scary finding

after reading a post that mentioned the name susan laird, (regarding negative thoughts on LHR) i googled her name.
found this info here…

can anyone debate on this info? this is freaking me out.
<img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/shocked.gif" alt="" />, <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/mad.gif" alt="" /> & <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

check this out too!

some of the claims are correct, but most are exaggerated and some straight out wrong.


–Ineffective on lighter colored hair, or hair that has turned grey-- laser doesn’t work on red, blond, white hair

– Likelihood of inexperienced operators - there are lots of techs out there performing laser who don’t know what they’re doing (and should be avoided as with any other medical or cosmetic procedure). Same goes for electrologists. there are tons that are causing scars and infections etc as well. that’s why you need to look for an experienced one, whichever one you go with.

–laser doesn’t work on some people (this claim is exaggerated again. usually when it doesn’t work, there is a REASON like being treated by a tech described above at too low settings, treating light colored hair, underlying medical issues causing hair growth that are not addressed before laser etc). there is also maybe 10% of ppl who don’t respond for some reason. that’s why it’s advisable not to sign up for a package, but try out a test spot or one treatment first before you commit time and money.

–advertised in excess of outcomes (yes, unfortunately many consumers are overpromised the results because some ppl are out there just to gain profit in whichever way possible and lots of ppl go into laser with too high of expectations. if you know what to expect, you won’t be disappointed)

—FDA will not allow the use of the term “permanent” in describing its effect on hair – yes, but because it doesn’t kill ALL hair for most and not enough studies done yet. but in the same way, the only reason electrolysis is approved is because it was grandfathered in after being around for 100 yrs. there is no real proof there either.

–Earliest modalities of this device have been discontinued – yes, but those were usually IPL machines, like Epilase etc that didn’t work well. Current devices, true lasers, are powerful enough for sufficient removal.

Straight out WRONG:

–Significant possibility of deep tissue scarring and premature aging == HAIR REMOVAL laser doesn’t penetrate deep enough or heat the skin high enough to cause any damage. there are various types of lasers out there. HAIR REMOVAL lasers only penetrate deep enough to kill the follicle, they don’t damage any skin surface. I would even say it’s the other way around, the skin feels smoother and nicer after laser. Think about it. They use these machines for skin procedures as well to get rid of spots, wrinkles etc.

High tendency for re-growth – this is a ridiculous statement. regrowth with proper treatment is not any different from “regrowth” with electrolysis. hair is killed in the same way, in the first stage of growth. so if treatments are done correctly, it’s not “regrowth”. it’s hair that was dormant that is coming out. Same as with electrolysis.

Finally, a note of advice. Laser is taking away a lot of electrologists’ business because it can remove dark coarse hair much faster and more efficiently. Unfortunately, some electrologists use exaggerated claims to bash laser to steer people towards electrolysis. The smart ones, actually get a laser machine so they can work more efficiently on patients overall. Meaning, it’s most efficient to start with laser if you have light skin and lots of dark coarse hair and then finish off the sparse hairs with electrolysis. It’s never a good idea to take someone who has a personal interest and benefits from their statements to take them as a fact. That’s why these forums exist as well so you can determine the truth for yourself. None of us has any personal interest in where you decide to spend your money.

Also, in some cases, electrolysis IS a better way. Those include people with light hair, very dark skin and ligher hair, sparse hair, very fine hair, places where there is only a small amount of hair, some facial hair, etc.

In addition, if you search in the same way for electrolysis, there are tons of horror stories as well. Once again, as with any procedure, it depends on the skill of the practitioner.

thank you for your in depth response to my post. it has made me feel somewhat better. althougth i think maybe i can only lay my worries to rest by more in depth research of my own means (i.e journal articles etc…). do you have any scientific links to back up your views regarding this info or simply where do you get your info? id appreciate it if you do/would. i think i will also contact susan and ask the same of her. i was being quite naive in getting scared by this info, i suppose. i guess some of the info on the site made sense to me. since electro is grandfathered, one feels electro science would know more of what can be expected from electro treatments. where LHR is new and still working things out.and it seems logical that a laser is going to do skin damage of some kind at the temp there set at. i certainly hope the scientists have done very in depth research before guinea piggin us out for faster cash flow. alot seems to be directed toward the $ from all angles nowadays.
ive had LHR done on my abs and feet. i had several treatments done over the course of almost 2 years. i stopped for six months, cause i was satisfied with results. but the hair grew back and it seems like LHR has prolonged the growth cycles ( hair grows longer). my skin now feels dryer and doesnt seem to look as youthful in these areas.

