Well, I did 9 rounds of diode at 45 joules - that’s a pretty high setting, from what I can gather. Noticed SOME reduction in places, some STIMULATED hair growth in others, and no huge impact. Sounds like laser might just not be effective on me. Also did Alex for 2 rounds - waiting to hear the settings, but they were on the higher end.
the hairs would fall out, and then slowly grow back, everytime…
In areas where you had the hair grow back. What was the longest amount of time it took to grow back? I’m at about six months and wondering if it will continue to fill in over the next few years . . .
I would say it slowly kept filling back in after maybe 6 months of my last round. It just piles up over time…
I can’t find one published clinical study measuring the long term effects of laser hair removal. To me long term is more than 1-2 years.
A lot of the studies are funded by the laser company that invented the laser. That can cause biase and I believe deliberate misrepresentation of method and results.
For instance a clinical study by Syneron (company that made my lasers the Auora and Comet) is titled “Hair removal using a combination of conducted radiofrequency and optical energies-an 18-month follow-up.”
18 months? Sounds long term at first. But it’s 17 (not 18?) months after the first day of laser sessions. It only measures 5 months after the last laser session.
The photo of the histological example the paper claims was extracted during the study also pops up in two other studies which claim it is their sample.
Yeah,I don’t believe any major studies of long-term effectiveness have been done. There definitely was a rush to market with hair removal lasers(and of course there was a high degree of demand for the product). Once the lasers hit the market, there was little motivation to conduct studies of long term effectiveness.
I wish there were more information comparing effectiveness of the various lasers. I also wish that more studies would be done on the effect of such variables as power setting/spot size/wavelength on long-term hair reduction.
From my own experience, I know that laser hair removal can be effective, but right now it seems a bit of a guessing game as to which treatment parameters will get the best long term effect.
I think the real con is repeating sessions.
Continuous treatment just keeps the hairs in remission (telogen).
Even the people who’ve said LHR worked for them note that they have “new” hairs cropping up and are going for “touch-ups.”
Dr. Rox Anderson, early LASER pioneer now refers to it as “LASER Shaving”
same here, after ending treatments you can gradually see the area that has been treated filling with hair. I paid something around $3000 for all my treatments and the only area that stays pretty much cleared is area between my browns. everything else over time has filled in with hair.
I read and article why elecrolysis killshair permanently and laser only reduce density od hair and kill some in small procentage of human population. Thanks to people like James here I now now that electrolysis is THE ONLY METHOD OF PERMANENT HAIR REMOVAL at least for now. For me Laser is a just a big, hyped money sponge.
I think the real con is repeating sessions.
Continuous treatment just keeps the hairs in remission (telogen).
Even the people who’ve said LHR worked for them note that they have “new” hairs cropping up and are going for “touch-ups.”
Exactly.
When I first went for a treatment, they said most all would be gone in six sessions. Then it became eight, then it became twelve. The fine print said there is no gaurantee. They can keep telling you that you need more sessions, and still completely fall back on that clause as you spend more and more money. Itjust seems so foolish that people lose sight that clients are handing over hundreds and hundreds, if not thousands, of hard earned U.S. currency in this situation. I find it curious that the LHR industry has done such a good job at hyping, that people will see two options: One has been proven for 115 years, and the other is new and dodges producing any concrete studies. And they have the gullibility to ask, ‘What would be better for me? Electrolysis or laser?’ Lets ask this; what would be better for you to lose weight? An super-shocker tummy-ciser by Ronco sold on TV for $19.95, or this concept of ‘jogging’, that’s really old fashioned outdated technology …oh, but, it’s been proven for a hundred or so years?
Even hairs that fall out can certainly regrow. Hairs in catagen and telogen are going to shed anyway. Body hair, by design, sheds after a certain length of time.
They tell you this business about how you need four sessions to start seeing results. That makes no sense. If their logic holds, you should see a twenty percent reduction (it would be very noticeable) after each treatment. After two treatments, that’s 40%, almost half. But when the client asks, they just tell you that you haven’t given it a chance. It’s a no win situation. Worst though, is the fact that you are bombarding your skin with high energy over and over, disrupting molecular structure and cell health.
Have you seen all the advertising dollars that the LHR industry spends? Universities and their grad students are begging for even the most menial research grants. A study could be set up in no time at all! I know, I worked in research. But there’s not one shred of evidence from any accredited U.S. research institution. This is an industry raking in millions from desperate people, with not one single hardcore study to back them up. What’s happening instead is an LHR avalanche campaign, they’re trying to make it look like their process is ‘new and faster’, that electrolysis is ‘old technology’. And that’s simply not true. Laser is misguided technology, and electrolysis is dead-on effective technology.
