Hi, thank you so much for your response to my other post. The aloe feels SO good on my scabby, irritated skin.
My question is simply this:
I’m a 25 year old girl with patchy, dark and coarse facial hair throughout the chin, sideburn, neck and cheek area. I just had my first LightSheer appointment as you’ve read. I’m starting to think, after having read a lot more on this site, that laser simply isn’t worth the trouble when electrolysis is much more effective. Pain doesn’t concern me at all, I’d gladly walk on nails to rid myself of this problem… I just want it gone. I don’t have a ton of money to spend but I’m willing to do what it takes. My practitioner does electrolysis too. Should I just switch? It just seems a lot more effective and long lasting… why should I bother with laser when it looks like it’s a big… MAYBE!?!
Should I give laser a few more sessions? Is it worth it?
Hi, thank you so much for your response to my other post. The aloe feels SO good on my scabby, irritated skin.
Recent studies have shown that laser can make more hair grow in places where it never has grown before. This was disscussed here:
With the hair problem you describe, I would suggest to se your endocrinologist to conduct tests for hormonal levels. It’s possible that your hormones are the culprit. Always good to be safe.
Oh, and laser never promised to be a method of permanent hair removal. It is universally oversold as such, but it is completely false. Read www.hairfacts.com on the effectiveness of lasers. Andrea has some good clinical data showing how much is expected to regrow. The only thing I would add, is that those studies examined relatively short term effects. The FDA did not test what will happen with your hair and your skin a few years down the road.
[QUOTE]Originally posted by yb:
<strong>Recent studies have shown that laser can make more hair grow in places where it never has grown before. This was disscussed here:
http://www.hairtell.com/cgi-bin/ubbcgi/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=43;t=000647</strong>[ /QUOTE]Do you have any references? Any publications?
</font><blockquote><font size=“1” face=“Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif”>quote:</font><hr /><font size=“2” face=“Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif”>Originally posted by nolagirl:
<strong>I just had my first LightSheer appointment as you’ve read. I’m starting to think, after having read a lot more on this site, that laser simply isn’t worth the trouble when electrolysis is much more effective. Pain doesn’t concern me at all, I’d gladly walk on nails to rid myself of this problem… I just want it gone.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size=“2” face=“Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif”>I am not going to tell you if Laser or Electrolysis is better.
But, a kind advice,
don’t listen to those who try to tell you (directly or indirectly) something like “Laser won’t work at all”, “all hair grow back after Laser”, “laser causes cancer”, or even link laser to radioactivity.
There are examples of Laser does not work, and people switch to electrolysis; also examples of electrolysis does not work, and they switch to Laser.
My other advice, go to professional clinic, not beauty salon for your hair removal needs.
With good treatment there is no hair that won’t be permanently removed by Electrolysis the first time it is treated. The problem clients find is that it is not usually possible to clear out every last hair they want removed in a short enough time to allow for one to get to looking finished and then get each and every hair as they come in for the first time thereafter. If this were done, one would never have another appointment after 9 months assuming one did not have a medical condition that has new hair growth in previously non-hair growing follicles as a result.
L. A. S. E. R. has never been able to say just what it can deliver in a way that a person paying for the treatment can know what to expect. It is a roll of the dice what your result will be, and how long it will last. G-d bless the people who get their desired results with L. A. S. E. R. alone, and G-d help those who have less than happy results.
When I do a consultation with a client, I know what to tell that client to expect. I can give them a reasonable idea of what that client’s personal program will need to be, and if we follow that program, we can clear up all work in that area in 9 months. If we won’t be able to follow the most aggressive plan, I can ballpark the number of hours over time we will need to get done, and the client can make it a priority or not.
L. A. S. E. R. can not tell any client how much reduction will result from treatment. It can’t tell a client what the effects on the color of that client’s skin will be. It can’t tell the client if the result of that big investment and six week healing process will be smoother skin, or skin full of thicker, whiter, distorted hairs, or if the result will be stimulation of many thin black hairs from previously non hair growing follicles.
I just don’t like all the ifs and maybes this thing has for the money one needs to put down in order to try it out.
