Question for James - Electrolysis v. Laser

Redhead:

You do not directly answer to points presented by my posts. Instead, you take your arguments to a personal level, and you make up personal accusatons against me, James and others. You do not take the effort to read the points presented and give them some objective thought, as you seem to have a certain goal. Your goal seems to be to shout down (as you yourself have mentioned it before) opinions that contradict with what you want to believe. Hence, no direct response to important points made, and plenty unbased accusations instead. I am giving up (2nd time) trying to show you logic in anything. Someone reading this thread should be able to see the facts and points made. And that’s my only consern.

We have the same concern, but two different viewpoints. There are many people on this Forum with the same concerns and different interpetations and experiences. Until you respect that, these arguments will continue. I’m not sure what I’m “making up” about you that is not based on your own words in your own posts, but if it is helpful to you for me to directly answer more of your questions to me then let me say that I have had a lot of Electrology done in addition to Laser. They are both “rolls of the dice”. And I love the way you throw out 60% reduction as being the best Laser result possible as if it were a fact. You know I’ve said over and over again that I am not an ideal candidate for Laser and won’t be getting any more Laser treatments. But for good Laser candidates, I think it’s a great option. Keep ignoring the fact that if you need a cheap twenty minute touch up once every couple years with Laser to maintain results it might be a better option then Electrolgy for a LOT of people. Show us any scientific study by Electrologists that proves it is harder to do Electrology on a hair previously treated with Laser, since you and James clearly have a problem with people using Electrology to “clean” up areas that Laser missed, which is thought by MANY Electrologists to be the best way to attack a hair problem. Let me say this again so that it might be heard. MANY, MANY Electrologists with much, much more experience than yb subscribe to the strategy (on ideal candidates) that Laser followed by electrology is the best (cheapest and quickest and in some cases the safest) way to attack any hair problem on large areas! They BELIEVE they have the consumers BEST interest in mind with this strategy. These are your peers, yb. Others in your profession stongly disagree with you. Since I’m not a proffesional Electrologist or Laser tech, I am not qualified to answer or argue all of your points. Sorry. What I can do is read these and other Forums, have my own experiences, and see that you are not right all the time. If you want to argue with others in you profession that disagree with you, I think you should start a thread on that “other” Forum so that I can see what a real debate about your theories looks like. If you don’t know about this “other” Forum, then let me know and I can hook you up. It might be interesting for you to test out some of your arguments on a few people that like to argue about this very subject and are professional Electrologists, and although I’m not saying they are right about everything, they might have some facts or evidence or stories that you are not aware of. I would think you might be interested in that, so you could prove them wrong or show them the error of their ways. You say your concerned about consumers making the right choice, then you should be aware that there is rampant dgreement with you and possibly missinformation being doled out on that other website. If you can sway them or win a debate over there, I promise never to question any of your posts ever again.

[ March 30, 2004, 12:35 PM: Message edited by: redhead ]

Why don’t all you people take your bickering someplace else!!

I, myself & I am sure many, many countless others really don’t care about what is better according to each one of your owns oppinions.

(now that made about as much sense as most of your all’s rambling’s)

One thing I do know is this site is very helpful for people that have questions…ABOUT LASER treatments.

Redhead,

Is the other website forum www.consumerbeware.com
or are you talking about another site???

So redhead, am I to understand you have given up on laser because you have not been an ideal candidate, but would not hesitate to recommend laser for large areas to be treated, to others?

And for yb:

Out of curiosty, have you worked on any laser failure clients or do you see clients that are 60% or more completed that need some electrolysis help to clear an area completely?
What areas of the body seem to need the most help after laser? hormone dependant areas or stable areas?

I was impressed with two different ladies’ underarms that had laser 2 and 3 years ago, respectively,and no treatments since (I’m assuming they are honest about this). Just a few hairs remained, less than 24 hairs remained on both sides and the skin looked great. However, when it comes to the facial area, I have yet to see a laser success. One client felt she had grown more hair after laser, that may be so, however, it may be that hormonal stimulation of inactive follicles could have been the culprit, too.

Now,I’m not seeing 50 ex-laser people a week,so we’re not talking critical mass here, thus, what I’m saying here is hardly scientific. Yb, please share your experiences in regard to the above,if you have any. Any one else is most welcomed to chime in,too.

