Recurring Questions

Didn’t catch the “idea” thing - but understand that a member’s only discussion board is for member’s only. Not sure why we would want to place hairtell posts there…

As far as I know they were deleted permanently and cannot be restored. The new volunteers (officers) don’t really keep up on the discussion board - as this type of networking is not for everyone. I would not have deleted those old posts, but nobody asked me. When I became involved again - I said “we keep the posts indefinitely.” As far as I know - the deletion thing has only happened one time - not counting the switch from public to private discussion.

Discuss or criticize?

Now Arlene, I don’t know if you remember that I was sitting next to you during that lecture and was also shocked. You asked me who/what that drawing looked like and I said it looked like my grandmother and my father! I know we couldn’t have been the only ones who though that speaker was inappropriate…

I do know that it is difficult to find enough good speakers for these events. I’ve also read the reviews after the convention and half want no more “of this topic” and half want it every time. I’ve provided the names of at least 3 speakers that would be appropriate for convention - but none have ever been contacted… These volunteers, they do the best they can…and try to remain positive.

I reserve the right to do both. I was a member of the organization long enough to see certain things that many were not privy to. I don’t claim to know the inner workings of your current board, but many of the criticisms that people like myself level at the group are still valid.

One good criticism is that the very structure of the “who can give a CEU certified lecture” creates the ridiculousness that someone like the woman described above is eligible to give a CEU lecture, on a subject that is so tertiary that it defies logic, while many much more qualified people are not allowed to give CEU lectures on the actual work that we do. This is true, even as all the convention sheets say that more hands on training would be welcome, or more visual depictions of good treatment protocols, and hands on time with different machines and tools of the practice.

I understand that you feel protective of the organization, and at the same time, verily I say unto you, that if we did not care at all, we would not bother criticizing or discussing it at all.

Eugenics? Seriously, had I been at that “talk” I would have thrown something at the speaker. Eugenics was bad science that became useful for various racists, including the Nazis. What the hell were people thinking? Didn’t anybody research this pathetic pseudo-science (actually mostly anti-Semitism wrapped in “science.”)? Google Eugenics for the full story — you don’t want to miss this one.

You know…it is my feeling protective of AEA. I see how hard these volunteers work - and how much they want this organization to contribute to improving the worlds view of electrolysis. I also see how much they have changed from the old “fear-based” views. They are not the same organization that existed 10 years ago!

Regarding the credentials to present CEUs…this will be addressed at the upcoming board meeting.

When asked (by Arlene, right?) if this was eugenics, I think the woman said something like, “Oh no. That’s not what this is about.” Her “point” was that electrologists could determine what kind of communication a client would need to “buy” our services based on things like nose shape. That the large-nosed person would not easily part with their money, while the button-nose person would spend freely. In my family, the nose shape and size have nothing to do with spending freely - for example, my sister with the little button nose is tighter with her money than my large nosed father…

I’m not defending this speaker - I’m just reporting what I recall about the lecture.

I highly respect those that volunteer for ANYTHING. I respect them even more when they volunteer and then have to dodge darts in the process.

Whatever happened in the past with convention topics or unresolved personal spats, is in the past, and hopefully, lessons were learned to make a better way. New volunteers are on board and I do think this group listens to the members. I was in ultimate disbelief when the discussion forum topics were deleted to “keep the board fresh”. That AEA forum was an updated textbook full of good information and then it was wiped out? Not to mention that many of us spent so much of our time volunteering to participate, typing thousands of words. Not having James as a contributor to that board is a great loss. When the thread on breast implants and credit cards disappeared that made me sick inside. Gone. WHEN I ASKED WHY THIS HAPPENED AND IF THE BOARD COULD PLEASE RECONSIDER NOT DOING THIS IN THE FUTURE, the board met and responded positively, within a couple days. Now we can expect this not to happen again and something was learned. They were responsive to my concerns as a member. When rules of the board were broken, action was taken, same as what happens on any board. Hard feelings? Sure, but there have to be guidelines for behavior.

