I wonder if you are misinterpreting the laws to avoid having to make changes in your product. Harsh statement, I know. I have read almost every single states regulation for the cleaning, disinfection and sterilization for electrology instruments. These regulations are for the individual electrologist to safely decontaminate the reusable instruments in their office. Quite a few states legislate that needles are to be pre-sterilized and disposable (not all, for sure) and they do not state that those pre-sterilized needles must be exposed to dry heat or autoclave. The FDA provides information on what methods of sterilization for disposable items is appropriate. Read here to learn more: http://www.fda.gov/MedicalDevices/DeviceRegulationandGuidance/GuidanceDocuments/ucm072783.htm
Mike, if you don’t want to pre-sterilize your needles that’s your choice. But don’t make everyone else wrong to justify your point of view. The facts are that FDA rules trump all other so-called standards (which were, by the way, written with the best of intentions). As I mentioned to you, California is now correcting the language of our law.
FDA standards include ethylene oxide and gamma radiation. These are the industry standards and how our needles (Ballet and Sterex) are supplied to us. When you go to your doctor, he uses a disposable syringe and needle that was sterilized in this manner. Hospital room disposables, also the same. Re-used instruments are autoclaved, as you know.
Anyone can read FDA standards themselves, here they are:
I suppose you can find some loophole or point of law, but that’s not the issue. The issue actually is that our industry wants pre-sterile needles. I like your needles, as I have repeatedly said, but the packaging is creepy. I don’t like it and my patients don’t either. Again, it’s your choice; this is a free country after all.
I have a “Rush Limbaugh Conservative” friend that starts with his point of view (usually the opposite of mine). He then searches out some statement to prove his opinion. When all else fails, he will find some obscure passage from the Bible. You can always find something to defend your position, but you eventually start to look silly.
I just learned that we are not supposed to wear linen with wool…(obscure passage)
Back to the needles, I really do like them and if it were not for packaging and price, they would be my number one choice. Thinking about that packaging and price thing…if sterex needles cost around .50 each, then the packaging “could” be as much as 50% of that cost, which means the packaging is only .25 per needle… I would assume (realizing the badness of assuming things) that the manufacturers net profit is MORE than 50% of the retail cost…therefore, the cost of packaging and sterilization is LESS than a quarter each. I would certainly pay 25 cents more for an appropriately packaged and pre-sterilized Laurier needle. I would save them for longer appointments, but I would be buying them and using them.
I am not one to quote the bible, but I am referring to state law ( there are other states than CA I read somewhere ) which is exactly what the judge presiding over a malpractice case would be referring to, not the rules of an association. Vague interpretations of rules and law do not work in court and a malpractice suit cannot only ruin the practice of an electrologist but their entire future. To produce a product that will not satisfy the letter of the law in a customer’s state does them a great disservice.
I have never said I would not produce an individually packed sterilized Probe. Nor have I said that gamma,gas,or light sterilization is inferior (not that it matters, but in my personal opinion it is not)
If I understand correctly the association feels it is inappropriate for an electrologist to sterilize a needle. Even though they are required, under strict standards, to sterilize their forceps ? A thing is either sterile or it is not, there is no in between. Are forceps “acceptably less sterile” ? A great many operators I have met are RN’s and are very well trained in sterilization matters.
I get the impression you are telling me if I change the packaging I might just be able to sell a few of these. The reality of it is we employ seven people full time and have for 40 years. We produce a premium product for a premium clientele. The fact is, when given a choice, a patient will most often choose our product, if not given the choice, the operator will make an extra dollar and a half for a treatment. Irritation, scabs, “crusts” and swelling are at most a minor issue for my customers.
I don’t think your packaging looks creepy, Mike Roy. In fact, it is very high class, high quality looking and has that special “I care about my product” look. Each probe is meticulously snuggled away in its own little groove and the plastic case offers protection for the your special “little soldiers” (probes), more so than an paper and thin plastic peel back packages that others offer. I want to thank you for continuing to offer the fabulous probes that your dear father worked so hard to make the best.
The big thing that needs to be discovered revolves around the sterilization issue, which is a huge deal, as you have heard, for electrologists here. So, you are working on this or are you just going to let it ride as is?
Thanks you Mike for your patience and God bless you! (More Bible stuff! hmm!)
Yes. I’ve read that we have 50 states… A judge is more likely to go with FDA regulations over a state’s regulation. Perhaps you should consult with an insurance agent who covers electrologists to discover what kind of claims have been made.
Speaking of vague…you have implied that “something” is on the horizon, but you have never said you WOULD produce individually packaged pre-sterilized needles. I am confused as to your opinion about these other methods of sterilization. They are or are not inferior?
This is not about FEELINGS. It is about risks and facts. The risks involved when handling needles for sterilization far exceed the risks involved in handling forceps/tweezers for sterilization. Many states have recognized this and the result has been that they require pre-sterilized disposables.
Yep. If you change the packaging and provide a pre-sterilized product you will be able to sell more of these.
