"upper-lip gate"

Hair Removal Methods Professional Electrolysis
#1

After contributing to Hairtell for two years, a distinct pattern of discourse seems obvious to me. I suppose the question I posit, is “WHY?”

Nearly all posts by patients reflect FEAR: fear of having been scared, fear of brown marks, fear of scabs and inflammation. Well, you get the idea.

My serious question is why these issues are not being addressed by practitioners? Why does a patient have to post on Hairtell to find out if their “whatever” is doing permanent damage … or to understand how their treatment is progressing?

Most clients seem to be totally “in the dark” about their treatment!

Why aren’t patients getting accurate consultations? I don’t know, maybe they are? Are the “rank and file” practitioners wholly ignorant of these important aspects of their trade? Are they just too indifferent to allay their own client’s fears?

Any casual reader of Hairtell will see immediately that the same questions come up endlessly. Even though these issues are well-covered in the historical threads, patients are unyielding in their fearful approach to treatment. It’s troubling.

Aren’t the schools covering the important issues of the “healing skin?” Don’t electrologists have the “tools” or understanding to explain these temporary problems to their patients? Why don’t patients have the confidence in their own therapists to give them the full understanding of what’s happening to them?

Maybe patients are only seeking a second opinion, but in most cases they seem to be clueless about their treatment altogether.

I simply do NOT understand this recurring phenomenon, and I’m hoping for some good dialogue on this subject … (without sparking another “upper-lip gate.” That’s not my intention. I just want to know.)

#2

I suspect that it’s a timing issue. The more time spent explaining ( and not treating) the less time an electrologist has for profitable endeavours ( like actually treating the client). Most electrologists I think come up with “not quite the truth” shortcuts to explaining things, with the predictable result of the client not understanding. Thus leaving more room for “billable hours”

Seana

#3

It’s a fair question. One I’ve wondered on here too (and consequently, it added to my initial fear, thinking that I’d be one of apparently dozens not getting complete answers at a consult).

However, I would say there’s plenty of blame going around. The medical profession has the same issue of how much detail to get into. I’m an information hog and a research junkie so I want to know everything but that amount of data can also give me “analysis paralysis” when it comes to actively making my own decision on the info. I rely on this site mostly for encouragement and second opinions.

I will say the practitioner I chose shocked and delighted me by e-mailing me several days after my first treatment to see how my skin was doing and to give me that much more comfortable forum for asking any and all follow-up questions I might have (maybe I’m a coward, but it is easier to formulate some of my questions/concerns in writing instead of coming accross as distrusting them if I’m questioning them face to face, or eating into treatment time).

#4

Sometimes I can talk with my electrolysis other times I feel like I maybe annoying her sometimes I just need a 2nd / 3rd opinion. People with facial hair are insecure we need reassurance and hope that we are doing the right thing and that our practitioners are too. My concerns have been about the hair coming back at the same time intervals sometimes sooner around my nipples and was hoping after 6 months that I could spread the appointments out. It is upsetting having electrolysis and 4 days later new nipple hair comes in. Also my electrolysis does a 10 minute appointment on me and leaves 15 minutes between appointments my session is only 10 minutes but I am there usually 15 minutes in the house and back out quick how have you been when arriving chat about hairs through out treatment and pay and go.

#5

How many sessions have you had in that six month period? Do you feel any tugging? Are you totally cleared at each appointment, meaning, you walk out with no hair around the nipples. I would think there would be a great difference at six months if all is going as it should.

#6

Your statement: “It is upsetting having electrolysis and 4 days later new nipple hair comes in,” tells me that you were NOT given a proper consultation! If you understood “hair growth cycles” you would not be upset!

(Example: The young fireman I just cleared (his unshaven back). At the completion, I told him that new hairs would be growing-in the very next day! After my explanation … he gets it! Case closed.)

This statement: “Also my electrolysis does a 10 minute appointment on me and leaves 15 minutes between appointments my session is only 10 minutes but I am there usually 15 minutes in the house and back out quick how have you been when arriving chat about hairs through out treatment and pay and go.”

You might be asking something (?), but I don’t have a clue as to what you mean; the sentence makes no sense. I’m guessing that English is not your native language? Try again?

To Seana, I’m not really buying your supposition. Most of us are not motivated by money. If we were, we would have chosen another field. (Take a look at the IRS statistics of the average income of electrologists.)

Why can’t an electrologist give each patient a well-written pamphlet that would clearly discuss all these concerns? Is there such a publication? AEA asleep on the job? This seems like a no-brainer. I mean, it’s ONLY electrolysis and there are only a few very limited concerns with this lone procedure.

I don’t get it! Keep up the good work in dealing with my question … maybe I will catch on?

#7

I am from UK England

#8

To Dee’s response:

There has to be some universal way to explain electrolysis, without always getting into the “nitty gritty” specifics of each and every patient’s concerns. THAT’S the question I’m trying to address!