I have a client who came to me for eyebrow work one spring. We worked a small number of hours spread out from February to July. A change in employment had him move out of state, and ended his electolysis treatments. (He did not find any of the practitioners in his new area lived up to his expectations) He visited me on a trip to Buffalo to visit with friends and told me with a laugh that he was not sure that electrolysis worked as he watched his unibrow fill in during the winter, but now every year it disappears during spring, stays clear for summer, and bushes back up for winter. He says he will keep it that way, as he doesn’t mind the extra hair in winter, as he lives in a cold climate state with bitter winters. He got what he wanted. He looks good during the months when he is out in the summer party scene. I did not have to give him any more “Ifs” other than, “You will have full total permanent removal IF you get the volume of treatment needed, properly spaced for permanent removal based on the growth cycles of the hair you wish to be permanently without.”
I just hope that you don’t have a practitioner who is unwilling to respect your wishes to switch to electrolysis only due to an unwillingness to go the extra mile that hair by hair removal represents.
[ March 28, 2004, 09:53 AM: Message edited by: James W. Walker VII, CPE ]
The middle of the eyebrow is an appropriate place to try Electrology. Any area larger than that is a roll of the dice, because in all likelyhood the pain and snail like progress of the treatments will force you to abandon the idea of becoming hair free in that area. As I read the Electrology section, the vast, vast mojority of people, especially people trying to remove hair from their faces, are hopelessly frustrated with the process, and being told over and over and over again that it is because of the pactitioner or their lack of patience. If it is, in fact, their practitioner or their lack of patience, this can only be due to the false expectations they were given as to treatment results. You hear the Electrologists on this Forum talk about Electrolgy, and then compare that to the majority of comments and stories on the Electrology section, and judge for yourself. It may be permanent, but getting to your goal might not be possible for most people.
What you have said is terribly misleading and is thus a diservice to the inquiring consumer. Nonetheless,your opinion has been registered,----again.
Any area larger than the middle of the eyebrow is a roll of the dice for electrolysis? Totally, totally, absolutely false. Many areas of the face and body are successfully treated permanently with electrolysis. I would strongly encourage any consumer that reads hairtell.com to peruse the laser and electrolysis site carefully for a couple hours or more, and you will definitely come away with a clear understanding of what is permanent and what is long term temporary. No method is perfect in 2004, but one of the two is more permanent than the other,if performed by a competent practioner and a cooperative client.
False expectations? Sounds like the hype of laser over the last 8 years. You’ve had how many treatments with how many different kinds of lasers over the past 5-6 years and at what cost? By the way, thanks for agreeing to post in a couple weeks your results with the new Aurora, that you’ve had treatments with over the past year. I’ll be anxiously waiting to hear from you in 2 weeks.
Back to false expectations. The electrologist should be affirming to their clients on that very first consult that electrolysis:
- TAKES TIME (3 hair growth cycles at least)
- TAKES EFFORT (show up consistently for your appointments)
- TAKES RESTRAINT (stop tweezing and waxing)
I reinforce this message of time and consistency and restraint frequently until they eventually verbalize to me that they understand what the journey will be like. Nothing makes my eyes roll more than a bearded lady asking why she isn’t hair-free after 5 treatments. I muster up some patience and repeat my consult. If that doesn’t help, I encourage her to find another method of hair removal, as I am too busy with clients that understand the sacrifices they must make in order to reach a goal. False expectations only come with those that have the ‘McDonald’s’ approach to hair removal.
The goal of permanent hair removal IS possible for savvy people who understand what it takes to reach that goal. In some cases, reaching the goal is not difficult. In other cases, the amount of obstacles that both the client and electrologist must encounter does make it more difficult, but certainly not impossible.
After attending a continuing education course today on the Endocrine System and what role hormonal imbalance and disease plays in the practice of electrology, I came away thinking how noxious and resiliant the human hair really is, especially that androgen driven man hair. The body does a better than excellent job of fighting forward to maintain hair where you don’t want it. If there is an imbalance, it’s not unlikley that for every hundred hairs the electrologist removes, there’s 200 hairs being stimulated underneath. That doesn’t mean electrolysis doesn’t work, rather it means the obstacle is a lot larger.
Either you and your electrologist are in a partnership to bring a desired result, or you’re not. If it is too slow-going and painful for you, then go find another method to remove the hair. Facial hair is tough hair, indeed, but there are many successes and many satisfied consumers, dear redhead. So, just your saying that reaching a goal for area’s bigger than the mid-eyebrow is not possible for most people, JUST AIN’T SO. Who’s hyping who?
You can sound bitter and negative for your own experience, but I would encourage you to think bigger and taller for those that may have a better set of circumstances for their hair removal experience than it appears you have had.