I would like to focus on the main character of this controversial story, insulated bulbous probe. In other words the jewel Laurier.
If my memory serves me correctly, the purpose of this thread was to establish the suitability of using an insulated probe.
There has been consensus on some issues and some not.
Less pain.
less intensity
Less superficial reaction. Except for Michael because he has not observed significant differences.
Same degree of effectiveness.
We all agree?
To my esteemed colleagues of research:
What needle would you use on the upper lip of an 8 year old girl? Imagine Tom Cruise wanting to get the unibrow of his little Suri zapped.
I have it very clear, short size needle 002 Laurier.
Uppa! Another “study” in the making for me, Miss Jossie! I will have try the Laurier probe on a couple of my “Suri’s”. In the past, I have always used a size 2 insulated Ballet probes on my little girls. Result > they healed fine. As for sensation, I will just have to see how that part turns out.
If her parents permit the use of a manually sterilized needle…
Which is much easier for You than for most other electrologists because You have employed a physician who can explain.
We should take that issue seriously: i have already observed client situations where i cannot use the probes although i would urgently need them (histamine oversensitivity causing excess swelling and delayed healing) because they refuse to be treaded with a needle that is not pre packaged.
It simply does not count that a needle which has been packaged and heat sterilized by me is as least as safe as an industrially packaged needle sterilized by gamma rays.
If Mike Roy constantly refuses to improve the packaging to our needs - is there any 3rd party doing the job and then redistribute the probes (Yes i am talking about larger quantities than those one of us electrologists can utilize…)?
I do not know if I understand, Beate. You mean someone a dealer, for example, change the format?
Maybe a temporary solution for you: in my town we have the possibility to use the services provided by the laboratory of the public university. Just a matter of paying a small fee for expenses arising from such use. That’s how we did the photo electron microscopy. In the university laboratory, sterilizing and those responsible could be individually packaged needles. If that reassures your clients worth trying.
The saddest thing about this is that people tend to rely more on the health authorities (which sometimes act in a completely irresponsible as the person responsible for finding the origin of the strain that has killed these poor victims) than in a professional concerned about the safety of her clients, while Andalusia has lost hundreds of millions of euros and many jobs because someone blamed the cucumber Malaga. God, that life is unfair sometimes!
First of all i need a solution to buy. The contact with the dealer is more than frustrating.
Anyway: actually i am pretty pragmatic. But i see the general demands of the market. If Mike wants to sell more probes than ever he needs to change the packaging. But I also recognize that such a change is not an easily done investion, especially if the sales of the product are down.
in my town we have the possibility to use the services provided by the laboratory of the public university.
Will probably a very big deal in Germany where even university hospitals are fully commercialized. But maybe i’ll find a solution; its a minor problem.
The saddest thing about this is that people tend to rely more on the health authorities (which sometimes act in a completely irresponsible as the person responsible for finding the origin of the strain that has killed these poor victims) than in a professional concerned about the safety of her clients,
[quote] while Andalusia has lost hundreds of millions of euros and many jobs because someone blamed the cucumber Malaga. God, that life is unfair sometimes!
Not only Andalusia…
BTW: that’s a wholly different story, and yes, the German Health Authorities did not act correctly in this case (neither to malaga nor even to the place where the deadly food actually came from - it was not their fault either). On the other hand EHEC viruses were actually found on cucumbers from malaga, just in a less aggressive variant.
I have not had any problems with Prestige.com.
Since I have Susan´s email address, I make requests directly to her, and she has been always attentive and efficient with my purchases.
This is the e-mail of Susan:
I’m not familiar with marketing issues and the logistics surrounding the launch of a product on the market. I just know that if it is not for Michael and Hairtell, I never would have known these needles were in the market. It is frankly difficult to buy something you do not know it exists.
Beate, You can not imagine the limited information (about Electrology) we have here in Spain. I know some of my Spanish colleagues are just Hairtell readers, they do not write, but read. If my limited knowledge means something to them, trust me. Try using this needle always in the face of your clients, especially if the hairs are thick and they are in the chin area, neck or upper lip.
As for poor cucumber of Málaga, this must be the fresh product more studied in history. One of two, or cucumber is harmless (in addition to having an excellent quality) or the inhabitants of Malaga have a unique immune system because as I know no one died here.
The errors of those who administer our taxes have serious consequences and the price of these errors has a high cost to the innocent people. Some hotheads wanted to boycott German products in protest (which I call revenge). Fortunately, the Andalusians are a remarkable people and almost everything is forgotten. My condolences to the families of the victims.
I am not sure what all the hubub is here about the probes coming pre-packaged or not. If you want something sterilized in a package, you can get the sterilizer plastic tube sheet rolls, and heat sealer, and take care of that yourself. While you are at it you can seal and sterilize your forceps/tweezers in the same way, and some people will believe that you use and discard your tweezers after a single use as well.
Let me say again that I have tried the Laurier probes, and I like them, and I use them, and I have no problem with the packaging. We all own sterilizer equipment, don’t we?