It is coming to light though, the way search engines steer you towards LHR like some viagra campaign, the way this ‘Jenrix’ poster comes by here and drops spam on the board, the way supporters act like the nationally televised programs on LHR scams never existed. You’ll notice that many of these clinics are getting out of it. At first they all held up the word ‘permanent’, then, as time passed, in small letters they said, ‘oh…and we offer laser hair removal too’. Now, there’s places here in San Diego that used to offer laser hair removal that no longer offer it. This is the truth. They’re using their lasers for getting rid of blemishes. Lasers are actually much more effective for that.
When you learn how a hair is destroyed, and you learn how electrolysis accomplishes this, the pure simple logic of electrolysis comes to light. The hair is targeted, and the skin is kept healthy and youthful. When you see how laser attempts to accomplish this, you see how overboard laser has to go just to get rid of a few hairs. That’s why there’s women with burn marks on their faces, burn marks on their legs. Methods to remove hair shouldn’t make women scream in pain and scar them. It has gone too far. It’s too far off base.
When will people see the truth. I hope soon.
Mantaray
I am glad someone out there is seeing it.
The saying is, if you want to know the truth, follow the money. The electrolysis industry is the subject of a full court press smear campaign put forth by the LASER industry. They put on shows like “The Swan” to sell a host of cosmetic (read unnecessary) surgeries and highlight how most of the women get LASER hair removal as one of the services in their “Transformation”. They put out fully packaged “news segments” so lazy news organizations can plug and play their propaganda and present it as both news, and the well researched truth. In all of this, they make sure to misrepresent what their service offers, and take special pains to slander what electrolysis has to offer. I even saw a TV show on transsexualism that took great pains to show the transsexual doing LASER treatments, and through editing gave one the impression that the Male to Female transsexual completed hair removal with nothing but LASER treatments. Deleting the fact that this person MUST have “finished with electrolysis” from the “documentary” equals fraud on LASER’s part, and Slander on Electrolysis. We just want them to accurately portray what they can and can’t do and stop misrepresenting what we can and can’t do. Nothing more, nothing less.
I got to tell you, I don’t know anybody who transitioned after the age of 30 who could possibly use LASER as their only means of transsexual transitional hair removal. Most men over 30 have 200 - 500 hairs per square inch, and they are deep, thick, and some have already started to loose color.
Every time you open a magazine, you see some vapid article telling you that LASER offers 15 minutes of painless permanent hair removal, and yet NOTHING but a touch from Jesus, ALLA, or maybe Morgan LeFey could possibly deliver on the promise of permanent hair removal in 15 painless minutes! In the guise of “debunking” articles, they actually RE-Bunk people’s understanding of hair removal, as they malign electrolysis and over hype LASER.
Here are the facts. Thermolysis works by causing the proteins in the hair to be solidified, which happens at 127 degrees Fahrenheit/53 degrees Celsius. One must be cautious, however, because skin vaporizes at 150 degrees Fahrenheit/66 Degrees Celsius. That is a small window of opportunity. When using electrolysis, the conductor of that energy is a fine wire probe that is about the same size as the hair, and overtreatment spillover to surrounding tissue is limited. LASER attempts to perform thermolysis over a large area by sending energy that is just shy of what you have going on in your microwave oven into a space the size of an old style 50 cent piece or silver dollar. It then hopes to cause enough build up of heat to simultaneously fry about a hundred to five hundred hairs all at once.
Can anyone see how easy it is to fall off a razor thin line and cause skin damage here? I won’t even go into all the possible negative effects that are postulated, but not proven or disproven because they have not done real long term studies.
When all is said and done, the only facts that matter are that a fully booked electrologist would be lucky to gross 25% of what a fully booked Light Amplification by Stimulated Emission of Radiation operation would gross and the most expensive electrolysis machine is $10,000 compared to $250,000 for the most expensive LASER set up. That means they will always have more money to buy their way to favorable media presentation, and we will never be able to buy enough counter ads and placements to protect our good name. We only have word of mouth advertising to say that we are the real deal… and half our clients don’t want anyone to know they ever saw us in the first place! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />
What especially drives me crazy is how the laser devotees blame unsatisfied patients for their lack of results, rather than the laser itself for simply not working. Every time someone on here posts about how laser failed them (which happens a lot.) I see this sort of thing a lot:
“You didn’t have enough treatments!”
“You went to the wrong place!”
“Your operator used too high/low a setting!”
“You didn’t do enough research/stick with it/go often enough/etc”
Never mind the fact that those with the best skin type, using the best machines and best doctors, often get no results, get burned, have all the hair grow back, or even get stimulated hair growth. There seems to be so much slavish devotion to laser by some, that they quickly stoop to mean-spirited name calling and accusations against anyone who dares to defame “their” method of hair removal.
Trust me, people, as someone who needs a lot of hair removal, nothing would make me happier than to find a laser that could do it in a fraction of the time of electrolysis. As things stand, however, we’re seeing a lot of failed promises, patchy results, or even downright failure and deception from the laser industry. Far too many people I know wasted huge amounts of time, money, and tears on what proved to be useless laser treatments. All of them had to finish or even start over again with electrolysis. Please, everyone, don’t get ripped off.