I think we need the AEA and there is a way to “fight” and “disagree” so as not to do harm to destroy a structure of volunteers that are willing to do the hard work of representing the good news about electrolysis care. Organizations are made up of personalities. Some years, the group of personalities are going to be arrogant and gruff and some years the group of personalities are such where they try very hard to correct the past failures, while looking onward to the future. I think this is what Barbara is trying to convey and we should applaud her.

Lastly, I secretly hope that there will be a way to get James to participate in a teaching role, whether through writing articles for the Journal of Electrology or doing hands on practical presentations at AEA conferences or state conferences. We have new tools and techniques in the 21st century that he understands well. The core of what we do revolves around the hairy person that needs relief asap. If there are improved ways to do this, the AEA members need to at least be open to the idea to have it presented. We all need each other and any differences should be either resolved or forgiven, so we can move together in a positive direction.

Um, yeah. That “science” is a well known “defense” for anti-semitism. I cannnot believe someone in the USA was allowed to present it at anything considered professional.

Arlene, who was the lecturer? Do you remember her name and the title of her presentation? What year? Does she have a book on this subject? Barbara, you are welcome to respond to my curiosities, too.

I highly doubt that the AEA’s intention with this speaker, whoever it may have been, was to support eugenics. Come on! Please give people the benefit of the doubt. It probably had more to do with the ancient art of physiognomy rather than eugenics as exposed on this evil page http://www.eugenics.net/

From http://face-and-emotion.com/dataface/general/homepage.jsp

Science Of Physiognomy

Controversy typically surrounds issues related to physiognomy. One reason might be the history of pseudo-scientific and discredited fads, such as phrenology, that associated physical and psychological characteristics without adducing credible evidence, and the implausibility of much of their claims. The ascription of a personal character to a physical feature of the face can be cast into a “biological determinism” framework, or can invoke associations with socially sensitive areas of race characteristics, etc. These views are antithetical to a dominant American viewpoint of social and environmental determinants of social standing. Yet, despite reservations, one must ask why physical facial characteristics should not be correlated with certain psychological traits. After all, both are the products of the same forces: 1) the interactions that the individual has with the environment, and 2) the person’s biological inheritance.

Like many of the subjects of ancient philosophy, physiognomy became a topic for empirical investigation and scientific attention during the Enlightenment. As with other issues regarding the face and expression, little progress was made by early researchers. Because of the ill repute that various practitioners of physiognomy and phrenology cast over this area, most serious investigators have eschewed these topics for the last century. Many of the underlying questions posed by physiognomy have remained unanswered, and this void has attracted some recent attention. The following paragraphs discuss the scientific aspects of physiognomy.

Are Inferences Based On Physiognomy Accurate?

Some scientific evidence supports the connection between facial characteristics and psychological and other traits. No doubt, some facial appearances are diagnostic of certain genetic diseases, such as Down’s Syndrome and the DeLange Syndrome (see the Facet of Diseases), and some congenital diseases such as fetal alcohol syndrome. These diseases also have psychologically relevant correlates, thus mediating correlations between facial and psychological characteristics. Likewise, males and females differ in some general facial characteristics (e.g., proportionate size of chin) and also differ in certain psychological traits, providing the basis for other, general correlations between facial features and psychological characteristics. Similar processes could operate in less obvious ways to create correlations in other respects. How specific these relations may be, and their magnitude, is still being explored. Many psychological studies have shown that people who judge faces share a consensus about what traits the face reveals, but often there is no evidence about whether these judgments are accurate (valid) or not. Research evidence shows that people are able to make judgments about others based on their face with some degree of accuracy (validity) for some psychological traits, including extraversion, conscientiousness, agreeableness, dominance, Machiavellianism, sexual availability, and intelligence.