As for the suppliers, I always recommend Texas Electrolysis Supply, because I have never had a problem with getting the wrong thing delivered, while, I have had LOTS of problems with that from Prestige, and granted, there may not be more than 3 people left on the staff from the time when I had those problems now, the management NEVER made good, and always wanted to say that it had to be my fault that I got the wrong stuff, even when one time I ordered the stuff in person at a convention, and said I did not want to buy anything I could not cash and carry because of the problems I had in the past, and they STILL sent the wrong stuff when I got home.
Which is what i am doing anyway because i need to be able to transport sterilized material. Of course i do apply this procedure to the laurier probes.
LOTS of problems with that from Prestige, and granted, there may not be more than 3 people left on the
The simply do not process my order although they have everything they need including credit card number. Latest reason not to process it was that my telephone number was missing - it is part of my email footer.
I can only imagine that my order is to small for their expectations (but considering the difficulties i encounter, that was a wise decision). My business is still pretty small, i have invested a lot of money into my first small office, my loupes and the Platinum and i cannot afford ordering probes for thousands of $.
The texas people did not react at all upon my inquiry.
Ok, the Laurier probes are really good, but it is possible to do good work without them.
I think you perhaps paved the way for the rest of us, James? My dealings with Prestige are pleasant and uneventful. Way back when, I had some minor mixups, but they made good immediately and with an apology. I like Prestige’s website layout better than TES, but that is a minor difference. I’m just glad that both companies exist in this difficult business environment.
I had the wrong thing delivered to me by Prestige twice and both times they were very good about it and quickly shipped the right things without any hassle.
What I did not like was their false promises on their website.When i tried to get a price match with TES for the laurier probes, they said no straight outand the guarantee meant nothing.
LOWEST PRICES - Prestige’s guarantee to meet or beat anybody else’s price on any product. It’s true. Just show us a recent competitor’s ad or a receipt showing how much you’ve been paying for your supplies and we’ll match it or do even better. We’ll even accept competitor’s coupons on like products! And this isn’t a once-in-a-lifetime special. It’s the way we do business every day. Prestige. The one place to go. For so many good reasons.
Have never had a problem with Prestige…have ordered very small and very large orders. Texas is very good, as well. I prefer the Prestige website over the Texas website.
Completely agree. However, it is reassuring to have a needle with which you feel safer. The older I am, I am more careful with skin of clients. When you start your career, your first priority is to get the best results possible, this is what worries the client and their desires are contagious. If you already have some experience you find that you could have done better if you had the opportunity to use better tools.
Consumer POV (point of view, Jos) - the ‘creepy’ packaging being referred to is the plastic casing with multiple needles in them, right?
If so, I have NO problem with it. I didn’t think twice about it every time I’ve been treated with Laurier needles.
Anyone who has ever bought a needle kit or been into haberdashery will be familiar with plastic cases containing lots of needles. It’s cosmetic. Sterilisation is another matter. I trust my electrologist to treat me. I trust my electrologist to look after me - to look after my skin and my health as far as electrolysis is concerned. I trust my electrologist to give me results. To achieve that, I trust my electrologist to give me the safest treatment with the highest standards of hygiene, which includes sterilising needles if they are not pre-sterilised and if they’re not disposable/will be used for more than one treatment. My electrologist delivers on every front. It’s a non-issue as a client.
Have any of you asked your clients (the ones treated by Laurier needles) what they thought?
I want to emphasise that these were two different clearances. Irrespective of the needle used, the second clearance always leads to better post-treatment results and post-treatment appearances (scabbing, inflammation, etc.) than the first. Plus, fewer hairs are removed and thus there are fewer opportunities for scabbing to occur. As Bono has said, the second and subsequent clearances help to heal the skin from the previous treatment.
Consumer POV - the ‘creepy’ packaging being referred to is the plastic casing with multiple needles in them, right?
If so, I have NO problem with it. I didn’t think twice about it every time I’ve been treated with Laurier needles. Anyone who has ever bought a needle kit or been into haberdashery will be familiar with plastic cases containing lots of needles. It’s cosmetic. Sterilisation is another matter. I’ve watched my electrologist take the needle out with ease without once ever physically touching it or shifting the other needles out of place.
I trust my electrologist to treat me. I also trust my electrologist to give me the safest treatment with the highest standards of hygiene, which includes sterilising needles if they are not pre-sterilised and if they’re not disposable/will be used for more than one treatment.
My main positive for these needles isn’t the resulting appearance of the skin, but the way they don’t concentrate energy like the gold probes. That’s the only negative I have about the gold probes. I still like being treated with gold probes, especially for body work, because the surface reaction is negligible in relation to the benefits and they’re quick, quick, quick! The pain of the zaps is just a discomfort, as it’s the build up of heat that my uber sensitive skin can’t tolerate. I could feel on a second by second basis the transfer of heat, uff! My skin and entire limb felt like it was on fire and burning, especially on picoflash, which made subsequent zaps feel even worse.