Dee

Yes Dee, I’m talking about that Forum, and as a matter of fact there is a post being discussed this very minute there in regards to a Lady who seems very happy with her long term results with Laser on her face, which was basically a full beard. Perhaps you could ask her some questions. I actaully wouldn’t say I recommend Laser on large areas as a rule, because of very good points that are listed in the hairfacts.com section, that are brought up by yb, james and yourself, and some people really might prefer Electrology for very good reasons that you also bring up. It’s an important decision. Unfortunately, I don’t think that Laser is being presented as an option by james and yb in anywhere near a fair way. They are overly cynical, and manipulative in a way that begs for some kind of balance, since they seem to address everyones post that is new here. I don’t see why you don’t just say that you feel I’m right about this. I know you can see my point, and I would appreciate it if you would break ranks a little bit here. You must see that their comments about Laser, though insiteful and valuble in many ways, are made in a way that warps what might be true about Laser’s problems into a false picture that undermines all the good points about Laser on the Hairfacts.com page. In other words, yb loves to refer people to that page to see for themselves, but first he wants to spin some of the facts, and add and subtract as he sees fit. Otherwise, he would simply refer them to that page and move on. If people were just refered to that page, much of this nonsense could be avoided. I know you understand my basic problems with some of their posts, and that a big part of you knows this really isn’t about Electrology v. Laser. And by the way, anyone that doesn’t have really dark skin should try the Aurora as an option!

Dee:

I can’t really tell if a person is 60% completed. One has to see the before and after skin. What I’m not sure about, is the long term effects of laser on the treated hair. Since the hair was treated, it’s growth cycle will be disturbed because of all the healing time involved. So for an ex-laser client, how can one really tell that the hair treated by laser and seemingly destroyed, will not sprout back in some later time. I once had a conversation with Fino about this, and he opined that it could take a number of years for it to grow back. He used to do laser before until he got disappointed, so I respect his opinion on this.

Some of my ex-laser clients had normal hair, and I wouldn’t be able to tell if they’ve ever had laser if they wouldn’t tell me themselves. On others, I did see some of the thick white hair usually reported as laser’s side effect. But I’m not really sure that that’s what it was, because people can have grey hair naturally.

I happen to have a case of two clients who were evaluating hair removal methods at the same time. They both were Trans Girls just getting started on permanent hair removal. They both had more than 350 black hairs per square inch on early 40’s skin with no noticeable grey or white hairs.

After independent research, one of these friends chose to do electrolysis, the other L.A.S.E.R. During the early going, the one who was working with me talked to me about how her friend was making fun of her “stupidity” because she was doing “obsolete electrolysis.”

In Six months both their faces looked about the same, but as the year ended, my client’s skin softened brightened and we settled in to the maintenance phase, while the other gal hit a point where there was a diminishing return on her treatments. She soon discontinued all treatments and waited another year before contacting me to see if I would still be willing to take her on as a client. By this time, her friend had long ago threw away her razors and was seeing me on a very limited basis for “Nit Pick Sessions”.

When I went to work on her, what I found was that the year of non treatment, for her created a situation where her hair had either turned white, or gone from dark black to light brown with a stripe of white down the middle. Most of the hair had gone from straight to “J” shapes with a sharp angle of exit from the skin that made ingrown hairs more of a problem.

The good news for her, when she shaved, the skin looked clear from a distance, because there was little color in the hair on her face. The bad news, since the hair was still more than 350 per square inch, texture would show through makeup, and the skin was not smooth to the touch.

We have only recently begun treatments, but I have already removed 10,000 hairs from just the area from her neck and mask area.

As I have said before, I imagine that my experience with post-L.A.S.E.R.-clients would have to be skewed by definition (if they got what they wanted from it, most would never contact me at all) but in this one case, I know what the before and the after looks like, and I am very unimpressed.

Just to be fair, however, I do have a client who had L.A.S.E.R. treatments, and did at least get a reduction of hairs. The hairs that remain are also more white than black, but both the blacks and the whites are distorted, and have an unnaturally sharp angle of exit from the skin.

I can’t speak for most people, but I believe that I could have done as good and probably better than the results they got from the light based treatment, had I been given the same amount of money, and treated them over the same amount of time. Yes, they would have needed more hours initially, but over the same number of months, they would have had what I, and they would find to be a better result.

I have got to say first off, that I respect Andrea greatly for not censoring the competitor’s website that I mentioned on my above post,like they censored hers her couple months ago. Kitty, at consumerbeware, censored the www.hairfacts site when I naively mentioned hairfacts in a post I made about x-ray hair removal. I only wanted to share info with consumers and referred them to this site to read about x-ray hair removal. After I posted the hairfacts website, hairfacts.com was changed to www.liesbyliars.com -this happened twice. The attack dogs(moderators) appeared shortly thereafter, giving their childish reasons why they intensly dislike Andrea.

Andrea, thank you for your class, maturity and fairmindedness. You run things very well here. We all appreicate you.

Redhead, I really want to understand all you are saying about laser and I truly see some of your points. I do have my own observations. I am not in a consortium with James, yb or any other electrologist that posts here. I have never talked to them personally or via e-mail about laser. I’m simply seeking information because laser is still relatively new,and I want to learn about all possible options for my clients. There are no ranks to break here, as I do not desire to ‘take sides’ with anyone. James is an experienced electrologist who has seen and done a lot more than me, so I perk up when he speaks. Neophyte electrologists like myself can learn much by listening to James, but I still think for myself.