LHR seems to have removed some of the hair. not the 80% promised. and i did have a long hair free period which was nice. im 23 and female, also an ideal candidate for LHR. i had my treatments done @ sona medspa. i have gone back to LHR, which im beginning to regret. after being naive and too trusting of LHR. and also after reading posts on various forums about LHR and not hearing many positive outcomes. this time im having happy trail, feet and full bikini treated. but may stop this.
thanks to all for their input on this site. and big thanks to the maker. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> im grateful for this site and others like it. its a wonderful thing and has helped me out alot.

there have been absolutely not reports of any 5 o’clock shadows or trapped hair after laser on these sites. if anything, it’s the OTHER WAY AROUND. that’s what my personal experience indicates as well. Both of these issues are usually associated with waxing.

information can be found online, on these forums, through various articles etc. btw, sona medspa is a chain clinic and has a weird timing between sessions policy which is not consistent with the way professionals recommend to do them in order to achieve the best clearance. how many treatments did you have? with what laser? at what settings?

If you read more, you’ll find that she implies (and in fact, used to actually claim) that all electrolysis (and all other electrologists) is bad, too, unless done by her. Basically, all those scare stories are a sales tactic in order to frighten you into flying from wherever and going to treatment with her. I was especially amused by her assertion that everyone who undegoes thermolysis ends up with horrible skin damage. Not true, none of. Just recognize it for the sales gimmick that it is. There are a lot of TS people out there more than willing to prey upon the insecurities of other TS people, and I think that’s the case here.

I agree. As someone who’s been undergoing both laser and thermolysis treatments for almost a year, and having done lots of research before getting into both, I can assure you that none of these effects are true in the way that she presents it. people do whatever they need to to sell their services, some at the expense of honesty.

i believe that the “scary findings” about lasers as described in that site you mentioned are absolutely true.
i’ve experienced them myself. it’s been 2 years since i had it on my face (candela alexandrite gentlelase). my skin has dramatically worsened. premature aging, huge pores, lost elasticity, sagged + more hair than ever! just stay away. the damage wont show immediately it takes a while, but that lady whoever she is, is absolutely right. it boils the collagen deep down. it doesnt show as a burn, like a sun burn, the skin looks fine, but the damage is done underneath and there is no way to correct it.

Vanessa80 how old are you out of interest?

Laser hair removal has been around for many of many years now what 8+… if it had the effects you describe. Believe me, it would be well publicised and there would be an outrage about it. These companies have strict guidelines interms of laser approval and production, if they had those negative side effects it would well and truly be out in the open.

Chances are the effects you describe have nothing to do with laser, most probably because you have a poor diet, your aging anyway, smoke, u stay out in the sun etc etc.

In my opinon anyway, laser should never touch the face…just stick to electro there.

If you believe that, you should do some research on the history of X-Ray Hair Removal in the United States. You want scary? Cosmetic procedures leading to radiation poisonings being ignored by the government is plenty scary.

Electrolysis was NOT granfathered in. It had to prove itself to the medical world in the 1800’s, and also on a state by state basis in the 1900’s. It was not so easy to pay off one small list of people and get your way back then. You had to take your dog and pony show on the road, and hope you could convince every agency on every level and locality one at a time.

I believe we are more knowledgeable than ever before interms of medicine etc. We have alot more knowledge and medical advancments compared to in the past. Our standards are different, our standards are alot higher.

Its comparing two completely different things, in two completely different circumstances.

There is a risk with anything new I have no doubt about that, but interms of long term effects 8 + years is really a fairly long period of time to make a judgement.

I know electro is tried and proven, and I strongly believe in the modality.

But you cannot compare this to something that happend 100 + years ago.

rest assured:government will protect you. when are people going to realize that laser does nothing but damage the skin???

james you are so great. i wish i had listened to you back then. i thought you were just one electrologist sabotaging LHR but you were so damn right

It is like “The Governator” said it, “Hear me now and believe me later.”

There is no one who wants there to be a faster way to SAFE, reliable, predictable, comfortable, permanent, hair removal than me and a host of electrologists the world over.

I have the same problem with Light Amplification by Stimulated Emission of Radiation as I have with the promotion of Gastric Bypass Surgery for weight loss. It is something that makes a lot of money for a few people, while giving an unreliable result to those who undergo the procedure, and furthermore, there is a safer way to do it. That safer way may not be glamourous, it may not happen overnight, and it doesn’t have a billion dollar push to keep it in front of your face on the news and infotainment shows, it just exists in quiet.

I feel for those who get bad treatment no matter if it is from an electrologist or a LASER person, or any other professional. I even feel for the people who are taken in by companies pushing products on the public, and practitioners and distributors who find themselves invested up to their eyeballs in something they slowly find out is not what the salesperson told them it would be.

I just don’t understand how you see the fact that Electrolysis has had MORE time to prove its worth to be a negative. It only took X-Ray Hair removal a few years to start to have negative side effects, but there was no “conclusive word” on its harmfulness for nearly 20 years. Even after World War 2 the US government did not outright outlaw x-ray hair removal. You could get a treatment right up until 1976 if you so dared, even though it was known that women had lost their hair, and their jawbones to the procedure. Surely it was outlawed in 1976, right? A little late, but at least it happened, right? Um, NO! That last machine finally broke, and no one would take on the liability of reparing it!