May I just interject here and say that I share your feelings and observations, but to be absolutely fair about all this, as a practicing electrologist who does not offer LASER, I have seen great results and very happy people who had the prescribed laser sessions and followed all the other rules to get to a successful outcome. Why do some have a good outcome verses some who have a poor outcome when they have followed all advice and were perfect candidates ???
We don’t need to sort out what results electrolysis can bring, the long history with permanent results has been written and approved. We’re still putting the laser puzzle pieces together, especially with the help of open hair forums like hairtell and cosmetic enhancments forum. (Consumer Beware seems to be off the air for now, don’t know what’s going on there???) All of these forums give the consumer something to think about. It is good to hear about others experiences so one can weigh what is said and decide for themselves and not go into something based on the glossy magazine ad.
Dee
thanks Dee. the same point gets missed all the time. you are not going to get a fair comparison of those who got good results and those who didn’t on these forums. if you want that, go to a reputable clinic and take surveys. this is a place where 90% are people who didn’t get results they were promised by money-hungry clinics (that includes those who are just clueless and were sold a bad laser themselves by the laser salespeople who are monye-hungry) and 10% of those few who actually take their time to do research before spending a lot of money. it’s not an even breakdown, and trust me, as someone who HAS has good results (btw, 8 months now and still clear – a comment that will get quickly dismissed, but i thought i’d throw it in for fun), it gets pretty tiring to be typing the same thing over and over again if you’re not bitter about your lack of results. something to think about once again…
It’s really staggering to find out that;
Electrologists undergo at least a year of training, and use a method that’s been refined for more than a CENTURY.
A laser ‘tech’, if you want to call them that, goes to a WEEKEND seminar at the laser’s manufacturer, and comes back ready to go to, using a high-powered laser that hasn’t even been unbaisedly tested for efficacy.
I really cringe at the thought of this.
Mantaray
You see this all the time now, with a lot of things. Even scarier, a lot of the PHYSICIANS who do laser don’t have much or any training in it. A lot of them go to weekend courses or even read a book to learn how to do it. Same thing with plastic surgery, a lot of non board-certified people from other specialities have jumped on the “cosmetic surgery” bandwagon and are doing things they probably should be. In Dallas, for example, there’s an OB/GYN who does breast implants and liposuction, and a dentist who does rhinoplasties.
If you insist on getting laser, at least make sure it’s done by a board certified dermatologist. They have a lot of training (usually) in the use of lasers for cosmetic application, and can immediately respond if something goes wrong.
The post laser hair “fall-out” that I have witnessed on my clients is really only the top half of the hair follicle. I have never seen the entire hair with bulb and root sheath attached fall out. The lower half of the follicle is untouched by the light rays of the laser. I believe that is the reason for so much regrowth.
In addition, when laser companies advertise “permanent reduction” they really do not say HOW MUCH hair is going to be reduced. Is it 20 percent or 80 percent? That area is left fuzzy. This is an important consideration, especially when the client is spending so much for the package.
The laser client who purchases a package deal with the HOPE that it will work for him/her has sunk costs. If the treatments do not work, they will not recover any money. I have never known of a laser company to offer a money back guarantee. That gamble is a risk the client has taken. Their only choice is to continue to have treatments for the remainder of the contract period. Most people I have spoken to give up after a year if it is apparent that the treatments are not working for them. At that time they come to me for electrolysis treatments.
btw, there are states like Arizona which don’t have any regulations on electrologists either.
Lisa, that’s good you point out how misleading ‘shedding’ can be. I’ve pointed this out as well. Many seeking laser don’t really have a clue as to how the follical unit is constructed or works. Electrologists, when extracting a hair, work from the lower papilla, up to the bulge, then on to the anchoring fatty areas. So, by the time the hair free’s up, it’s all destroyed down below.
Laser works the opposite, it comes down from the surface, it hits the binding upper areas with more energy than the lower portions. And that’s if it does hit the lower zones at all. So the hair will much more likely shed anyway. After the upper binding areas are disrupted, there’s really not much there anymore to keep the hair from drifting out of the follical, unless it has some sort of dry telogen hair bulb anchoring it. So the whole shedding thing is very misleading.
Mantaray
why doesn’t the FDA do anything? the public is obviously being misled.
is it because it’s a “cosmetic procedure”? if they can’t stop it, the FDA should at least require more regulation. there needs to be mandatory patient counseling on the meanings of “permanent”, “reduction”, etc.
regulation of machines and techs is also in order. for the prices that are being charged dermatologists should be the one’s performing the procedure.
maybe you should do something productive and start a petition to submit to the FDA with a letter asking for this. it would sure be more productive and a better use of your time than you spamming all of the forums with bitter comments.