Besides, what you are asking her could relate to the strategy YOU are using and not the strategy her own electrologist is employing? Trying to do this can cause even more confusion.

How many times can we talk about, “Do you feel the tugging,” without completely going mad? (You know, the old toupee on the ceiling routine?) I suppose I’m attempting to address a general question here and not get into the specifics of “hair on the old nipple.”

#9

Oh, Helen’s from England … that totally explains it! ha ha ha

#10

I started August 14th 2013 I’d estimate I’ve had around 13 session in total started out between 2-3 weeks but last couple have been at 4 weeks because the chin hairs don’t come back until 3-4 weeks now but the nipple hairs are still coming back at 2 weeks so hence I go in to get both cleared which they are but then end up with nipple hairs coming in only a few days after and wait for the chin hairs before going back again. I never feel any tucking.

#11

I have been told on more than one occassion, with both impoliteness and politeness, that other electrologists are annoyed by HairTell’s existence. So be it. I don’t care.

One of the BIG reasons I stick around on Hairtell is because I learn many things FROM THE CONSUMER. It is like having two fingers on the pulse of the patient, so to speak. When I hear their complaints and concerns, it teaches me how to be proactive in talking to my new clients about the electrolysis process. I also learned a long time ago that the the initial consult ends only when the client verbalizes back to me important concepts about time to completion, hair growth cycles and information about healing and temporary skin manifestations. My consult is always ongoing, unless I really know that the client “gets it”.

Yes, consumers come here for a second opinion and reassurance. It is natural and to be expected. We do the best we can to support and inform. If other electrologists would like to participate and politely disagree with anything said, they will be embraced with politeness.

Hairtell is a real time classroom and it is not going away, unless Andrea James says so. Free advice? What better deal can you find whether you are a practitioner wanting to learn from others or a consumer. This is the very act of offering a free service to others.

#12

My response to me being in the UK was to you stating English was not my native language, coming from England it very much is lol. My explanation as to how long I am in the electrolysis house was responding to Senas comments, were not always there long enough to go into in-depth conversations as to all our concerns, and very often leave having forgotten to ask something. I have a busy and hectic life and go with questions and intentions in my mind and often leave and think oh I forgot to mention / ask that should I wait another month until I see her again or ask Hairtell? perhaps this is the same for others.

#13

I agree with you Dee,

But what about the basics? The fundamentals? Are the other professionals in the field not explaining all this? That was my question!

If there were a publication (maybe there is) regarding all these “issues” … that would aleviate unnecessary fears. These are my questions to all of you. I’m not tring to be “impolite” as you say. I’m sorry you took it like that.

And, now I understand the statement Helen … thanks!

#14

I think part of the issue is the human desire not to offend. For that reason, many people won’t raise troubling or unpleasant issues with their electrologist (or doctor, hairstylist, etc) because they don’t want to sound like they are accusing the operator of incompetence. You can also add the fact that one might be suspicious of denials or explanations given by said operator (after all, how many would say “Well, I really messed up there!” honestly?) and seek a “second opinion” so to speak.

Having said that, I think a lot of clients also ignore what they are told by their electrologist or read too many scary stories and psych themselves up over problems that will likely never happen. Some, too, seem to have the unrealistic expectation that they can have aggressive hair removal and yet suffer no redness or swelling. Perhaps a combination of a standard patient hand-out that would explain the likely after effects of hair removal, AND encouraging clients to research the choices they are making, would both prevent genuine poor treatment OR the phenomenon of clients getting worked up over perfectly normal side effects.

#15

Actually, the comment I made was not directed at you, Mike. I will tell you specifically where I was going with that comment in a private message. This " upper lip gate" thread deserves deeper thought and self analysis in regard to how we educate our clients.

I’m curious about why it is entitled “upper lip gate” . Maybe it is obvious, but I’m a little slow today. (Smile)

I’m guessing that our colleagues do teach the fundamentals to their clients, but that first consultation can be so nerve racking for a client. I really think they only hear a fourth of what is being said sometimes because they are so apprehensive. My consultations last about 30 minutes, but I frequently have to repeat concepts over the first six months especially. I add little educational snipets here and there when I have them captive on the table, usually about normal TEMPORARY skin reaction. That seems to occupy their mind more than anything.

I’m not so sure that most of my colleagues aren’t doing the same. Some people just need to hear a second opinion . Some are obsessive compulsive (aren’t we all) and they have to be reassured over and over again. When their practitioner runs out of words and patience, then they seek help on the Internet in this day and age.

There are some electrologists that just say the basics in short sentences…" Hair grows in cycles…no more tweezing or doing anything that pulls out the hair… It takes about three hair growth cycles in order for this to be finished…" They are seeing people every 15 minutes and it is rushy rushy go, go, go! Not conducive for getting questions answered.

That’s my two cents

#16

As always, Dee Dee, your “two cents” are worth millions. I agree with all you have said as always. (Oh I used “Upper Lip-Gate” just for fun … an “attention grabber!”)

