Removed by moderator. Please, no name-calling.
glad to see you can copy and paste. if you applied same type of commitment to changing FDA regulations or actually doing research before doing your treatments, you might have actually been happy, and not bitter.
Many people do research and ask questions before treatments, and the treatments still fail. Besides, if all these technicians and operators are certified, shouldn’t they all be practicing at the same high standards? By stating that one needs to shop around, you are implicitly endorsing the thought that the laser hair removal field is poorly regulated. If a machine gets through FDA, and a tech is trained, there should be no problems.
…Yet there is, and on a large scale.
Exactly! Laser is always having excuses made for it. Everyone knows electrolysis works; it doesn’t need press releases or the like to prove it.
Do you want to know what I think is the best way to compare electrolysis and laser? One might say, electrolysis is permanent and safe in 99.9% of people when done properly. One can be sure of this. With laser, however, anything goes. Even when done properly by the best technician in the world, there is zero guarantee it will do anything. Nobody has any idea how many people will get good results, what those results might be, how long it will last, or how many treatments you will need. At best it’s a gamble, at worst it’s dangerous; even the worst electrolysis in the world in no way approaches the skin damage you can get from a laser.
I am sometimes accused of being anti-laser, but I am not. I am simply pro-results. As a transsexual, I know so many people who’ve been ripped off by laser it’s not even funny. People who could have had permanent hair removal by electrolysis, who wasted thousands of dollars and years of time getting lasered over and over again with no results. And yet, the consensus on the board here from the laser supporters seems to be that they’re “bitter” or even had it coming. Every time laser fails, which is often, it’s the patients who are blamed (“you didn’t go to the right operator!”) instead of the true culprit, the procedure itself.
Fact is, laser has almost no clinical research showing it will work. Nobody has any idea who will get results, who will get total regrowth, or who will get even more hair growth stimulated. What kind of track record is that? For ever one person who’s had good results, there are probably 5 or ten who got no benefit. This isn’t only based on what is seen on the board, but also on people I know in real life, as well as my own personal experience.
This is why I always tell people, if you want permanent hair removal, have electrolysis. It’s guaranteed to work, and there is over one hundred years of experience to prove it. Laser might be faster, but since it usually grows back it’s not over the long run. A quick fix isn’t as good as the permanent choice.
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Fact is, … For ever one person who’s had good results, there are probably 5 or ten who got no benefit. This isn’t only based on what is seen on the board, but also on people I know in real life, as well as my own personal experience.
… but since it usually grows back it’s not over the long run. A quick fix isn’t as good as the permanent choice.
I hope you understand that this is NOT a fact and just your personal opinion based on your personal experience. Other than that, your post makes sense, but this is where you lose credibility. I can say in the same manner as a “fact” as you put it that for every one person who gets bad results from laser, there are 5 who get good results (you won’t find most of them on this forum either, they don’t care because they got results). That definitely has been my experience and for those I personally know as well. And when it worked, it didn’t “usually” grow back. It “usually” DIDN’T grow back. It ended up being a much “quicker fix” than electrolysis would have been and a permanent choice. Unless you recognize that laser does work permanently for some, just not for you and a few you know, your posts are completely biased and it sucks that you don’t put “based on my personal experience, but not for others on this forum” when you write this. that means you’re also completely disregarding posts by people like RC2001, hairlessinla, NoHair etc who did get permanent results with no skin damage, as it’s been more than 6 years for some of them since the treatments. and that is exactly the reason why I feel I have to reply and shed light on this for unsuspecting consumers. trust me, I would rather not have to do it.
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I used “fact is” as a figure of speech, and “probably” to indicate a rough estimate. In fact, my figures are not based on what I come across on HairTell (where, let’s face it, a lot of people have ulterior motives) but on my first-hand experience as well as talking to others on various support groups sites, friends, etc that have nothing to do with hair removal at all. For example, on my facial feminization board, hormones board, etc. In a place like that, where the subject is NOT hair removal, you can get a pretty wide range of people who’ve had a wide range of treatment. From what I’ve seen, a few people did ok with body hair removal. Still more got poor results, and not a single one was happy with beard hair removal. A lot of people seemed to start out really enthuiastic, but over a period of months or years the the hair returned. I’ve even come across people who’ve had something like 30 or 40 LHR sessions, and didn’t get any results.