Relatively baby-faced woman (Left.) with round face, large eyes, small
nose, short chin, versus a relatively mature face (Right.) that is more
angular, has a longer chin, and larger nose. Other baby-faced
characteristics (not visible here) include eyes relatively lower on the
face and eyebrows higher on the forehead. These models are roughly
equal in attractiveness. Males also can have baby faces.
The social psychologist Leslie Zebrowitz offers a lengthy argument for another, more complex way in which physical facial characteristics can be associated with psychological traits. Her general claim is that a person’s facial appearance can affect one’s choice of environment, which, in turn, causes certain psychological traits to develop, thus creating a link between facial features and psychological traits. A likely mechanism for how people learn and respond to these links is overgeneralization, i.e., a tendency to apply a judgment based on partial or inadequate cues. She illustrates her argument with two widely studied phenomena, the babyface overgeneralization and the attractiveness halo. In regard to the babyface overgeneralization (see the Facet of Attractiveness for a discussion of the attractiveness halo), her argument begins with the fact that the faces of babies have characteristic features, such as relatively larger eyes, smaller chin and lower mouth, as illustrated in the image on the left. Many behavioral science studies have shown that people react in predictable, far-reaching ways to these babyface features, even when these features appear in adults (an overgeneralization). For example, they judge the babyface feature of relatively wide eyes as indicating more honesty and naivete, consistent with a traditional physiognomic view. Another line of research studies has shown that people actually do tend to have jobs that are consistent with stereotypes about the meaning of their facial features. For example, baby-faced adults tend to be over represented in “women’s work” jobs, and baby-faced military officers tend to be weeded out early. Such results are probably due to a combination of the person’s free choices and a selection process based on the decisions (biases) of others. This kind of evidence is consistent with the theory that facial appearances, interacting with social factors, cause traits to develop, perhaps following a self-fulfilling prophecy effect, or a self-defeating prophecy effect, and she discusses evidence that supports such causal links. One valid relationship, for example, is between baby-facedness and the Big Five trait of agreeableness. She also discusses the possibility that traits produce facial appearances.

In summary, the answer to the question “are judgments based on physiognomy accurate?” is “yes and no.” Certain patterns of facial features can be highly associated with psychological characteristics in special circumstances, such as diseases. Other features have a statistical relationship to psychological traits, but are often wrong in specific cases. Many stereotypes about what facial features reveal are not accurate. Still other physiognomic attributions are merely arbitrary and as fallacious as purely random judgments.

The lecture was in October, 2006, in Newark, NJ.
Is it possible that videotape of this seminar exists.

In any event, I have no personal interest in rewriting history.

I do not remember the name of the speaker, but since it was an AEA event, if you are very interested, it is probably on record with the organization.

Oh, thank you very much, Arlene! You are right - no need to re-write history. These are the kind of things that deeply hurt groups of people and more over, lead to world events that none of us ever want to repeat. My point was to seek out more information so as to be be very fair to what the intentions were of the speaker and the AEA - and I feel pretty secure in knowing that eugenics was not the underlying mission of inviting her to lecture.

Be well,

Dee

She showed a face with a large nose and said that this client showed the physical characteristic of a person who would likely not spend much money.
She showed a face with a cute button nose and said this client showed the physical characteristic of a person who would likely spend money.

Call it what you like folks. I call it Eugenics.

Not to have a debate here on eugenics, but I equate the evil of eugenics with ideas of equality, low IQ / bell curve, forced and unforced sterilization. Face reading, as ancient, unethical, unscientific and plain silly as it seems, is not eugenics by the true definition, but you say it is. Maybe you can convince me it is. I’m ready to learn. How did the other AEA members in the audience react to this? Any walkouts or throwing?

I do not want to pressure anyone, but the issue which caused this thread has drifted far from the original idea. FAQs in the section of Electrolysis is still lacking and this is a real shame.

Michael! Just wanted to check in with you in regards to these FAQs :slight_smile: