re: odi, was just wondering if you could elaborate on your comment above; “I have a friend in the business in Israel and when asked about this machine she said there are mixed reviews about it.”… what did your friend mean about mixed reviews - just wondering if you kenw exactly what she meant - e.g. doesnt work/only works sometimes etc etc… any info would be good as im trying to find out as much as possible about this - not that much info on the net… thanks for your help…
Hi Dee,
I’m just wondering how you’re getting on with applisonix. I can so relate to your story after spending a small fortune on laser that didn’t work. I currently wax every third day and am desperate to find something that works on fair hair but I don’t want to waste a load of money if it doesn’t really work.
Thanks. Beauty Boffin.
Electrolysis is what you need. I suspect that laser didn’t work because your hair is too fine or because you used the wrong type of laser at the wrong settings.
We have lots of info on the forum to help you. Only electrolysis and laser are proven to work, but you need someone good to do either and on the right type of hair with the right machine at the right settings in order to get results.
I hate it to death when consumers hopes are raised with new gadgets that defy common sense. I promise though, to be patient and open-minded. Waiting for a year to pass when someone has not done ANYTHING to remove hair after using this gadget as suggested by the maker.
hi beautyboffin, i definetly reckon its worth a shot… the long hairs which used really bother me ahve not come back and I am very happy about that, but as with anything once you seem improvement you get greedy and want more… please remember i have a lot of fine facial hair (if you look at the applisonix videos/manuals, i am the equivalent of what they show for beard),if you are going to try it I would recommend asking them to use level 3 from the start, for ages they were using level 1 on me, level 3 is the best…I am actually feeling a lot more confident and happy in myself lately (hence probably why im posting less)… i know for some people it has worked even faster and better than it has for me… i also think it worth noting bridgetbee and me keep in contact through private posts and she is seeing a lot of progress lately also… waxing every 3 days seems a lot - is it the darker more coarse hair that you have? im also on spironolactone (not to be used on men or women planning to get pregnant) and it has got rid of a lot of my more coarser hair however you do need to be on it a good fe months before you see a difference… for any woman with dark coarse hair i would definetly recommend this… to update everyone else, i am still not plucking /waxing my face just leaving the hairs to fall out naturally… i amhowever waxing my upper lip after treatments and this way i can update if waxing is reallly necessary… i have only had 2 sessions on my upper lip using the waxing after selectif pro treatments, so watch this space… if you are planning on going ahead with it, please contact me and i will try and help you the best i can - e.g what to look out for from the operator - skill, using level 3, hair length etc etc… anyway i wish you the best of luck and yes i would recommend it but like anything dont expect wonders in a few weeks, i have learnt that and am still learning that…electrolysis for em left scarring and didnt work after 8 years, however i would like to add i spent most of those 8 years with the one elctrolygist… but from my experiences overall, i have probably been to about 6/7 overall, and i think it is a very skilled technique and only a minority are very good at it and can give good results - that my experiences, i know a lot of electrolygists on this forum might disagree with me on that (but as i said that is my experience)… im sorry about my spelling, on the way out… i will post properly in next few days… good luck…
beautyboffin, i was in a rush last night when spending this message. I was going out for dinner with my husband… i am a lot happier and confident in myself but i also dont want to make this selectif pro sound like an overnight miracle cure because that is definelty not the case… they say on their website (think 38%) reduction in one treatment. I would like to emphasise this is definetly not the case for me. I have had 8 sessions to date (6 at level 1) and (2 at stage 3)… I have seen about a 30% reduction now or maybe slightly more… i reckon it takes a lot longer than what recommnended on the website. However saying that, it has worked for some people within the recommended number of sessions. I think for anyone looking for the best results, look for an operator who has (1) good hand control and definetly does not touch skin (you can get burns if the operator touches skin and doesnt know what they are doing), (2) using level 3 (im very sorry i didnt use this from the start) and (3) ideally the hairs shouldnt be too long… As i said before i did electrolysis for over 8 years and have never seen any major reduction with it (i.e. the hairs have always came back and during treatment I have never found the hairs to glide out easily (as stated they should on this forum))… At the