Looking across this board, too, we see a lot of unhappy people. Some people did do very well, I can’t deny that. In my opinion, though, they seem to be the exception rather than the rule. I don’t understand, either, why I’m expcted to say “based on my personal experience, but not for others in the forum” when I talk negatively about laser, but laser apologists aren’t held to the same standard. Certainly, they well should, since though they might have gotten results, others in the forum absolutely did not.
If you have 10 people with excess facial hair, and send them to a competent electrologist, all 10 of them almost certainly will have their hair permanently removed. You send the 10 of them to a laser hair removal place, though, and things change. Maybe 3 of them would get good results, 4 would be so-so, and 3 would get complete regrowth. This isn’t just my opinion, either. The research and clinical trials (what few there are) Andrea thoughtfully posted on Hairfacts ages ago show wildy varying degrees of success.
For example, these pages:
http://hairfacts.com/medpubs/laserperm.html
http://hairfacts.com/medpubs/alexmed.html
http://hairfacts.com/medpubs/rubymed.html
Hmm. In one study, even in ideal candidates, 69% did NOT have permanent hair reduction. The 31% that did had only a 40-50% reduction in terminal hairs only, two years later. Speaking of alexandrite lasers, “A similar study found 66% reduction at 1 month, 27% reduction at 3 months, and 4% reduction at 6 months. [9]” Not the best figures. Words like “unpredictable” and “permanent hair reduction not typical” are commonly used. We’re even told “The laser damage did not seem to extend far enough down the hair shafts to result in permanent hair destruction" and “the exact mechanisms of hair destruction and the potential damage to other structures of skin are not known." This isn’t my opinion, or something I made up. This is the best of the research out there.
I think someday, they’ll get laser down right. As it stands now, though, I believe there are just too many variables. If you have the money to spend on laser, and don’t mind the potential of regrowth or even increased hair growth, I think it might be an ok thing to try if you have a lot of hair (but never on the face.) If you’re like most of us, though, and only have the time and money to do it once, I say go with electrolysis. We know for a fact that it delivers permanent hair removal. Not reduction, not only for 31% of people, but REMOVAL for almost everyone. I myself wasted 2,600 dollars on laser. That would have completely cleared most of the areas I am now having electrolysis on.
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the problem is you can present your opinion, but you can’t decide for others what kind of reduction or possibility of no reduction they can be ok with. that’s up to them. you can present your opinion, i can present them with information on what seems to work best (type of laser, settings, etc etc) and then they should decide for themselves. it’s not your place to decide that. you can decide what’s best for you, but not for others. that would be assuming everyone’s looking for the same thing that you are, and they’re not. i personally would have been happy with a 50% reduction for the money I paid and it was MUCH cheaper than electrolysis to get that. thanksfully i got 95%, which is even better. it’s about having correct expectations too. you probably heard the ads and went in thinking you would get 100% removal. that’s also what this board is for. this board provides them with information to make the best decision. if you actually read the posts, noone makes any apologies for laser. suggestions are made for the BEST way to go if they do go with laser. noone says it works for everyone or 100%. i’m not sure where you’re getting that. I wrote the FAQs and it’s repeated there SEVERAL times that laser doesn’t work for everyone. As far as I know, noone here has any alterior motives. people present their personal experiences and advise on the BEST way to go, which often also happens to be electrolysis. if they choose to go with laser, FAQs etc are there to provide them with the information to make the MOST out of their laser experience and to help them set correct expectations (as opposed to how they glorify it in advertising)
also, that “study” has no meaning. there isn’t enough information provided to make any kind of conclusions. we don’t know who was treated (male/female/transexual on hormones), specific model of laser used, settings set, how many treatments, spaced how far apart…this can go on forever. we don’t even know when that was measured. after jsut one treatments? after 5? it provides absolutely no insight.
Back in the 80s, my mother spend a fortune on electrolysis. She said it didn’t work well and she hated the results.
So it doesn’t always work 100% of the time. She wishes they had had the laser back then. Her hair is gray and white now, so nothing she can do.
Even Werenotafraid just stated on the electrolysis part of the forum that electrolysis left some permanent damage to his skin. There are cons to electrolysis as well. Probing and disturbing skin with a needle over and over again is not too healthy either. Before anyone jumps with something defensive, i should point out that i’m getting both laser and electrolysis treatments. it’s all about your expectations and about how badly you want the hair gone. everyone makes their own decisions.