As you say, Hairtell is an education for all; especially for electrologists and specifically for me. After two year of doing this, a few patterns have emerged. My intention was to define those patterns (with the help of others) and create an instrument to deal more effectively with “predictable and common” client concerns.

For example, I have a young fellow coming this weekend from Rochester, New York. He’s of “Middle Eastern” and “South Asian” decent. He has suffered severe PIH from laser (lasted 2 years so far) but was not given an appropriate explanation by either the laser people or the electrologist he’s been seeing. Why wasn’t this guy told about this near-certainty BEFORE his treatments? A therapist just saying, “It will go away,” is NOT enough!

This lack of patient care drives me nuts (and I’m tired of climbing up to the ceiling). So, of course, I became an “electrolysis YENTA” for this kid, and spent many emails and phone calls explaining his condition in excruciating detail. Now, he’s warned! He’s ready, and will take all the precautions necessary. He’ll be fine.

But why not have a simple pamphlet! Why couldn’t an electrologist (with such a high-risk client) simply pull out a well-done pamphlet and hand it to the client. Why not a pamphlet covering ALL the common topics?

How about these: 1) PIH (of course), 2) scabs, 3) prolonged redness, 4) prolonged swelling, 5) temporary “irregular” skin, 6) post-treatment pimples, 7) the upper lip (yes, it requires its own writing) …

I would write these not as a “brush off,” but give the client WAY more information than they would need (I mean, right to the cellular level). I would like to see the AEA disseminate such information … FREE to ALL!

Here’s the point: ALL clients primarily want to know that YOU know what’s happening to them, and that you will be able to manage any difficulty they encounter. Once they know that this is “normal” and you’re really in control, they relax and get on with it. The real pros know how to do this.

I think all of us that have been working for decades OWE IT to our profession to create these instruments. I owe it to the profession! I don’t want to go to “Forrest Lawn” just yet, until I’ve done some real good! (Of course all these writings must be 100% free … on line … and useable by everyone!)

I mean, isn’t THAT what we are doing here? (Oh, by the way, when I do serious writing … it’s MUCH SHORTER!) Damned wind-bag!

#17

So why has this writing not popped up on your site as of yet Michael? Honestly I cant think of anyone better to explain it ( as you seem to explain things quite well.
Perhaps your letters to your “fellow in rochester” would be a good starting point?

Seana

#18

(From another post): I have to say that in all my blend experience, I’ve never heard any “sizzle” (gurgling/bubbling) Seana … I wonder what you’re doing?

About delving in-depth into specific questions on Hairtell? Here’s my point (other than the one on my head): Indeed, a lengthy explanation can be made for an issue. And, a lot of us have done this. However, within a nano-second, the exact same question will be posted from a new client. Our thoughtful (and lengthy) explanations just seem to evaporate.

Hairtell, in some way, is a vortex: information gets sucked up and disappears almost immediately. And, that’s the flaw I see in this “system.” No, something more permanent has to be universally available. Information should be at the electrologist’s command; in her office. A patient should not have to search the internet for answers.

Dee Dee has endless persistence answering the same questions for the millionth time … but a lot of us don’t (I don’t). This is not to say that the questions are not valid; they ARE. It’s just that the repetition is wholly unnecessary. My opinion anyway.

#19

I so appreciate your really smart post “WeR.” And, you are spot on (as always). Here’s an example.

I used to work with Dr. “P.” He’s a really great guy, but he NEVER owned-up to any errors he made. I mean, your nose could be hanging off your face and he would say, “Oh, that’s ‘reasonable’.” (He used “reasonable” WAY too much.)

Dr. Chapple is another story. A few months ago, a face lift didn’t turn out quite well. The patient talked to me and was worried about “what to say to the surgeon?” I told her, “Don’t say anything … just go in.” (I went with her for support.)

Chapple walked into the exam room and immediately said, “Oh, that’s not right.” He scheduled her for a tiny revision (no charge) and everything turned out fine. You know what? That’s what you do, or should do!

My lawyer friends tell me that the doctors that get sued the most are the ones that don’t recognize the patient’s concerns. They dismiss the patient, the patient gets made and they end up in court.

By contrast, the practitioners that “own their errors” are almost never sued: they take care of business and always go the extra mile for the patient.

(If you are an electrologist, and have harmed a patient in any way … get to business before they get a lawyer! Please, take the initiative.)

Okay, I will now shut-up for the rest of the day … and yield the board to SeanaTG (tee hee).

#20

However, within a nano-second, the exact same question will be posted from a new client. Our thoughtful (and lengthy) explanations just seem to evaporate.

I’ll give you a really good reason why (and I swear I’ve posted this point before): There is NO electrolysis FAQ on this forum. There’s one for laser, why not one for electrolysis WITH pictures? In fact, I’ll give you a head start on the pre and post treatment care – brought to you by my electrologist:

http://www.sabrenasmith.com/linked/pre%20and%20post%20care%20brochure.pdf