moment, this is what i do, i have treatments with the selectif pro and then 3/4 days later i get electrolysis done… i dont want to wax my face and am using the selectif pro followed by electrolysis for best results. This forum is a great forum and people obviously do get restuls from electrolysis… in the last 3 months i have a new electrolygist and she seems the most educated about hair regrowth cycles and professional out of all the electrolygists i have seen… instead of plucking with the selectif or waxing, the hairs either fall out after the selectif pro or are removed using the electrolysis… i feel like im giving it my best shot by using both… there are a lot of people on this forum who hugely believe in electrolysis and i am not going to disregard that (even though my past experiences have not been too good for me)… i do realise that this is an expensive way of going about it but i dont want to take any chances of making matters worse… i am however waxing my lip (i find electrolysis too painful on this area and also i think it will be a good test to see if waxing after the selecitf treatments are more effective)… beauthyboffin, if i ws you i would wait a bit longer and follow my story and see how it works for me (especially the upper lip area as i am just getting the selectif pro treatments and waxing here)… the rest of my face i am using the selectif pro and electrolysis… i have only got 2 (level 3) sessions on my upper lip and i will be going every 2 weeks so perhaps wait 3 more months and then see what i report about my upper lip… by then i honestly am expecting a huge improvement on my upper lip and if that is not the case I will be disappointed… just so i remember i will do an overall analysis on my selectif pro treatments on the 14/02/11 (should remember that date valentines day) and i will put it in my calendar to do that… i noticed you said you wasted a lot of money on laser that didnt work for you so i reckon use this forum and i dont mind being the guinea pig/tester for other people… i wasted a lot of money on electrolysis for 8 years and know how it feels to have wasted all that money… anyway i hope some of this info helps… i think it would be better for you to wait a bit longer and see what my results are… i reckon the worse thing you could do is go to a beatician and they say it will take 8 treatments and then you give up after a few not getting progress fast enough… the reduciton seems to happen all of a sudden, first i noticed 10% reduction and then in the last few weeks noticed <30% reduction… as Dfahey said it may all come back, for me i would nt mind infrequent follows up if that did happen… it depends on what you really want from it… who knows what will happen maybe it will never return… anyway please dont heistate to contact me if you want me to answer any questions etc i wish u the best of luck …
Dee, you are brill for sharing all of your experinces and advice with everyone on this forum. I am still getting applisonix treatments and as it is a slow process I have not kept the forum updated with my progress. I am getting reduction but admit that I still get some hairs plucked out after treatment. It’s been 11 weeks since I started treatments and I have not seen much regrowth. I think it’s important not to overtreat and to be patient. Hairs do fall out on their own over a period of 7-10 days so sometimes it feels like there is no reduction and then a few days later you notice an improvement. I am not promoting the product merely just sharing my opinions. I wish I could have found electrologists as skilled as those on this site but they just kept telling me that the hair was too fine and that the follicles would be to hard to find. I really was very disheartened as I was commited to going through as many treatments as would be required to solve my problem. I would be wary of any new technology but I was so desperate for results and so disheartened. I am still massively worried about the hairs growing back. I understand that electrolysis is the most effective method and wish it could have worked out better for me. Good luck to anyone who wants to use applisonix. I will share all that I know if they want.
Yes, too bad you are lacking on the electrolysis side of things. Thanks for posting.
HI all, Recent update on the Applisonix website - creating home use product…
http://www.applisonix.com/userfiles/8470b6f5-cea4-4600-9426-88bbdef74ad7.pdf
@ dfahey
I’m a newbie here so I apologize in advance if I do something wrong.
I just wanted to try to clarify the issue of using hair to conduct energy. I’m an engineer and I’ve been researching the Selectif because I was exploring a similar design myself (and I’m a bashful cheapskate with body hair issues). Unfortunately, after reading Applisonix patent on the Selectif, I see little room for me to make improvements. I learned some things in the mean time so it’s not a total loss.
It’s true that hair cannot conduct electrical energy except in extreme cases that would involve charring and vaporization of surrounding tissues.
However, anything that’s made of stuff, can conduct some kinds of energy. The Selectif uses acoustic energy (sound or ultrasound). This energy is just vibrations.
