Working on telogen hairs

Hair Removal Methods Professional Electrolysis
#1

Hi everyone, I’m a first time poster.

I have been doing electrolysis for well over a year now on my face, but where I live most electrologists use blend method, but I want to get my entire body done and blend is really slow.

I found an electrologist who uses an Apilus and she goes much faster than I previously experienced. We will be clearing some areas of my body hopefully.

She has recommended when we start on the arms that I wax the hair in advance so she can tackle the new ones that spring up (the ones in anagen I think?) because the resting phase hairs won’t be affected. She’s not recommending that I wax between the treatment schedule, just in the beginning.

My main concern is that (I’ve heard) the majority of body hair has a long resting phase period so the initial waxing may prolong permanent hair removal.
Is there a way to kill follicles with telogen hairs? Can it be done?

Thanks.

#2

Thanks for your question gorillgal. That funny sound you just heard was me jumping out the window.*

*silly comment NOT directed at the poster.

#3

Hahahahha Michael, it is fortunate that your window is a few feet off the ground.

No gorillagal, your electrologist is very wrong, treatment on telogen hairs is as effective (if not more) than on anagen hairs. Many people here are witnesses of this undeniable fact, but if you want proof, here are dozens of documented cases that can prove it.

#4

So I’m guessing the answer to this:

Can it be done?

…is either a roaring YES or blaring NO…

EDIT: ok, yes it is.

How do I go about telling her this information?
Is there a special technique for working on telogen hairs?
Should I offer her to experiment with my hair?

Sorry for all the questions.

BTW here’s my arm

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#5

Such as:

Woman buttocks. Over 90% telogen hairs. Before first clearing September 2011

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Before second clearing, April 2012

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#6

There is no secret behind the treatment on telogen hair. I uploaded several videos on youtube where you can see how it develops this treatment.

I do not know if it´s a good idea to make suggestions to a professional about a change in strategy. Some take this as an insult, others simply refuse to try anything else of what they learned in school. And others will tell you directly that it is impossible to kill all the hairs from an area in 3 clearings, which is the same as saying that the person who says so is lying. If I were you, I would ask her to do me a small area on the arm and wait a couple of months to see what the outcome of her work. Of course, no wax, no shaving, just so you can clearly determine her kill rate.

#7

I think that treating telogen first requires that you accept what you think you know about hair growth and the structure of the follicle is incorrect. Michael Bono has written some excellent posts on this subject.

An excellent suggestion from Josefa - Get her to completely clear a decent sized patch of your arm - completely means every single hair. Waiting 3 months will show you how effective her work is and therefore if you want to continue. In a perfect or near-perfect situation where she kills all the follicles, including telogen, you would expect to see 15% or less of the original amount of hair after 3 months.

Something Josefa showed me was that our follicles are present in groups of three. This is best seen in a case like yours where the hair is untouched. Most of your hairs will be present in groups of threes, so all three hairs can and should be treated. In some cases, there may be only 2 or even a single hair. The missing hairs are the follicles that will produce hairs after your clearance.

#8

Electrologists do tend to practice with techniques they have become comfortable with. There are definitely some rock star electrologists in our midst, but not every electrologist gets to be a rock star. This does not mean that they are not providing appropriate and effective treatments.

The pre-waxing is not my technique, but I know several electrologists who do this and there is nothing wrong with it.

If your new electrologist has good technique, then you will reach your clearance goals very quickly with thermolysis.

#9

I DO agree with Barbara that you will still reach your goal, albeit more slowly, with this pre-waxing stuff. But it’s like this …

A sailor plots a course from Spain to Florida thinking that the world is FLAT. Yeah, he will still get there, but his “science” is erroneous.

This thinking indicates a person that has done little reading (or thinking) on the subject and has basically “imprinted” his/her early training. Training?

A similar issue that won’t die: “papilla only.” This ubiquitous notion is ridiculously easy to dispel given the reality of hair transplant surgery (hairs survive and regrow completely with no original papilla).

(One of the latest ideas to emerge … from a major player … is that CATAGEN hairs cannot be treated, because they are BOTH “too short and too long.” Where the “B-H” did that come from?)

#10

Let me disagree with myself a bit.

I can think of a good reason to “pre-wax.” If the arm is waxed, and then your electrologist zaps the incoming hairs, this will be more cosmetically pleasing. If she clears off small areas, you will end up with patches of bare skin that would look, well, “moth-eaten.” With pre-waxing you will immediately get the look you want … and just maintain it ‘til all the hairs are removed.

Still, that does not mean telogen hairs CANNOT be removed … it’s only for cosmetic reasons during the treatment period.

#11

That’s the problem, if a new electrologist has a good technique, the treatment will take at least six months longer than necessary to be completed. If, however, the electrologist has a poor technique, this woman will have spent a lot of money before discovering that all that money went down the drain. But this who the hell cares, what really matters is that the electrologist is comfortably installed in her own ignorance.

#12

Like I said: The pre-waxing is not my technique.

But…I will defend it as an appropriate technique for those who choose to practice it.

And…I will not imply that an electrologist who chooses a technique different than mine is ignorant.

#13

Well, actually “ignorant” is the appropriate word. “Ignorant” meaning lacking knowledge or education in a specific subject.

The authenticity of “being able to destroy a telogen hair by electrolysis” is not a matter of opinion or of “one’s technique.” This is either completely true or completely false and it would not be a matter of opinion.

