I understand that it is optimal to wait at least 8-12 weeks between sessions on male back/shoulders laser to allow the next cycle of hair to fully grow in. However, are you able to wait say 14-16 weeks after my 3rd treatment? Will this cause any bad effects on my treatments? Disrupt any cycle? Put past treatments to waste? I will be away for some time thats why I need the time between my 3rd and 4th treatment. Or will it be no problem whatsoever and I can continue on?
The thing you have to remember is the hair growth cycles. Waiting 8-12 (closer to 12) weeks between sessions allows for the maximum amount of hair to be effectively treated. If you wait 16 weeks, you could be waiting too long. Though the hair may seem thicker, some of those hairs could have finished their growing stage and LASER treatments won’t be effective on those hairs. Both LASER and electrolysis are effective while hair is in its growth stage.
So what would be the max amount of time you recommend waiting between sessions? If I had to stretch it for as long as possible.
If it was me, I don’t think I would want to wait for more than 12-14 weeks if I want the most bang for the buck. But, I am not an expert. I know I’ve seen charts indicating hair growth cycles on various parts of the body. I think I would look for them and check them to give you and idea.
The bottom line is, 16 weeks isn’t an awfully long time, either. Yes, there might be some hairs which have left the growing stage. There will still be plenty of hairs which are still growing. In the grand scheme of things and in the long run, waiting for 16 for one session won’t have any major impact.
Read my post and that will answer your question on time between sessions. Going weeks or months between sessions is a complete waste of your time and money.
GNBRETT
Your posting is quite interesting and validates our treatment guidelines that are shorter in duration than the industry standards, particularly on the face.
Yes, I’m not trying to stir anything up with any Laser clinics im just speaking from my own personal experience and I can assure you I have a very thick beard and it is possible to remove hair from the face forever but like I said I am just unclear on what that formula is. The one I followed was just too painful at the time but with better lasers out there now I believe that if done in weekly treatments it can be accomplished. I know some of the newer laser are much more tolreable but at what setting is the question I guess that would be effective. But then again, is the setting really all that important? Or is the shorter duration between treatments the holy grail?
Romeo , can you elaborate on that please ?
what are your treatment guidelines for upper body areas ?
i know that until 3 months i dont have enough hair growth at all…
your saying its better to go in weekley then to wait the 8-12 weeks between sessions? :S
This is the first time I’ve heard that weekly laser or IPL sessions are desirable!! GNBRETT,if you don’t mind, how many laser sessions have you had so far? Cost? Skin condition? How effective? Before and after pictures? How many more do expect you will need?
Dee
dfahey,
Why would you say waiting 8-12 weeks be more desirable then going weekly like GNBRETT is saying? Im not disagreeing just am interested in why with some reasoning and proof so I can make the best decision in my treatments.
Because of hair growth cycles. Sychronization and timing is necessary in order to treat growing hair. I don’t understand GNBRETT’s view on weekly laser sessions. I have never heard of doing that and would think it would be unneccasarily expensive and traumatic to the skin. Is this a new concept for laser hair reduction? I wish he would explain this to all of us as this is a very new concept, weekly lasering, that he has introduced to this board.
Well those are some hard questions to answer since it’s been many years but I’ll do my best. I probably had (25) total treatments on my arms, chest, legs, shoulders. My back was really never that hairy but my chest was. As far as cost I would say that I spend probably $3500. Mind you I knew this tech personally so I dont know what she charged others but I was less. This was 5-7 years ago I think. Atleast (5) years ago for sure. It was the Candela Gentlelase with a (15) spot I think? Again, it was a while ago so don’t quote me. My skin color is ideal. I am very light skinned. My hair is very, very dark so I guess one would call me the ideal candidate.
As far as effectiveness that is really hard to say on all body parts. I had quite a bit of electrolysis on my chest and my chest hair is maybe 40% less hairy (combined with some electrolysis tho) but after the laser treatments alone to be honest with you it appeared to grow back fully everywhere except on the lower part of the front of my shins. My leg hair all grew back just as thick. My arm hair the same. I had a few IPL treatments on my arms and chest. I dont think they did anything to stunt growth. These were at the 4-6 weeks standard intervals which were a complete waste of time and money.
Although with the new FDA approved home treatments I am considering buying either the IPL or laser. I believe that one could be hairless as long as they kept up with it. I mean if even if an IPL was not permanent I know if I had access to say the Estelux I would use it to just keep the hair away, There might be monthly maintance so what it would still be better then looking like a Guerrilla day in and day out. I dont have before and after pics sorry. It wouldn’t matter cause it didnt work for sh!t anyway.
What are your opinions on the TRIA and the Silk’n? I know everyone says the Laser is more effective but would the TRIA be powerful enough to work? Spaced apart weekly I belive it might be but the woman on Good Morning America had better results from the Silk’n atleast on a temporary basis which gets back to what I was sying that the device could be used as a permenant maintance machine at least. I still firmly believe spaced weekly apart the results would be different. The issue is everyone is hung up on the cycle of the hair growth and no one has ever posted or experimented and posted on treating at such short intervals. I guess untill someone experiments no one will know.