Think of a string phone; did you ever make one as a kid? I’m talking about two paper cups (or metal cans) with either end of a string firmly attached between the bottoms. If the string is slack, the phone doesn’t work. If you pull the string tight, now what is said in one cup can be clearly heard in the other.
The string will transmit vibration energy when it’s in tension, as will hair. Ultrasound (ultrasonic vibrations) is used, because it can transmit a lot of energy quickly. Basically, if you move the hair up and down quickly enough, the friction generates heat and if it’s enough, it could cause the damage needed to permanently kill the hair cells.
The same idea is commonly used in industrial applications called ultrasonic welders. They use ultrasound to generate frictional heating to weld things together.
Applisonix patent claims conduction of 90% or more of the ultrasound energy. That would certainly be enough to nuke the follicle, but I’ve only started my research, so I don’t know if it’s realistic. It seems plausible…that’s why I started looking into it in the first place. There are many complications and their patent seems to address all the ones I can think of.
Anyway, that’s how a hair can be used to conduct energy.
Welcome to hairtell korkskrew and thank you for your careful explanation. Coming from an engineer like yourself, this holds weight. Questioning something new on the market is only natural. It is very hard to “kill” hair. Proper and sufficient energy is needed. If this product can get enough heat down to the bottom of an obnoxious little hair follicle so as to starve the hair so it doesn’t have the ability to nurture a hair, then this product will make it in the marketplace. What stumps me is, this is called painless. I question that part.
Please keep all of us updated about what you discover with this product. We are in a wait and see mode right now, since the technology is so new.
Thanks!
Dee
The claimed amount of heating of the follicle is similar to what is produced by IPL/laser methods and less than that of thermolysis methods. That suggests the Selectif will probably produce results similar to IPL/laser treatment.
IMO, painless and hair removal don’t belong in the same sentance. Let’s just say that since the heating of the follicle is about the same as IPL but there is no heating of surrounding tissues as there is with IPL, the process of damaging the follicle is probably less painful. The hair extraction probably increases the amount of pain, but I don’t think it will be a lot. The ultrasound will make the extraction substantially less traumatic.
The FDA approval they applied for is called 510K. It means they are claiming that their device is “as safe and affective” as some other similar device that has already been approved for sale. Logically, they would be comparing it to an IPL or laser device and claiming permanent hair reduction. That will take a while and may not be successful because it isn’t very much like a laser. Alternatively, they could claim similarity to something like RF tweezers (in that it won’t do harm). While that is more likely to succeed and allow them to start marketing, that would leave them wide open to scamming accusations and they couldn’t claim permanent results. Without knowing what they are comparing it to, it’s impossible to say.
[i]ETA: Two corrections: In my previous post I said they claim 90% of the energy is transmitted by the hair. I mis-read the patent. They are actualy claiming 90% losses (10% of the energy makes it to the follicle). That may seem like a huge difference, but there are devices that easily produce enough energy so that only 10% is still enough. It just means the heads will wear faster and need replacement more often.
In this post I said they claim heating similar to IPL. They actualy claim heating closer to thermolysis methods. This means results will likely be better than IPL.[/i]
Can you cite the SOURCE, korky?
The patent can be found here: http://www.wipo.int/pctdb/en/wo.jsp?WO=2005079687 (60 pages of legalese with important details sprinkled throughout. Patents are tedious.)
The information about the FDA 510K approval can be found at the FDA site here: http://www.fda.gov/medicaldevices/productsandmedicalprocedures/deviceapprovalsandclearances/510kclearances/default.htm (This is just pure legalese)
The thermolysis temperature range of 70 to 78 degrees celsius (160 to 180 degrees farenheit) is pretty common knowledge and can be found with a google search and a little patience.
I found a really good paper on IPL/laser heating but can’t find it again. I’ve gone through my whole history twice. I’ll keep looking for it because it had a ton of really valuable info in it (for an engineer - things like relative absorption at different wavelengths and stuff), but I’m just going by memory when I say that IPL heating is less than thermolysis. Sorry, no reference for this right now. I’ll post it in this thread if I find it again.