If electrolysis DOES remove telogen hairs, then the person who does not believe (or know this fact) is actually ignorant. This is not intended to be an insult to their intelligence, but is a description of their ill-informed “opinion.”

So, I would not “imply” that they are ignorant; I would say with no hesitation that they ARE ignorant.

This sure is a damned worn-out issue.

#14

There are kinder ways to let people know they lack knowledge or education.

To tell a consumer that their electrologist is ignorant really doesn’t help the consumer or the electrologist. Pointing the consumer to Josefa’s videos and suggesting they tell their electrologist about “this video I found” would be a positive and kind way to change the electrologist’s bank of information.

I’m not insulted if you disagree with me.

#15

I re-read Jossie’s post and would like to comment on what she said.

If the electrologist pre-waxes and is a GREAT technician, the whole project will go well. However, if she pre-waxes and is a TERRIBLE technician (does not remove hairs permanently), the client will not know if “its working” for a very delayed period of time: maybe 6 months or so.

If the electrologist does not pre-wax, and works on virgin unshaved hairs, the results of her successful (or not successful) treatments will be obvious very quickly indeed.

I think that was Jossie’s main point? And, her council is (again) not subject to “opinion.” It’s just a statement of fact. Good going Jossie! I hadn’t thought about this but, Yeah!

#16

I just read Barbara’s comment. The thing is the word “ignorant.”

In the English language (which is amazing!) there are “colors” to each word. This is greatly unlike German, for example, that is usually direct and specific with language. The Germans will simply say “schoen,” but we have dozens of English words to “color” our meaning of “beautiful.” (When I lived in Germany/Holland, I sometimes got annoyed that everything was just “schön?”)

For a non-English speaker, the word “ignorant” has no unique meaning except to convey what the dictionary tells them: “lack of knowledge on a subject.” To a native English-speaker, the word has another connotation. And that is the person’s “low intelligence” (although that is NOT the meaning of the word).

So, we have to give Jossie and Beate, and all our non-native speakers some latitude in their use of English. Funny thing is that sometimes they are MORE accurate in their usage and are not befuddled by our sometimes regional connotations. (Try saying “pissed” to an Englishman and then an American … yeah, BIG difference in meaning.)

It’s all good. Still, for those holding on to the notion that “only anagen hairs can be killed?” Well, I would expect them to be wearing a pointy aluminum hat too.

#17

Well, you knew I wouldn’t “shut up” on this subject!

I attended Art Hinkel’s school in 1974. At that time, electrologists were telling me “only anagen hairs can be killed.” I asked Art.

Hinkel told me that he and St. Pierre established, without equivocation, that telogen hairs are absolutely killed using electrolysis (thermolysis and blend too)! NO question about it. The year for their “great discovery” was 1938!

I may not be the most cuddly or likeable guy on Hairtell, but few people would consider me stupid. In my near 40 years of practice, I have successfully destroyed telogen hairs by the millions.

Still, the “anagen only” belief persists (based on the erroneous belief that it’s “all about the papilla”). I see idiotic websites stating this belief, listen to electrologists extolling their “special technique,” and even view recent DVD lectures with this gobbledygook.

It’s been 75 years! SEVENTY-FIVE YEARS!!! YES, electrolysis works on telogen hairs!

Yeah, at this point I don’t feel like being very “kind” to those insisting, “The world is FLAT.”

Furthermore, defending their “technique,” when you know it’s based on a fallacy, is not defensible. There is a point when “kumbaya” doesn’t “cut it!”

#18

Michael, I think that you are mistaken calling yourself not be the most cuddly or likeable guy on Hairtell because you are great!

#19

That is so sweet ekade, but sometimes I’m a bit “prickly” … I don’t mean to be really.

At the moment, I’m making breakfast for Germans! There was a camper in front of my house this morning with a German flag. So, of course I have to say “GUTEN MORGEN!” Ends up with three kids in the thing, and they are now taking showers at my house, and I’m making breakfast!

A friend is heading out fishing in a couple hours and I’ll get all the German kids on board for some excellent FUN! (I will probably be stuck here doing their LAUNDRY!)

The reality is, that I’m a very good “mommie.” I seriously enjoy taking care of people. Not all that big on laundry, however.

#20

Nor is nice that a colleague accuse you of being a “rock star electrologist”. Especially if that comment is accompanied by a sarcastic tone.
Barbara, your defense to those colleagues who are comfortable with what they were taught is really commendable, and even I can understand it from a member who represents a large association such as the AEA. However, I would have liked to see the same reaction when our dear Erika published this blog post. http://permanent-hair-removal-info.com/2012/03/21/choosing-a-great-hair-removal-provider/ Here it is implied that anyone who does not have a CPE, or a Apilus Platinum is not doing a quality job. And now I wonder how many electrologists absolutely wonderful (AEA members or not) refuse to change their machine because they feel comfortable with? How many of them do not have a CPE? How many of them have felt insulted, though none have said a word? I could list at least a couple of dozen. Of course, Erika, as an expert in web design and completely oblivious to this profession, can not be blamed, because she was constantly asking for advice. I did not see a correction on your part. So I wonder if there is a double standard when it comes to defending the interests of the consumers or certain electrologists.

One more thing, thanks to the “unkind” way to Michael to say things, many consumers are saving time and money on ineffective treatments. And also many electrologists are seeing increases their clientele.