Everyone is still so hung up on the hair cycle. If a man shaves his face does the hair grow in the morning? Of course it does. If a man plucks a hair from his face will it grow in a couple of days? Yes it will. People need to think past the hair growth cycle and look at what is going on in the hair follicle shaft itself. Are the cells in the hair follice slowly regenerating in the catagen phase as well? Of course they are. Immediatelly after the hair follicle falls out the cells in the hair shaft begin to generate growth. it might not be visible but it has started. Waiting until the hair has already developed means the cells have already grown and strengthed enough to generate and produce hair.
Thousands of people go year after year to get treatments spaced apart 4-6 6-8 8-10 10-12…whatever someone suggests them to do as being the optimum and correct time to treat the hair. That sequence has been proven time and time again that it dosent work and is ineffective for terminating the cellular growth in the hair shaft. It almost seems like people are afraid to experiment with treating the hairs weekly vs. the standard weeks or months apart. Why? What harm could possibly come from it? Your not going to injure your skin but you will prevent the hair from ever having a chance to begin growth at its earliest phase at the cellular level. No one really knows which hair is in what stage so treat them all weekly and take away the guessing game of which phase is going to be most productive.
One could buy one of the more powerful laser/IPL’s from one of the China websites. Here is the link www.ecplaza.net. Just type in Laser hair removal. Here in the USA you need to have the proper credentials to purchase one. A few people have done it and it’s at a fraction of a price ud pay here. Im not sure what the price is but I am awaiting a response from them on a price. So what do you think of these home devices available now?
Btw, there is a much stronger topical them Emla if you didnt read my other post. I can provide people with the number. I tried Emla. It pails in comparison to this topical by leaps and bounds. Its a $100 a bottle tho.
gnbrett, if you say waiting 8-12 week intervals is not good how can you explain the success that laser is giving me and many others it helped?
Well there are many factors to consider. Your hair type, age, sex, genitics, Immune system, skin color, hormones, medication one may be on, hair per square inch, color of hair, etc… Im not saying that there are not people that have not had success with 8-12 week intervals but do a poll here and ask how many people had permanent hair removal after 6-8 treatements spaced 8-12 weeks apart. If that was the magic number and formula forums like this would not exist and we would not be having this debate 10 years later after the introduction of laser hair removal.
In the areas that you had treated are the hairs 100% gone? If they are then you would be the first case I have ever heard of. I have not posted here in quite a while but have been lurking for many years and the majority of the people are very disappointed and get ripped off with false claims. Even if they only say permanent reduction that is a pretty broad term. If one hair has not returned then they have met that critera.
Think about it. We all know there are (3) phases that the hair grows in. The Anagen phase which is where the
hair growth is the beginning phase of growth and this period for facial and body hair may be as long as two to three weeks but of course that again is dictated by age, genitics, hormones, etc…
The anagen cycle can be subdivided into three what I guess we can call sub-cycles. Those are Proanagen, Mesanagen and Metanagen. Proanagen basically begins the initiation of growth phase with RNA and DNA synthesis. It then goes into the Mesanagen to metanagen phase and onto maximum follicle length and actual growth. I dont want to get to technical about this because there we could post for weeks about it.
Hair is produced by the protein, keratin. Hair follicles grow by collecting old cells and bundling them together. That is the sac-like shape we see in pictures of hair follicles. They exist at the base of a strand which is near the sebaceous gland. This also lubricates each hair strand. We know the coarser and darker the hair is the easier to treat. Dark hair has a higher presence of eumelanin, which absorbs the laser energy and converts it to heat. Heat is what disables the follicle and blood vessels that supply it.
Located at the bottom of all of out hair follicles is the dermal papilla. It is several millimetres below the surface of the skin. The dermal papilla is made up of connective tissue and tiny blood vessels that nourish new hair to grow. This is one of the most important parts of hair, as it contains androgens. As I have said before the hair follicle needs to be disabled at the cellular level and destroy these blood vessels before they have a chance to regenerate. If you assault them weekly they will never have a chance to start the growth phase with RNA and DNA into synthesis. There would be no chance of cell bundlement to begin this growth process.
We dont know which hairs are in which phase and some just get lucky and seem to get treated at an optimum phase and may not have the same restrictions as others such as genitics, hormones, hair type, color, etc. and some will have better results then others. That is obvious.
But if you treat it every week you ellminate the quess work. The hair may techically be described as growing in 3 cycles but the reality is it starts the phase of synthesis as soon as it dies. If the hair is being pushed out then it has be being pushed out by a hair that has already cone thru the RNA and DNA synthesis. How else could it push the dead hair follicle out. The bottom line is we do not know which hair is in which phase.
The whole concept of treating in the growth phase is simply misunderstood. What is misunderstood is when that growth phase begins. If you contine to assault the connective tissue and tiny blood vessels that nourish new hair to grow they will eventually die and so will any future hair growth.