O.K., maybe I went overboard a little in my description of Electrology, and for those reading my post I encourage you to try and find someone like James if you feel that Electrology is right for you. However,someone very close to me lately had devoloped a hair problem on her face because of a medical proceedure. She was reffered to an Electrologist to take care of the problem and I remained silently supportive. After a 3 or 4 months I asked her how it was going, and she told me that she had given up and was doing waxing and sugaring, which was also a nightmare. She told me that she could not endure Electrology and was very upset and confused as to how that could be any kind of reasonable option. I say that if someone is unable to endure Electrology, then it fails as permanent hair removal. It is not the consumers fault, it is Elecytrologies failure. If someone can’t finish the treatments, then Electrology did not permanently remove hair. Every single person that posts about Electrology not working for them, for whatever reason, experiences a similar form of failed permancy as failed Laser. It just happens in a different way. Both methods also have plenty of success stories. If anyone is misleading consumers, it is The Electrologists on this Forum constantly bashing Laser. By bashing I mean exagerating statistics, highlighting negative experiences, ignoring or belittling positive experiences, and completely misunderstanding how suggesting totally speculative negative longterm effects is a dissruptive and underhanded tactic that undermines their sincere desire to be helpful. I agree with you that I paint a negative view of Electrology in my above post, but it is a direct response to the relentless and tiresome barage of biased negativity being delivered by you and your peers about Laser. While James and you are often correct in many ways about Laser being overpromised, you overshoot the mark constantly in a NEGATIVE direction, and I feel you are misleading consumers down the wrong path. If anything, I think I should speak out more often when you guys recommend Electrolgy on large areas, but I’m actually not the disruptive type, despite what you try to say about me. Just remember, that when you point a finger you have three pointing back at you.
I should also add that I am no huge fan of Laser either. Aside from the fact that it doesn’t work well on my hair color (thanks Dee for pointing out my less then steller results in past treatments), I hate the way it burns my skin. It can be very brutal at times on certain areas, although the worst hyperpigmitation I ever got was with Electrology (the man had been practicing for 30 years so go figure). Now that I’ve had treatments with the Aurora, I see just how harsh Laser is in comparison. And yes, I will give an update in a week or two as to the Aurora’s effectiveness and percieved shortcommings thus far.
[ March 28, 2004, 06:47 PM: Message edited by: redhead ]
Here is a post that I just read on another Forum and thought it might add something to this thread…"it has been almost two years since my lastreatment and i had about 35% return overall… not bad! especially since i have a defineit hormonal issue (the MDs say I am “normal”!)
Anywho… I had a a really great treatment… very thorough… and went back the next day for touchups. My tech said she had been thinking of me… so it was also very personable…
I had my entire face done… (upper/lower lip, chin, jaw, throat, cheeks, etc) and was charge $185
She used Candela GL, a 12 mm spot, and a 40 joules fluence. I asked what she used in the first treatments and she said 15mm at 30 joules.
I have some very stout white hairs and she told me that after LHR treatments they respond extremely well to electrolysis, much better than if they hadnt been LHR’d… so I am looking forward to that. I am starting to think this stuff really works…"
I certainly empathise with your attempts in relation to your hair removal outcomes. Some outcomes have been positive and some proceedures have been disappointing for you. Your strategizing and educating yourself as to what is best for your particular hair color, pain level, time commitment, and area of removal, has certainly been a journey for you. I appreciate how you have been a ‘laser pioneer consumer’ and have CONSISTENTLY reported back to all of us on this site, with honestly, about your attempts with hair removal with different kinds of lasers and electrolysis. All was done with your hard earned money and you are unlike many others who post here with glee how their first, second, third laser treatment was great and then they drop the ball and do not follow up 12 months or 24 months later to let us know how it all turned out. I appreciate your dilligence to keep coming back to inform us with what I believe is an honest account . Not too many people do this, unfortunately. So, please accept my words of thanks to you, redhead.
Your friend’s problem could not be solved in
3-4 months. This is intellectually unrealistic,as I explained above in my last post. Giving up because of pain is understandable if she had already tried topical anethetics, less time per session or even tried different electrologist’s.
I’m having difficulty understanding why you blame electrolysis for not being permanent since you or your friend can’t endure the sensation (PAIN!) r time commitment? Go to a pharmacist and discuss if it is possible for her/him to make you a special cream to anesthetize just the area the electrologist will be working on, that is if you tried elamax or emla without success. Maybe your doctor can inject a small area at a time with Xylocaine 1%. What about acupuncture? I’m going a little crazy here with suggestions, none which may prove to be a real option, but my point is keep searching.
