dont have an Apilus epilator, and the ones that do have an Apilus dont have that many years of experience. I think its safe to say that someone with alot of experience and an Apilus epilator would give good results? what should I ask during the consultation with someone that has an Apilus? how do I know if she or he is experienced with this fancy epilator? I want to all the benefits that this epilator has to offer.

Apilus is relatively new and some older electrologists haven’t necessarily switched yet.

I don’t know what you consider a lot of experience, but I don’t think you need someone with years of experience on an Apilus. You should be able to get a test treatment and see if they know what they’re doing. My primary electrologist had the least experience, only 2 years or so when I started, but she was great. Once you have the skill, you’re good to go. It doesn’t necessarily take 10+ years to get experienced. There are many electrologists with 20+ years of experience who still don’t know what they’re doing.

I agree with LAgirl. I would not be able to ask questions over the phone that would tell me how good someone would be with their Apilus, and I am someone who people call on the phone to ask how to use their Apilus!

Nothing other than a sample treatment will ever tell the tale here. That is why it is so hard for us here at HairTell to answer the ever present question, “Who is good in my area?” (harder still when people don’t want to say where their area is.)

can you guys give me your opinion on this http://www.hairzapper.com/, she isnt that far away from my area, do you think its worth going to see her??

Ms.Laird favors multi-probe galvanic electrolysis. I glanced at the thermolysis section only and found some very outdated comments.

Thermolysis

• In use about 50 years [color:#FF0000]Well, okay, but I believe it has been in use longer than this.[/color]
• Fastest per-hair method [color:#FF0000] True.[/color]
• Primarily meant for the removal of sparse or light hair
[color:#FF0000] False. She is back in the Art Hinkle days of electrolysis. Outdated info.[/color]
• Widely used by many operators because of simplicity of operation [color:#FF0000] Not all that simple, but is far less cumbersome than operating 16 wires or more when using a multiple probe unit.[/color]
• Difficult to obtain permanent hair kill [color:#FF0000] Utterly and completely false.[/color]
• Difficult to use without causing deep-tissue scarring and premature aging . [color:#FF0000] Utterly and completely false.[/color]
• Can require up to 30 or 40 passes before hair growth is substantially reduced [color:#FF0000]Outrageously FALSE!!![/color]
• Can cause imbedded debris, ingrown hairs, circular scars (pits) [color:#FF0000] This statement shoots off the truth meter![/color]

Can damage surrounding tissue and most notably, sebaceous glands surrounding the hair follicle [color:#FF0000] Nope.
[/color]

She explains further:

In use about 50 years

Thermolysis was devised and described as a hair removal technique by Dr. Bordier of Paris, France. His concept was the use of a radiating wave of electro-magnetic energy raising the temperature in the tissue surrounding the hair. The rapid oscillation of the wave would cause molecular friction within the tissue which would then increase with time or intensity. The increase in friction resulted in an increase in temperature. This works very much the same way as your microwave as it heats a styrofoam cup of water. Bear in mind that the energy can pass easily through the styrofoam into the water as well. This becomes very important in a later discussion, when I debunk a rapidly growing myth. What followed Bordier’s invention was the slow, but steady decline in the use of galvanic electrolysis in favor of the “new technology” which promised so much more in terms of speed and volume. In 1945 the concurrent use of both thermolysis and galvanic electrolysis became possible. This was done by Henri St. Pierre and Arthur Hinkle whose company continues to manufacture equipment to this day. But thermolysis would continue to gain popularity because of two facets. It was fast and ANYONE could do it. By 1990, finding a good BLEND operator was difficult to say the least. On the East Coast U.S., and in Europe it was impossible!!! It is confusing to those of us on this side of the Atlantic to find that in many parts of Europe this process is actually called diathermy, but essentially the difference is in terms only.

Fastest per-hair method

Without a doubt, thermolysis is fast. A simple blink of power and the follicle, if done properly, is ready removed. Properly done, small, peach fuzz hairs can be removed easily. Swelling and discoloration are generally gone in about 2-3 hours. The “point effect” of the energy radiating downward from the tip of the needle is also quite useful when treating small sebaceous hairs. This removes the need for actual insertion itself. Simply touching the skin at the base of the hair brings the sebaceous bulb within range of the power band. But I warn you, this is not for amateurs and God knows, there are a few too many out there!! Besides, I have since learned that the proper use of galvanic power can be 5 times more effective, even here…

Primarily meant for the removal of sparse or light hair

Generally, the original intent of thermolysis was to remove a few sparse hairs or an upper lip of peach fuzz. Both St Pierre and Arthur Hinkle warned against the use of Flash Thermolysis for the purpose of removing coarse deep terminal hair such as beards. sigh Not many people have read their work prior to wrecking the complexion of some poor client. And yet the transgender community continually insists on this kind of work be done on them. Purveyors are not difficult to be found, either.

