Electrolysis/Laser Feet, opinion - pic attached

Hair Removal Methods Professional Electrolysis
#41

Thing is, I have never been a “bean counter.” I’m interested, as I say so often people “roll their eyes,” it’s the total treatment time that counts … ONLY! Indeed, some people seem to get better results from one clearance … others, not so much. However, in 3-shots over, you’ll be done.

People want to count hairs … count seconds … count the rings of Saturn. It all comes down to the time you take to finish the job. The idea of “truth” seem to connote the notion that somebody is “hiding the truth.” Puleeze!

And, putting me in the same sentence with Josefa is not accurate. She has much better results than I do. Looking at that original hairy foot, I’d say I would need 1-hour for ONE foot alone. Maybe I’ll look at the photo again, but at the moment I’m too lazy. Been sanding floors all day.

#42

Well it seems like at least one of us 3 has said ‘‘a lie’’ (sorry the translation here sounds weird). I’m 100% prepared for it to be me with my possible flawed understanding, but there are other possibilities too… It could be NARMA’s deceitful picture (more than one clearance for example), or Michael’s statement that approximatively 50% hairs were present at the time (it could be that for toes, the % is much higher, think almost 95%, than other body parts for example).

It might seem trivial for you, but I love little details like these! However I’m wondering if I should stop pushing this further since I’ve probably annoyed too many people in the past few days already…

#43

There’s also the possibility that we’re all correct and that this specific case was some sort of extreme luck in the sense that at that specific time, all was aligned for all the hairs to be present and Josefa actually killing all of them. That sounds like a good compromise right?

I GOT A BETTER ONE, NARMA IS IN FACT JOSEFA PROMOTING HER SERVICES! I SEE YOU NOW! Just kidding!

#44

“Flawed, deceitful, LIES.” LIES?? Your words … damn, what a Schmuck!

You are thinking like an engineer … humans are biological and cannot be squeezed into your “truth.” By the way, there is no way in hell that you’d ever be a client of mine. Just saying.

Over the years, when I dared give my own on-line estimates, I would get real hate mail from other electrologists! One zapper in New York called and screamed on the phone, “How dare you …” One very graphic lecture to an association resulted in a near riot of animosity …

So, navigating this sensitive “estimates” subject has to be politically correct, or you will suffer the consequences (Josefa has suffered these too). I try to give “estimates” that are general, and will be satisfactory to other operators; within the scope of probability.

One thing for absolute certain, I will never offer such suggestions again. I don’t do “gottcha!” And, I don’t count beans! Annoyed? Well, you got that right!

#45

Hey hey now, I’ve been nothing but respectful to you and everyone and tried to find a good compromise in this thread.

It had nothing to do with your estimates, but simply about the normal amount (or %) of hidden hairs at any given time on a normal human body (or area).

I have no clue about it, which is why I’m trying to find ‘‘the truth’’, or some kind of understanding of it. I guess my words didn’t translate well since I would never want to annoy anyone…

Actually hearing you say that you wouldn’t want me as a client truly makes me feel horrible, since I was hoping I’d get to have a chance with you after you got your surgery. Oh well!

#46

Here’s your addition to your reading list:
Cosmetic & Medical Electrolysis & Temporary Hair Removal by Dr . Richards and G.E. MEharg R.N.

#47

I just read this entire thread again to see what the f*** happened and I’ve concluded that my personality and ideas aren’t too welcomed on this forum. If I ever decide to start electro again I’ll be sure to never ask any questions and try to not care as much, it’s for the best!

Best wishes to all, see ya!

#48

I read a couple of posts only.

Seems like zapmyface has a hard time believing Josefa’s work. But that’s why she’s Josefa. I think the biggest hurdle in other electrologist’s results being incomparable is because they don’t know that this kind of work is possible and how to go about achieving it. How many years have we been on HairTell for now? And in this time did Josefa EVER stop trying to improve her own work? She tried and tested Laurier probes everyone else was too sceptical about the improvements they offer to bother. All the people I know personally (including my own family members) have been happy with 1-2 clearances for body work.

For me, Michael quotes a (still respectable) 3-5 clearances to accommodate the fact that not every electrologist is going to kill every hair they treat. Not every client is going to show up with an area they haven’t touched in 6 months prior. Not every first clearance is going to clear 100% of the hairs in the area even if said client does. However, assuming hairs removed/min is roughly the same between two electrologists, the TTT should be roughly the same.

#49

omg stop taking it personally. I just told you, we WANT you asking questions,we want you to dig out those fears. I can personally tell you, that it was exactlythe same when I came here with all of my fears,preconceptions, and hunt for knowledge. Not welcomed?Nonsense! You’ve been told countless times to challenge those notions you dont understand and question. Believe me when I tell you, there is no one here going “We arent gonna welcome this person because they question everything”.
I’ve tried to guide you in a posative direction and outlet for those questions and insecurities.

Years ago, Dee challenged some factoid I was talking about. I remember commenting to Michael( privately)that I believed Dee hated me. Michael was quick to point out this was far from the case, and in fact,he was Right, Dee is a sweetheart and one of my favourite professionals to work with.It’s easy to take offense in a text only medium when vocal and visual cues that indicate a different inflection are absent.

Stop being offended!No offense has been taken by anyone here.

Your entrance into hairtell reminds me a LOT of my own some years ago. Complete with the same “everyone is against me” insecurities. Truth be told, more than a few of them were rooting for me, not being dismissive. I see that same passion in you, which is why I’ve done my best to encourage you.
Dont let the internal gremlins, over-rule that passion.