We get nowhere with this laser /electrolysis ‘bashing’ term. I know there are many electrologist’s that would love to see clients coming to them for large areas that have been halfway treated successfully with laser, with their job only being to slam dunk those remaining stubborn stragglers with electrolysis.
Large areas, like the chest is a real up hill battle. I am currently working on a man who can not tolerate manual thermolysis or blend on his chest. He can’t tolerate waxing (that’s what brought him to me seeking electrolysis!!!). I am currently doing multiple needle galvanic on him, and we have struck a cord — he tolerates this modality very well. It’s not my favorite kind of electrolysis to do because it is labor intensive, but I do it because this is what my client needs. I just want to tell you especially, redhead, that I suggested he may want to try laser intially, even gave him the names of good laser centers, but he had done his homework via the internet, and decided for himself, he’d rather do electrolysis. His reason for not trying laser: it appears it may or may not be permanent, and he was afraid of losing a lot of money if it didn’t work. So here we are slowing climbing that tall ladder,hair by hair.
James and other electrologist’s speak the facts as they are known about laser hair removal. I see laser failures and I see laser successes. Recently, two ladies have come to me to remove sparse hair on their underarms that were treated by laser. Twelve - twenty hairs on each side were all that remained. The good news is,one lady had her last treatment 3 years ago and the other had her treatments 2 years ago. The skin looked beautiful!
Lastly, I’m a little discouraged that you describe anything negative an electrologist says about laser results as bashing. We all have plenty of work,if not too much, and please understand that we would like nothing more than to earn a buck just doing upper lips all day.
Large areas of man hair, like a chest, can be real B-tch’s on the back and neck.
I never said that ANYTHING an Electrologist says about Laser is “bashing”. I say that bashing occurs when negatives are constantly highlighted and positives dismissed or ignored, and speculation about long term effects or mention of rare side effects are used as a scare tactic under the guise of “information” . I’m suprised you don’t understand the way I’m describing Electrology’s failed permanence in terms of someone not being able to endure the very nature of Electrology. This includes pain, time, trauma to the skin, regrowth, and money. You are hung up on the theory of it being permanent on an unfeeling robot, and not real life people. Some of which don’t WANT a relationship with an Electrologist that goes on and on. Look, I appreciate what you and James have to say most of the time, but I think sometimes you guys repeat the facts as you want to hear them and not as they really are. A perfect example is the human vs. computer polls in last years college football season. The computers got it wrong because they were strictly looking at data fed into it. They could not see the defeat in the eyes of the Oklahoma players towards the end of the season, or take into account the mental trauma of a defensive cordinator taking another job before the season was over. The computer did not see momentum. The real fact is the person in the above post that I pasted is HAPPY with the LONG TERM results of Laser treatments, but for some reason all you Electrologists can say about that is it hasn’t been “proven” to be permanent, or that she might get full regrowth 4 or 5 years down the road, or that it’s rare. Hell, it hasn’t been proven that Laser Doesn’t cause cancer ( you can’t prove a negative of course) Let’s throw that out there every once in a while. And James can make little puns about Laser “burning” people and act all coy about how he’s just joking around. It all adds up. This thread does not exist in a vaccum. I’m going to choose my words very carefully here. I’ve noticed certain Electrologists are not just pro- Electrology (which is fine with me), but also anti-Laser, and it colors every post they make. It is my opinion that at that point they are not offering information, but rather an agenda. Not so cool.
[ March 28, 2004, 10:37 PM: Message edited by: redhead ]
In hopes of not turning this into a huge debate, I would like to say that I think I can understand why Electrologists might feel the need to take Laser down befor presenting Electrology as an option. I do agree that it has been “oversold” in many cases, and it is not a “miracle cure”. I guess in order to have people even consider Electrolosis’s good qualities you might need to “unbrainwash” some consumers that could think Laser is better than it really is. I just think you guys cross a line sometimes, and that might not be in the consumers best interest. I will try not to bash Electrolgy or Electrologists, and if I come off that way I am sorry.
I’m beyond the debate issues, redhead. You and I have already done that in past threads, so no need to be redundant in this thread.
Speaking for myself only, any comments I have made about laser come forth strictly from observations and consumer comments over the last 8 years, NOT a personal agenda to promote electrolysis just because I am an electrologist. Published research on laser is of deep importance to me, if it can be determined that laser companies are not paying for the study.