DHT will decay a mans hair follicle. The follicle becomes shorter and thinner and eventually stops developing. If you contine to destroy the blood vessels that supply the hair shaft you would basically mimic what DHT does. Yea, it’s a completly differnt idea and I am completly aware of that but the end result is the same. No blood flow, no hair growth. Tageting the hair when its in its strongest phase (anagen) alone has been proven over and over by million of men and women that that approach has been failing.
Think outside of the box here people. The hair has to have a life line to regrow. Take away that lifeline and it will die.
Without dermal papilla cell stimulation in the hair fibers and root sheaths it will stop growing. That can only be accomplished with continuious assault on the blood supply.
Many may disagree with me or agree. But I can tell you from personal experience that I tried this experiment weekly for 6 months on dark thick and coarse hair on my body and face and it was successful. How many people have actually tried this theory? I have read thousands of posts on this and other boards for years. Think outside the box like Dr. Woods did when pioneered the hair transplant business by removing individual hair follicles and reinserted them in the balding areas. That is the gold standard now vs. being scalped like many clinics still do.
I will be purchasing a laser sooner then later and will demonstate my theory. It worked before, it will work again.
I spend thousands of dallars on laser hair removal and I am the ideal patient. Light skinned and dark haired. It didnt work. Trust me, I wish it did. My body hair is a nuisance like it is for millions of others. The current treatments dont kill the hair follicle. They lighten it, stunt its growth for a while and on occassion disable a few for a few fortunate people. But look at the numbers? They dont lie. No one gets 100% hair removal with the current treaments. I did. It was only on maybe 1% of my body but thats only because I experimented on 1% of my body. Could not afford to do the rest.
This is a great post GNBRETT. By the way, we experiment exactly the way you describe it and have had excellent results, particularly on the male face. However, as you have mentioned, we think that spacing is just one of the factors to consider for laser hair removal.Wavelengths and spot sizes used are also important. Mixing and matching lasers with different wavelengths, spot sizes and energies in my opinion allow us to achieve optimum results.
I agree there are many variations to what is going to produce permanent restults. Your clinic has one of the best reputations around and having an open mind and like I said thinking outside the box is key. Your clinic has some of the top lasers around so I would think that if you guys/gals experimented with what I described you are going to get results that no other clinic is going to get.
I realize that a clinic is there to make a living like any other clinic is but I have kept up with the posts for quite some time now and people seem to be very happy with the results they are getting from your clinic. I really dont believe that if the time between sessions was shortened considerably it would cost a clinic that much more money. But I believe the results could drastically improve. Any clinic has access to the top lasers. There are not difficult to operate but knowing wavelengths, duration between treatments, spot sizes and choosing the most effective laser for the patient is key to any clinics success.
Why dont you guys try an experiment on a few patients. Pick a spot on a patients body and laser it once a week for 6 months or longer and see what happens. Im sure there are plenty of patients that would be happy to participate. Especially ones that are coming often for multiple body parts. Or experiment on someone who works in the office and hit the same spot week after week, month after month and document it with which wavelengths, spot size, machine, sex, hair color, etc… that was used and then photograph it month after month to see if my theory is correct. Im telling you it is. It worked on me because I went against the grain and just didnt believe that the suggested treatment protocal was optimal.
Like I said, the cells that supply the hair shaft thru blood supply begin to generate a lot sooner then we think. Disable the blood supply, disable the hair. Killing it when it is at its strongest point in the Anagen phase will certainly do some damage. We have obviously seen that that it is possible. But damage is not what were after. Termination is the goal. If there was no blood supply going to a limb it would die. A hair follicle is no different.
hi,
has anyone attempted more than one tria session per month? tria recommends treatment every 4 weeks. would more often possibly be harmfull?
-LA
It is a pretty new product and there dosen’t seem to be much info on peoples personal experience with the unit yet. I would have thought more people would have bought, used and posted their results by now. But to answer your question about harming your skin doing it less then (4) weeks I would say not a chance. I used a laser at levels probably (5) times what the TRIA offers on a weekly basis for (6) months and it did nothing to damage my skin on my stomach or face. It did damage the hair follice tho cause they never grew back and that was (5) years ago so id say if ur gonna buy one and use it id use it more often then every (4) weeks but that is up to you.
I think over time you might only have to use it once a month or less. Personally I think the more often you use it the better your results are going to be and the closer ur going to get to permenant hair removal vs. reduction. Of course that depends on ur skin type and hair color first and foremost.
The jury is still out whether or not this unit has enough power to damage the folicle enough for permenant hair removal. Personally I think power is over rated and frequency of use is the one that is under rated. So buy one and try it out every two weeks if that’s what your comfortable with and report back to us with ur results.
GNBRETT, we do have customers that we treat every 10 days on the face ( male ) with INCREDIBLE long term permanent clearance. However, we do this mostly out of love for this field and because we are result oriented.
We have 2 sets of customers. The ones that get regular 6-10 week treatments and the ones that get 1-2 week treatments on an experimental basis. We select these customers based on their previous experiences and results achieved ( or not achieved ) at other facilities.