The government will protect you.
Saccharine is harmless, then it is illegal, then it is legal again, and good for you.
Wood Alcohol is poison, but Aspartame is safe to put in your body even though it becomes wood alcohol at 86 degrees and your interior temperature is much higher than that.
The seat belt and cell phone laws sweeping the US are about protecting you and not insurance company profits.

I leave you with a song from Steve Perry and Journey: Don’t Stop Believing.

There is a risk with anything in life. That is life.

Personally, I have had now 4 laser treatments. Regardless of the results I see I am stopping, because of the money I have set aside is used. I was going to stop after 3 but I decided to go one more.

A few months ago I started electrolysis on my back, because the hair is finer however I was not happy with my tech. So, I have decided to find a new one. My skin reaction was not that great.

I can say my skin has not changed in anyway or form since having the laser treatments. I would not dare to go on to having 10 + treatments of laser, just because I agree there is an unknown risk.

Yet, after about 8 months since my first treatment My skin is the same. There are always unknown elements to something that is ‘new’. However James are you saying that LASER causes deep tissue damage and premature aging? Just to clarify this? Is that your opinion?

Lastly, I would not dare having laser on my face under any circumstances even if I was female, other than a really small section. I know a lady who has had part of her face done and is extremely satisfied…However, I would choose electrolysis. This part of the body if messed up really cannot be covered. I do not see the point in taking a risk like that, even when so far risks seem minimal.

On the one hand, there is the roll of the dice that sometimes comes up permanent scarring. So in that way, LASER is like the girl who gets the toungue ring and is the one person she knows who ends up with the side effect of loosing use of some of her facial muscles due to her fashion desires. Or the Botox lady who can’t show emotions on her expressionless face.

As for the other part, even many doctors I have talked to say that LASER use is like a concentrated sun burn and multiple treatments can’t help but change the skin. What will we be finding 20 and 30 years down the line? Who knows, but I know that no one would recommend sun burning every 4 to 6 weeks as safe behavior for beautification of the skin.

The studies on LASER seem to be purposefully too short to give any real information. Does anyone know of a study that even purports to have followed anyone from the first treatments when clearance was first given up to today?

I have also seen lots of “pebbling” of the skin, where after LASER treatments, people seem to have something that looks similar to a football cover pattern under the skin’s surface, or even an actual pebbling of the very skin’s surface itself. I have also seen people with distorted white monster follicles who have developed “shingles” over the hair to make their electrolysis even harder. I know the LASER did that, because in two cases, these people consulted with me BEFORE LASER, and came back to me after their LASER tragedy to fix them up.

I conceed that I am in the perfect position to see more (only?) the bad after effects of LASER, because those who would be coming to me AFTER LASER would tend to be people who did not get what they wanted, but it still leaves me asking, “Would I want my mother, grandmother, daughter, cousin, or worst enemy to have this happen to them?”

The other problem is that when I studied LASER, I could never find the answer to the question, “How do you make sure that you don’t have scarring and negative skin change?” The instructors always said some vague thing like, “You just make sure that the right settings are used in the right situation, for the skin that person has.” There was never a formula, there was nothing but, “Give this a try, and if it works, cool, and if it doesn’t, test it at a higher/lower setting”

So I am coming out of the closet here. In the 80’s and early 90’s, I wanted to do both LASER and Electrolysis. Whereas some of my friends did it, and some of them went LASER only, I stepped back because I never found the thing to be as safe and fully tested as electrolysis.

One of my friends ended up giving a whole year’s worth of LASER clients their choice of cash refunds, or free electrolysis treatments to completion (what integrity, I will work for free until YOU say I don’t owe you any more), another lost her thriving 3 office business and now works for doctors doing LASER for them, because although she no longer believes in it the way she once did, she does like the fact that you make way more money per minute, you don’t get achy muscles and she is now just responsible for showing up, clicking the machine, and going home.

Thank-you for your reply James.

However laser is in a different wave length to uv rays therefore it is not the same as sun burn in that way. However, I do see the relation you are making. In away its similar to burning your skin with a flame or fire…if you kept doing it it would not be great for the skin. Completely understand.
Please correct me if I am wrong, but laser is at a different wavelength to what the sun produces?

But I do get what your saying. I would never offer my skin up to multiple multiple treatments. However, I do not see how 4 treatments will ever drastically change my skin.

Time will tell.

You are correct, LASER is a different wavelength. However, it should be considered that in the last ten years, we have found out that ONE sunburn in your whole life changes your skin for the rest of your life, and that repeated burns, even years apart pick up where the others left off.

I am more worried about the fact that stuff like this is not getting the kind of research it should (why isn’t there a study to compare the difference between sunburns and LASER treatments?) than the fact that many people are doing these treatments. When we find out, we will find out, but in the mean time it is the customers who are paying their money and taking their chances.

reply from another site on a similar topic:

“It isn’t the same. The sun emits very short rays (ultraviolet) that targets some cells in the skin, turning them into necrotic cells that emit free radicals. These free radicals actually affect the DNA of the skin causing latent damage and wrinkling. The lasers operate in the “red range” and affects nothing in the skin except pigment and moisture. The lasers that target pigment only are probably the safest.”