The info about ultrasonic transducers just comes from my general knowledge. I can’t give a reference concerning the Selectif transducer because it is clearly a proprietary part so there would be no published data.
Concerning the veracity of patent claims, I always shine them on a little. They are seldom out-right falsehoods, but often “optimistic”. A patent is to protect the owner from having his idea stolen, not to publish the capabilities of what is patented. Claims are usually stated in broad terms.
ETA: Source that Applisonix is going for the 510K cert is here: http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/phil-spector-the-bald-truth-revealed-1702647.html?action=Gallery (found via the Applisonix news/events page)
I havent checked this in a while but found your posts quite interesting - korkskrew… i am still getting seletif done… my last 4 sessions were at level 3, the first ones were at level 1 (which ive now been told is not as effective etc)…my hair does not bother me as much now and is less, however applisonixs claim of 39% reduction after initial treatment is just not true… i am getting better results on my upper lip than anywhere else… i wax this after the treatments, the other areas i do not wax… i probably have 10-20% of the original hair remaining on my upper lip (maybe less… I will post again after a few more months… it is good to see an enginner on this forum also…
I wonder if you notice a difference in the effectiveness on thicker vs. thinner hairs. Just intuitively it seems a thicker hair can conduct more energy, but there is some wording in the patent and elsewhere that it could be effective on thin hairs too.
Has the person opperating the machine spoken about any special training?
ETA: 30% reduction sounds kind of like follicle temp is below the 70 - 80 degree target. Interesting.
yes korkskrew, i can confirm it works better (or faster) on thicker hairs… my thicker hairs are gone a while now… the lady reckons i have 2 more treatments on my upper lip and then i shouldnt need any more… there has been a reduction on my face, however mine are thin blonde hairs… on the 14th feb, im going to do an overall evaluation of my thoughts on it…the lady reckons im getting good outcomes for my upper lip becasue i waxed it after each treatment to get it in to new growth stage etc… however now i havent waxed in maybe 2 months or so as less each time etc…
Thanks for your continuing updates on this thread dee.
Hi All,
I said I would do a follow up review on the 14th feb, but have just got around to it now (sorry for the delay)…
My uppler lip is nearly complete, have still a few hairs in the very middle bit above my lip (where the dip is) - sorry cant explain this better… i think this is because it harder for the probe to get in there without burning the skin…
I also want to add - it is possible to get burnt with the selectif pro if used incorrectly (this happened to me once when an inexperienced operator was using it)… The selectif should not hurt at all, but in my first session i didnt know what to expect and it was becasue the oeprator hadnt used it much before (and i was the guinea pig), i got a small burn - cleared up pretty quickly though… But for anyone who wants to try this, it should not hurt at all and if it does, get the operator to stop…
overall i do believe this is working but much much slower than what advertised by applisonix… But to be fair, i was using level 1 for ages, it is since i have moved up to level 3 that i have really started noticing a difference… But overall (for me) it is taking longer than what advertised on the applisonix website (even at level 3)…
now to tell you what i have been up to… i have been waxing my lip for the last little while, i have the selectif session every 2/3 weeks on lip and then get it waxed… at the start the hair would be back in those 2/3 weeks but each time it has been less and less… i will probably not get it waxed from here on in so i guess the clock can start from now to see if there is any regrowth…
now with the rest of my face, i have seen reduction but nowhere near the 39% reduction in the initial treatment (as claimed by the applisonix website)… one thing that has happened is all my coarse hair is gone, for me this is a life saving all in its self…
I have very much noticed the selectif works best on coarse hair… other women who started the treatments same time as me (different type of hair though - eg lady in menopause with approx 20/30 coarse hairs chin area - she has now finished all her sessions)…
i beleive that i am a difficult case. I have millions of fine blond hairs (some which grow to very long lenghts and poke out and are very obvious)… i did have a good few coarse ones also when i began but these are all gone now, thank god… however i still have lots of blond fine hair…
overall excluding the coarse hairs, i reckon i would have approx 40% reduction so far… the ones which were coarser are gone and the ones which grew really long are less also… so to me that worth loads… however i would like to emphasise that i am not getting the reduction that advertised on the applisonix website…
The reason i waxed my lip is because i got an email from the distributor saying that was the best way to get the hairs in to anagen phase etc (i cant remember the exact gist of what he was saying but i think it along those lines)… i emailed the distributor ornignally trying to find out more information about the selectif pro and asking lots of details.