Seana

#50

That’s understandable. Perspective is a great thing, which is why I understand you. There is a lot of charlatans out there, everyone has their presentiments and you should not be admonished for them. That being said I am not one of them nor do I consider lying to be the staple of my diet, nor am I offended easily by your suggestions even if others consider them abhorrent. So staying true to myself and objectivity continue reading.

I can tell you that only one clearance was necessary. Josefa gets it right first time. You make a good point about the hidden hairs etc, Josie will be able to explain this more effectively with clarity.

Just be patient and check back to this thread eventually all will be made clear.

#51

I think it’s not a case of believing the work as hairtell is replete with examples of the efficacy of Josefas work, more so where are the hidden hairs? This is what he asked and he’s just a little confused.

#52

Fair enough.

I can see you have a lot of just emerging hairs in the first photo. How long had you left the area alone for before the first treatment?

For zapmyface: From my understanding, Josefa has said that if a client presents with a body area that hasn’t had any kind of hair removal for coming up to 6 month + then approx 85-90% of the total active follicles will have hairs (mostly telogen and some anagen) present. So in a perfect scenario, if ALL these follicles are treated and all are destroyed, by 3 months later the only hairs that will be present were those 10-20% that weren’t present at the first clearance.
But let’s say, more realistically, about 10% of the present hairs don’t get treated (either they are missed due to swelling or the follicle is not destroyed). So, 3 months later,you will have the 10-20% that weren’t present plus that 10%.

In NARMA’s case the hairs are nice and thick, I would expect that it’s possible to completely clear all at the first treatment. My sister’s case was very similar.

#53

The hair in this area was only ever trimmed. The emerging hair may have been hair that was growing back/broken? The feet especially the toe areas rub on socks and footwear itself, the friction has to be taken into account also, do you agree?

#54

Yes, that would explain it.

I’m not sure about friction being a factor unless the hairs were fine and shallow.

#55

I just read a bit more, Seana gave a great explanation.

I see the point of contention is the 50%. But it doesn’t really matter. The first clearance wouldn’t produce such obvious results if only 50% were present, so the client would need at least a second clearance but again, all else equal, the total treatment time over the two sessions would be the same.

I understand why it’s irritating that clients focus on numbers but it IS important for us. Because the numbers end up in how much time and money are being spent.

#56

From my perspective (40+ years and thousands of patients), I keep it simple.

If, for example, I give an estimate of 12 hours for a person’s body section, that’s a number they can rely on. I tell all clients that the first clearance will result in 50% visual reduction. Why? Who knows what they’re doing … or have done? Many factors influence the number of hairs seen at the first clearance.

Even in a never-shaved area, these numbers are significantly affected by many factors and change during a person’s lifetime. The ratio of anagen/telogen and exogen hairs. Areas that could be abraded, such as toes. Previous waxing or shaving? … Still, none of it really matters, and I see no need to go into lengthy explanations when the end result will be the same anyway.

If I were to give a lengthy discussion, the “bean counters” would undoubtedly count the hairs and then be irritated (or happy) that the numbers didn’t match what I’d promised. Nonsense.

What difference does it make, and why would I spend time literally “counting hairs?” Sometimes we get amazing results with the first clearance … other times only so-so. In the long-run, if they keep to the program they will achieve the desired results within the given time (money) estimate.

I will say that in more than 40-years of practice and full involvement in this field, this was the first time I’ve been called a liar. I am a lot of things … but that’s not one of them.

#57

It’s a pragmatic approach.

The problem is, for most of us, we will never encounter a local electrologist who can give any kind of estimate. Usually, because they themselves have no idea because they do not know which of their treated follicles have been destroyed.

Josefa’s approach is a little different sometimes, we know. I think that’s partly because of and reserved for clients that are travelling a long distance to see her and may only ever be able to come for the first clearance. Therefore they want to see the maximum results from that single clearance.

#58

Checking my files and I have only three local clients. Farthest away at the moment: Australia. Getting the maximum results doesn’t depend on the distance the patient is traveling.

Five years ago my Norwegian client said he had done “nothing” to his hairs (as I had instructed). But when he got here, I could see he’d shaved about 4-weeks earlier … and thus I was not able to get all the hairs the first “go.” I couldn’t very well send him home for a few more weeks?

Now the more important issue: YES all electrologists can give estimates. Their estimate should be ONLY based on the averages of their own work. For example, let’s say I have a client from another country that wants back work (or any area). The correct questions for the new client is: “What is you average for this area?” Now, that’s a question! Not: “How many hairs are in resting stage?”

If your therapist has been working, say, 10-years, she can look at her files and do a simple rendering of the figures. (Photos helps to establish a variance: more or less than the average.)

I outline this in my “Strategy” book and the point is that there ARE “Standards of Practice” … the electrologist’s standards ONLY!

Seana recommended the huge “Canadian … Meharg … textbook” and if you care to “count hairs” it’s all in there: charts and all (I don’t “buy” any of it). If any of you come up with a truly definitive answer, that will be lovely … so far, I can’t! But I CAN do averages. And, so can all of us!

And, that’s the “Truff!”

#59

Just for “shits and giggles” let me say that after this uncomfortable happenstance (as you might say “replete with accusations”) it will be a cold day in Hell if I ever offer any actual estimates on-line.

Trying to navigate this mine-field only garners the ire of electrologists (hate mail) and on-line clients (name-calling). When I have real clients, then I will do a lengthy vetting … for them, AND for me. But this asinine punishment, from attempting to help, no longer works for me (and is probably why few electrologists dare-the-drama of Hairtell, et. al.)

“Where have all the elctrologists gone?” Well, not here anyway.

#60

I’ve been busily recruiting new ones. Had you not noticed?