For the removal of sparse hair, thermolysis can even be overused without significant impact to the skin. However in the case of facial beards or seriously dense hair thermolysis is subject to a problem with overlapping of power. This overlapping of power is touted to the community as doubling or tripling the effectiveness of treatment, when in fact, the overlap between any three hairs is sufficient to cook the skin into a serious second degree radiation burn with severe tissue damage. One community provider even went so far as to dismiss the damage as “an allergic reaction” and it was not until the scars formed that the truth was known.

Widely used by many operators because of simplicity of operation

The simplicity of thermolysis operation makes for a tantalizing position from the operator’s view. Most modern machines are fully automated such that operating them consists of turning this knob to here and that knob to there and wail, man, wail. This is often as much instruction as some operators get. Bear in mind that many states have no testing or licensing, much less, training requirements.

Difficult to obtain permanent hair kill

I don’t want to be accused of saying that thermolysis is not permanent, but don’t worry, someone will do that for me. To further understand the nature of why thermolysis seems at the outset to not kill hair, we must go under the skin, to see how a philo-sebaceous unit works. It is prudent to point out here that the instant power stops, so does any means of further damage to the hair follicle. Not so with Galvanic lye. With thermolysis, we find that with each pass, we remove the main hair, but stimulate follicle sites surrounding the original offender. The skin, does what it does best, and that is to protect itself against stimulation and one of those mechanisms for protection is…(good grief)…HAIR. Often the harder you work, the more there is to do!!!

Difficult to use without causing deep-tissue scarring and premature

So, of course, many operators simply “turn it up”. This works fine for hard rock music, but NOT for thermolysis. There are two knobs, so let’s infer that the first knob is the timing. What the heck. It is the easiest to reach! Increasing the timing actually has two consequences. First the heating pattern moves upward into dryer skin where tissue becomes desiccated because it is already partially dry. Second, the heating at the lower depths is also beginning to dessicate tissue due to the increased length of time. Bear in mind, that all of this can occur in under one second!!! Of course, increasing intensity, the other knob, can also lead to tissue desiccation and scarring. The insidious thing about thermolysis is the fact, that the damage is often done long before either the client or the operator is aware of it. Usually scabbing will follow for a couple of weeks and then the skin displays a small circular scar around the original hair site. I have a few of these, myself. Not on my face, thankfully. They are the price I paid for being a guinea pig at electrolysis school. Large areas of high power thermolysis will ultimately present as white blotches in the skin.

Can require up to 30 or 40 passes before hair growth is substantially reduced

Thus, it is that we come to a serious problem. One way to remove all those hairs that seem to return week after week, and month after month is to simply remove them again. This is the least damaging way out of the dilemma and sadly, the least often used. Instead the temptation to increase settings prevails, and skin damage results. Far too many clients have turned up with 30-50 passes over a given area and asked me to do the remainder of the work. They are usually quite shocked when 3-4 passes later, very little re-growth remains. However, I usually do have to set them straight with regard to my attitudes on prior work.

Can cause imbedded debris, ingrown hairs, circular scars (pits)

Ho Boy! Here is where the horror tales begin. It is bad enough that permanent scarring and bleaching of the skin are the price to pay for using flash thermolysis on coarse, deep hair. But there is even more damage to come.

When high levels of power are applied, the follicle heats unevenly, due to the presence of the hair. When inserting the needle into the follicle, the hair has to lie alongside the shaft of the needle. When the power is applied, the result is much like a bi-metal strip. One side of the follicle side expands more rapidly than the other. In high speed photography of this process, what is evident (besides the congealing of the tissue outside of the hair follicle) is the tendency of the lower follicle to twist or even invert. Sometimes the bend can very nearly approach 180 degrees of rotation!!! Of course, this process “freezes” when the power disconnects. The operator then “removes” the hair and the follicle dies. Well…maybe, maybe not. Generally, not, as the germination parts of the follicle may still be present and undamaged. Remember, when the power stops, so does the kill. Given sufficient distortion, and skin damage, there is simply no follicle at all. Should the hair begin rejuvenation, there is simply no place for it to grow. As the dermal papilla (end of the root) begins to re-start producing hair, the hair is simply pushed through the skin and this results in the exorbitantly high number of ingrown hairs. These are easily removed, once they reach somewhere near the surface where they can be dug out.