i am very happy with my lip… however becasue it was taking so long, i was hesitant to wax the rest of my face… i have been waiting to see if the uper lip has worked… 2 sessions ago i did a wax patch after treatment on a small patch on the side of my face, under my ear… it 5 weeks later so im still waiting for it to grow - anyone know how long it should take to grow back in that area???
so far it has grown back much finer and not as long (although 5 weeks is to little to say about length - time will tell…) I was really afraid that it would grow back dark and coarse, but infact it seems to be the opposite so far… anyone know how long regrowth takes in that area??
i have been in contact with bridgetbee all during the process. she said she has 50% reduction so far… last time i was in contact with samanthajane was in late september and she thinks the selectif is brilliant (her words)… i have tried emailing her since to get updates but in her last email she has said she was moving to england and i havent heard from her since… she gave me her private email so i will try that again…
for those of you who are watching my posts, i hope i am helping you… for anyone who wants to try it, my recommendations are as follows:-
(1) get an operator who has been using it for a while
(2) use level 3
(3) it meant to work better on shorter hair (i was afraid to cut/shave the hairs so i didnt do this step, however did wax my upper lip)- I was weary of this step… perhaps wait and see how i go??
(4) in my beleive it works better on coarser hairs, if youre like me and have millions of fine blonde hairs which can grow quite long, be prepared to spend lots and lots of money…
In the past i did electrolysis for 8 years and i really have to say it was only maintenance for me… for me this appears to eb working better… at least i am seeing a reduction with my treatments, when i was doing electrolysis this was not the case (it was a tidy up at best)…
my overall recommendation for people like me who have the fine long hairs - wait, watch my posts to see what happens… as you can see from my previous posts, i have been very sceptical about cutting/shaving or waxing my face… i know the hairs should be short for the ultrasound energy to go down the hairs shaft - the longer the hair is - the more energy lost… i have ben waxing my lip to test this out for 2 reasons -
(1) so the hair will be shorter
(2) so the hair can regrow and will be in anagen phase (optimal for treatment)
as said earlier my upper lip - i am really happy with, i have now done the test pactch wax on my face and thats what i will be concentrating on now - how the regrowth is on that…
also if i dont wax my lip anymore, i want to see will there be regrowth? these are the things im going to be watching for myself now… if all goes well and im happy with the regrowth (or hopefully lask of) on my uper lip and that patch area, then i will do the selectif treatments and wax my face…
dfahey - you know a lot about hair cycles - how long should i wait for upper lip regrowth (in the past has been 2-3 weeks) and side of face (test patch)- how long do you think?
anyway i hope this info is helping someone… i have been criticised on some other posts i have written up, i am not trying to promote this product, just telling exactly of how it is working for me… I am being very honest and probably even minimising how i feel about selectif becasue i dont want other people to try it and be unhappy with it… i am emphasising that it is taking longer for me than advertised via the applisonix website and the main problems occurring with it i.e decisions on how to make the treatment more effective e.g. having the correct lenth of hair (short) and getting hair in to anagen phase etc…
i do not want to cause offense to anyone… i believe it is important that we discuss new technologies on this forum… i am happy to be a guinea pig for it and relay my experiences. i will be completely honest and try and direct people in the best way…
Well, you are our resident guinea pig here for this product. You are faithful and we appreciate your dedication to this thread.
When you say that you wax your upper lip and the hair is back in 2-3 weeks, that is not the same hair. It is a new batch whose time has come for it to appear on the skin’s surface. If your hair is thin, it will take longer than three weeks for the newly waxed hair to return, perhaps 12-16 weeks if I’m envisioning the hair you are describing. I would think for the waxing you have done, mostly all the new hair coming up should be sychronized and in the anagen stage by now.
Looking forward to more posts in the near and far future. Thank you for coming back dee of Ireland.