I care about facts and results. Wherever those facts and results lead to, I will follow. I don’t care if it’s laser or any new topical or even genetic manipulation. If it is proven safe and effective for the consumer,it should be used to help them.
Enjoy your day.
Here is a recent post on another Forum that, I think gives a good overview of the pros and cons of Laser… " I had my first treatment on my underarms 4 years ago. I had 6 full treatments done and I did them on a schedule of every 6 weeks. I have had 7 “touch up” treatments in addition to the first 6, but remember that is all I have had done in 4 years. My last treatment was July 2003. I probably have 5 to 8 hairs under each arm and they are so fine and light that I am o.k. with that. I have also had my bikini line done and it took about the same amount of treatments as my underarms. I have a few scattered hairs, but once again they are so few and fine that I am very pleased. I have had my full legs, feet and toes done and it only took 5 full treatments and about 3 touch ups. These areas are also virtually hairfree with a few scattered, fine hairs. My abdomen is totally hairfree and so are my breasts. These two areas have had no treatment in over 2 years. As you can see, I have had laser hair removal pretty much all over. Areas I didn’t mention were my lip and chin. I only had a few hairs in these areas to begin with, but they are also totally cleared. As I mentioned, my last treatment anywhere on my body was last July. I will probably have a touch up this summer before I go on vacation. Once a year is o.k. with me. It was explained in detail to me before I started my treatments 4 years ago, that laser hair removal is actually reduction. My laser specialist was very honest about telling me that there would not be 100% hair removal. I understood it after she explained hair growth cycles and also all of the things that can cause hair growth, ie: puberty, pregnancy, menopause, medications, thyroid problems, adrenal problems and much more. So my advise would be to be very skeptical of the places that are advertising 100% of the hair gone in 6 treatments. I mean afterall, how can they control your hormones and such. I’m just very glad I went to the clinic I did. I have been extremely pleased and never felt that I was being sold a bill of goods. I know this is long, but I hope it helps." This consumer report brings up a lot of points you guys make, but somehow it seems a lot more positive when put in the context of an actual person, and not just FDA terminology. I think the way yb opened this discussion by poining out that Laser can cause hairgrowth is about as productive as a Laser tech poining out on every thread you guys post that Electrology can cause pitting scarring and dimpling. It is the way things are said and who is saying them that can be problematic for me.
</font><blockquote><font size=“1” face=“Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif”>quote:</font><hr /><font size=“2” face=“Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif”> redhead :And James can make little puns about Laser “burning” people and act all coy about how he’s just joking around. It all adds up. This thread does not exist in a vaccum. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size=“2” face=“Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif”>Since the comment alluded to here was made in a password protected forum, I simply must make it easy for the average viewer here to see that I did not in fact make a joke about L.A.S.E.R. burning anyone. The only mention of burning was a poster saying that he had been “Burned” by numerous Scam Devices and I made a joke about what the poster said. See for yourself.
</font><blockquote><font size=“1” face=“Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif”>quote:</font><hr /><font size=“2” face=“Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif”>njbug:Thanks James, I think I’m finally at ease now. I’ve gotten burned (literally) by so many non-permenant hair removal schemes it’s really hard to accept that the one permenant way is going to be the least damaging.
It’s hard to shake the feeling that with the nice results I’m getting my skin is probably going to start bubbling, turning green, and falling off just to prove to me that I should just give up. Posts: 14 | Registered: Feb 2004
James W. Walker VII, CPE:Oh no, that would only happen if you had done L.A.S.E.R.
I know somepeople around her can’t take a joke. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size=“2” face=“Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif”>Now I thought it would be obvious that the joke was that something one did for hair removal would make the skin bubble and turn green before falling off like a cartoon. Like I said, I know some people around here can’t take a joke. Its just humor folks.
I’m sorry I don’t see the humour there, James. Can you explain to me how your “joke” is not merely a viscious wise crack about Laser. Based on everything you say about Laser, I don’t see that as a joke, but yet another sign that you can’t put Laser in it’s proper perspective. That quip does not exist in a vacum. It wouldn’t make any difference to me if you did not also insist on advising people as to the truth about Laser as if you are coming from a professional place. I wonder if you can have it both ways. The truth as you see it, James. I have an amazing sense of humor, and that is precisely why I don’t “get” your joke.