Debris, on the other hand, is a far worse situation. This can be the burned remains of the lower part of the follicle. It can be small bit of keratinized stuff that was produced before the follicle changed its mind and died after all. It is usually dark and severely imbedded. Often found at depths of .75 cm (about 3/8") to 1.5 cm (3/4"), a piece of debris can be as much as 5 times the size of the original hair and look 5 times larger than its actual size, due to the diffraction of the light in the skin. As tissue is transparent, the effect is not unlike a magnifying glass. This produces a dark area under the skin which may take anywhere from 2 minutes to an hour and a half to extricate. Because of massive destruction or distortion of the follicle by high temperatures, there seems to be no way that the debris will work its own way out of the skin. Also, I have added a series of photographs which clearly show that the outer follicle was simply cooked into the consistency of a tough, semi-transparent “sac” which was so difficult to rip apart, that the debris and re-germinated hair were unable to exit the now dead follicle.

Can damage surrounding tissue and most notably, sebaceous glands surrounding the hair follicle

It may seem to be a bit of an old drum that I am beating, but I feel that the dangers cannot be overstated. I am continually the recipient of one woeful tale after another, and the observer of the sick and sorrowful work being done out there. I would like to focus on the exact nature of the skin damage itself and not the debris. Although the two are intimately intertwined, I feel that I should also discuss them in different contexts, for a much clearer view of what is happening.

One of the most insidious forms of skin destruction occurs when massive amounts of thermolysis power are applied again, and again, to an area of skin. I have promised myself I would not mention any other operators who do this, but all you have to do is go to the newsgroups and wait 5 minutes.

When the temperature of 212 degrees Farenheit (100 degrees C) is reached, things happen. Ideally, the temperature for thermolysis hair kill is 172 degrees Farenheit. However, the operator is given only two ways to control that temperature and neither of them is all that accurate. Of course, it is impossible to insert a thermometer to measure the process at work, but only by controlling time of treatment and intensity of treatment can we change the temperature. The equipment is incapable of measuring the exact temperature and only knowledge and experience can affect the results. Also, operators are confronted with a wide variety of skin moisture types and even areas of the same face are different in their moisture content. Moisture plays a significant role in the heating characteristic of thermolysis. Most often bad thermolysis is observable near the corners of the mouth and around the lips, areas of high moisture content. In addition to the discussion earlier about the drying out of skin at 212 degrees, we have the damage to collagen. Again this is very observable in the upper lip and the corners of the mouth.

Collagen is an integral part of deep tissue and is what helps the skin retain its shape and suppleness. You may be familiar with the use of collagen injections to accentuate areas of the face that are aging. It is thought that part of the aging process is the gradual wearing down of collagen and certainly in the skin, that process is observable. But collagen also has another characteristic. It reduces itself to gelatin when heated to 212 degrees and is carried away from the site of destruction as waste product. It is usually replaced in some part by more dense tissue in a process called fibrosis. What results is the formation of more dense and inflexible scar tissue

The end result of excessive heating of the skin by the use of thermolysis (also, see my section laser) is the gradual replacement of soft supple skin with a much harder and less flexible form of scar tissue. The result can often take as long as 10-15 years to be completely evident. What is evident at that time is skin which is excessively wrinkled and a smile that looks more like the parting of a theater curtain.

See her if you wish! I have always wondered what her website would say if she were given proper instruction on an Apilus Platinum or Pure with PicoFlash or Synchro for her “T” women.

Dee

I wonder what Ms. Laird would think of the many bare faces that I have rendered using MicroFlash, and PicoFlash? Must be an anomaly. A rift in the space-time continuum. :wink:

Michael Bono said thermolysis has been around since the 1920s (and medical diathermy even earlier), and blend since the 1940s (his 2nd edition from the 90s celebrates 50 years of blend), giving thermolysis 80+ years of use.

Where in the Bay are you located? There are dozens of electrologists in the area…

Lagirl East Bay, I’ve called many places and have had sample treatments ( 15 minute ) with many. I’m still looking for someone with an Aplius.

I would call the Monterey Bay Institute of Electrology and see if they have recommendations for electrologists close to you.

The following people have pretty good reviews on Yelp:

Susan Parks - Alameda
Vera Weiler - SF
EPI Center MedSpa - SF
Nora Sherwood - SF
Soft Touch Electrolysis - SF
Le Jusso-Rose Brenda - SF
Judy Porat - Berkeley

Just some input here: One of my clients actually had received treatments from Vera Weiler in San Francisco and liked her very much.

Dee