Yb’s concerns and questions kind of paralels my questions and concerns about laser, however, I have personally concluded at this point in time that it is impossible to answer long term safety and effectivenes issue’s until much more time has passed. So my strategy is to ask seasoned laser clients,like yourself, about your experience and results, keep abreast of published research not paid for by laser companies, and present laser facts as I know them to clients that ask me about their options. That’s it.

It does bother me when facts are said to be facts when there is only loose, iffy evidence to back up a statement. This is not a jab, but how does Fino know that it could take a number of years for lasered hair to grow back?? Laser hair removal has been offered to the public for 8 years. What has he seen that we all should know about? He could be absolutely correct, but I personally need more information.

And redhead, I swear I understood you to say with high emotion several times, that for large areas like the chest, electrolysis is not an option. Laser should be the modality because it works permanently - period. I’d have to do a search to get your exact words. Now, on the above post, you say you are not recommending laser on large areas? This all gets pretty cluttered and cloudy.

I do not desire to hash back and forth about laser vs. electrolysis, this being the topic of this thread. However, I would like to keep things going on an intellectual level of exchanging honest information in a courteous manner.

One thing I was thinking about earlier tonight is, asking clients that come to me to remove a few straggler hairs from their lasered underarms, that have been treatment-free for 3 years, to post their stories here on hairtell. Same goes for electrolysis successes. We don’t seem to hear enough about the successes of both modalities.

Dee

I said I don’t recommend Laser as a RULE on large areas. I pretty much agree with the pros and cons listed on the HAIRFACTS.COM page about the two methods, and that people should use those as guidelines. You praise ANDREA, and rightly so. I’m sure when she chose the wording for that particular section she was very careful, as it clearly is the nuts and bolts of this factual website. The laser section has plenty of cons, but NOT a few that yb and James and Fino mention as if there opinions or personal anticdotes are fact. It says nothing about Laser causing sudden growth of hair, that all treated hair suddenly regrows after a couple years, that 60% reduction is the best you can expect, that it makes hair harder to treat afterwards with Electrolysis. I assume that they are not there because a few experiences or a single study or any of that make it a strong enough con that it should be used as a deterent. It also is very clear about Electrolysis negative points, and I personally have found some of them to be true. If they feel that Andrea was mistaken about all this stuff, then they ought to Lobby her into changeing the FACTS on that page to better suit what they believe.On that “other” Website they claim that Electrology has a number of dirty little secrets, that I believe has to do with what yb has stated is the most unpredicable human organ, the skin. That even with competent Electrology there have been reported cases of pitting scarring and dimpling, especially on the FACE, but this is not listed as a FACT on this website, and therefore I for one don’t go and post on every thread in order to get people to think twice about Electrology, even though the occurence of this unpredictable reaction is probably at least as frequent as Laser triggering sudden hairgrowth, which is to say very rarely. The woman doing that study has been doing Laser a long time, and none of her patients have ever had “triggered” growth, and on top of that she treats the patients that have had this unfortunate side effect with Laser. I appreciate yb’s concern about this, no matter how rare it is, and wonder if Andrea has considered adding this to the HAIRFACTS.COM page. Until she does, I think it might be a bit inflametory to bring this point up as a priority message to anyone wondering about Laser.
If I ever said that Electrolysis is not an option on an area like a super hairy chest, then that would be wrong, since it is a fact that people have successfully done it. And some people might not want to risk Lasers unknowns. I would, however, tell anyone thinking of doing it, that if they are a good candidate for Laser they should try it first. It is worth rolling the dice on Laser if you can avoid that much Electrology. This simple statement is pretty much in line with the FACTS on HAIRFACTS.COM. as I understand them. I would also say that the odds on that dice roll are much, much better than yb and James would describe. Peace be with you.

[ April 01, 2004, 01:16 AM: Message edited by: redhead ]

You may read Andrea’s Response here:
L.A.S.E.R. Side Effects, and Long Term Issues

I don’t get into what the odds are on that roll of the dice, but from the looks of the average L.A.S.E.R. advert, “soft news” spot, and the “understanding” of the average person contemplating treatment, most don’t understand that they will be paying for anything less than a magic wand that will end all their hair problems permanently and totally, and that all the medical testing is way in the past and the jury is out with a final result that this is the best case treatment with no possible future problems.

If we sound shrill in the endeavor to say, “That is not quite the situation” it is because we are the ones who see the worst case situations coming to our offices crying about how they can’t understand why no one told them there were any risks, and no one is helping them with any negative side effects. When something bad does happen, the shops lawyer up, close up, or in any case shut the client out to deal with the consequenses alone.

We just want everyone to be informed consumers about what ever treatment they decide to utilize, not just sold on something that seems glamourous and new.

[ April 11, 2004, 04:25 PM: Message edited by: James W. Walker VII, CPE ]