[ March 29, 2004, 05:24 PM: Message edited by: redhead ]
When you say that a person who drops out of electrolysis before permanent removal can take place, because they don’t finish the program, not because the treatment failed that it constitutes failure of electrolysis, your logic is as flawed as saying that a program of diet and exercise is flawed just because some people don’t follow it, and therefore don’t loose weight. Noncompliance to the proper program doesn’t disprove the veracity of the program. The point is if you don’t do the program, then you have not done the program, and your results don’t characterize the expectations of the program that one did not comply with.
On another subject, my admitted bias is that while Electrolysis can deliver a reliable result given certain compliance, L.A.S.E.R. has trouble predicting just what any given individual can expect under any condition.
I am sure, however, that there is no need to restate myself any further than that here.
I hear your point, and agree with some of it. Perhaps I should say that most people can’t follow a program that will lead to results with Electrolysis due to a myriad of reasons, many of which have to do with simply being a human being. Some can , some can’t. What you just stated is a far cry from many of your innuendos about Laser in a lot of your posts. And the other side is that if Laser works well for someone it is a much better option on large areas then Electrology. If that’s rolling the dice, you should at least admit there is a payoff if you win. What does any of this have to do with making a joke that you know will offend simply for your amusement. You can clearly see in your post that you KNEW it would be offensive, because in the very next sentence you launch an attack on those that might not appreciate it by insulting them by saying that they can’t take a joke. To answer Dee’s earlier question about what I percieve as Laser bashing, well that’s a good example. I wonder if you still think I’m just imagining things?
Thank you for addmitting that laser treatments are “a roll of dice”. By the way, a roll of dice also implies payoff for the winners.
Now, can you explain the fact that no investment companies ever invest in casino gambling, but they rather opt for the stock market? It is simply because “rolling the dice” is irrational when trying to make a profit. They want to have more control over the situation, as well as a fair chance of winning.
Let’s see now what is the payoff if one does get lucky and he benefits from laser. Up to 60% reduction (that’s 0% to 60%) over some months and even years. No one can tell for sure how long. And what do you do with the rest of the hair in this ideal case? Hmm…
Now, what do you do if you’re in the majority of people who experience more regrowth? And what if you don’t benefit at all or benefit very little? Will you get your time and your money back?
Let’s go back to your ideal case. Let’s say that whatever laser places want you to believe has actually happened. Now you’re 60% “smooth” for life. It can be all that you wanted, if you’re male and you just wanted to reduce your chest hair. But most people seeking hair removal want it ALL off for life. So where do they go now? Do they go for electrolysis to finish up the job? But it is very likely that if they would have invested all that time and money in electrolysis to begin with, they would have been finished by now. For life. For sure. And no need to gamble and no need to get lucky.
To answer your claim that it is hard to finish electrolysis treatment:
It is unfortunate that you’ve had such an experience. You would have done better, if you would take the advice to find a better electrologist. Why didn’t you ask James how many of his ex-clients with large area work are out there happy and smooth for life.
I know that you’ve invested a lot in laser. I hope you get “lucky” and benefit from it as much as possible, since hair reduction is all that you might want. I want to note, however, that we’re talking to the average (most) consumers wanting permanent hair removal in the most efficient way.
I’m gonna say this clearly for you. I don’t think that if you invested the TIME spent in Laser in Electrology that you’d have your chest done, you’d have your nipples done. I realize now that everything you say is just your opinion, and that you want a bunch of the negative Facts about Electrology to be overlooked, argued with, or mabey even removed from the “HAIRFACTS.COM” page, and likewise would want to add abunch of negative stuff about LASER and remove some positive FACTS because you aren’t capable of SEEING them to be true. None of this would make any difference to me if you and James didn’t post your OPINION as FACT on nearly every single post up and down this entire FORUM as if we should simply make all other opinions and facts comply with what you THINK. You contradict youself all the time. One of many examples is in one post you tout how your Doctor pal, or something you read, shows that the skin is much like the brain in that it is unknown a lot of time why it works in mysterious ways. You use this info to support your pet peeve about LASER causing unpredicable effects including hair GROWTH. Yet Electrology is perfect and predictable despite working on that very same skin. It never DOESN"T work when done “correctly”, and pitting, scarring, and dimpling only happen by incompetence. SAYS YOU. You do this with almost every aspect of logic in your praise of Electrology and bashing of Laser. I’m not going to argue every point with you because your missing the BIG point. My opinion is that your temperment and attitude automatically disqualifies you from being an “authoritative” voice on this board. Until a directive comes down that you and James hold SWAY over this entire FORUM, and can ammend and warp facts to suit your opinions, then expect a lot of argument.