Need some advice, PIC incl.

Ok so i want permanent removal, and obviously electrolysis is the way to go it seems.

I want to get my back/shoulders done. Heres a pic of my back/shoulders i made sure to try to include both. I hope the quality is good enough also.

http://img149.imageshack.us/img149/1186/back1oq9.jpg

Every thing i read is pretty much people getting small areas done, like lip/chin/pits, etc. Now obviously my back is a much larger area. My question is in GENERAL (i understand some people are better than others, and may do it faster) but in general how long would that area in the picture take?

Like would i be looking at 10 hours to do all that area every week?

Also i read someone who posted about getting her upper lip done and she went for 14months i believe and was going once a week. That seems excessive too me. Would i be expected to be going ever week for my area?

Also 5 Hour Package $335 (CAN), 5 Hour Package $225.00 (CAN) from 2 different places. Do those sound like standard prices?

kitranti
In my opinion electrolysis is the way.

Personally, I have seen people with much more hair than you have, but it really does vary a whole lot on how people respond to treatment. In addition it also depends on the modality of electrolysis used. How sensitive an individual is to pain as well, especially when it comes to the Blend modality. Thermolysis or Flash would be the quickest modalities to use in clearing the area, but others believe that Blend has a better kill rate. But that is also disputed as well.

From the picture we cannot see how deep the hair bulbs are in the skin or how much mosture your skin contains. Even with a picture there are just too many variables to be able to answer a question as to how long it will take. But yes large areas of skin can be treated with electrolysis.
In Electrology School I met one guy who had over 300 hours just on his back, but that was having students practice on him, and to be honest, he was extremely hairy.
A lot depends on the skill and knowledge of the electrologist, as well as how well your body can handle the treatments. Most electrology places that I know about, allow free consultations. This would be a good time to talk to your electrologist about what they believe it will take.

Martha Montgomery
Puget Sound Electrology

Everyone is so different - I know that everyone has heard that before, but it is sooo true.

Here’s what you can count on: After getting one treatment, for 15, 30 or 60 minutes - then figure what percentage of area was cleared. For example, if 60 minutes cleared 1/4 of all the hair, then it will take you 4 hours to clear it all. To expedite the completion, clear it as frequently as you can - you should not need weekly, unless you are budgeting time and have chosen to do 1 hour per week. If you clear the area [color:“red”] [/color] AT LEAST [color:“white”] [/color] once a month, it might still take you a year or longer to finish.

…gotta go, client is here… more later?

thanksf or the picture. it makes things much easier here. my personal opinion is that you don’t have a lot of hair, but some of it is very coarse and dark and your skin is very white. if i were you, i would treat just those areas (avoiding the finer hairs off to the sides etc) with high settings on an alexandrite (like GentleLASE) hair removal laser first, and then finish the stragglers and the finer hairs off to the sides and bottom with electrolysis. i think that would save you some time and money because a bunch of this hair and your skin type is actually very good for laser. you can read NoHair’s posts who has had this area done with great results over 6 yrs ago. I did this for my underarms and bikini as I had a similar situation there. Just remember that laser is not good on finer hair, especially when it comes to upper arms. but treating just those dark coarse hairs first would save you lots of time and money in my opinion.

What you can do all depends on the skill and speed of the electrologist you see, and the regularity you can make appointments.

I can’t tell you what you have available in your area, but I would estimate that I could clear that area to full first clearance in 3 to 6 hours, and then you would start maintenance phase of either keeping it clear by coming in at least every 3 weeks, or getting another full clearance after letting it grow back in but making sure that your second clearance was done sometime between 6 and 12 weeks from the completion of the first clearance.

People get so caught up in number of hours that they forget that part of that calculation is how many hairs per hour. In electrolysis an hour is not an hour, is not equal to an hour everywhere in the country. That alone is why so many people have electrologists they see who are far away from them, for many even the cost of travel is made up in the faster clearance, and even the dollars they would spend if they went someplace that worked slower. If all you have in your town is multi-probe galvanic, and you travel to see an excellent thermolysis practitoner, you would more than save money on the total job even with travel expenses figured in.

I have had laser
I have administered laser

I have had electrolysis
I have administered electrolysis

I have had waxing
I have administered waxing

In my opinion, looking at the amount of hair that you have, electrolysis is the way to go – you see – with electrolysis, it doesn’t matter how deep your hairs are, it doesn’t matter how light or dark your hairs are, it doesn’t matter how dark or light your skin is, it doesn’t matter how thick or thin your hairs are.

Find yourself a skilled electrologist and that is your best bet for ending your unwanted hair problem.

Check in with us and let us know what your experiences are like.

Good Luck.

Electrolysis can handle this.

I have been working on a man’s back that resembles your hair in density and texture, except that my client has hair on every part of his upper arms, shoulders and entire back to the belt line. At least you are not entirely covered. We have seen each other for 2 hours almost every week since August. He is clear from the mid arms, shoulders to middle of the back. I do mainteneance on these areas for a little bit and then proceed on down toward the belt line, treating new areas. I use microflash thermolysis. He shaves, when he can, 2-3 days before treatment and that greatly enhances my speed and identification of growing hairs. He is doing fabulous at being a compliant client so as to get the job finished. At the rate we are going we may complete upper arms, shoulders and full back at around the year mark. I took a picture recently, but it was too blurry for hairtell, so he and I will try again.

You have to find a practitioner that can get good kill rates with decent speed. Newer equipment, proper probe size, PRACTITIONER SKILL, and proper lighting, good levels of intensity and timing will bring you success with electrolysis.

Do you live in the United States? How old are you?

If you choose to get lased first, I would have a doctor check out the moles on your back first. The physician at the laser facility should do this also to make sure there is nothing funky looking in regard to any mole. I’m sure they should cover the visible moles so that nothing is “erased” when the laser energy is applied to or near the mole areas. sslhr, a great laser physician who contributes here, can probably add more information as to how he handles moles on the back.

Electrolysis can handle more than upper lip and other small areas, BELIEVE ME! An upper lip should never take 14 months and if it does, I sure would be very curious as to what the practitioner and client are DOING!!! Don’t be discouraged by such bull remarks. I like all the helpful comments made by the four electrologists above.

You’ve got plenty of information now, but if you could give a hint as to where you live, we may be able to point you in a positive direction to find a competent electrologist or laserologist.

Oh and a big hug for you for posting a picture. We love pictures! Thanks, kitranti.

Dee

Got a lot of good info here, i appreciate it guys.

  1. I’m defiantly gonna get a consultation now, but i wonder does it matter if i get it recently IE Jan, even if i don’t plan on starting treatments until FEB, maybe even MARCH? Or should i just wait until i am ready to go and than start with the consultations.

  2. You asked for my age (im 23) dfahey and my location. Unfortunately i’m not in the USA, i’m in canada, Ottawa Ontario to be exact. Doing a search on these boards for ‘ottawa’ in the last 4 years i wasnt able to find an actually recommended location.

Searching the yellow pages of course brought up quite a few places. Here are web addresses to some in ottawa, these are the only ones i could find with a .COM website.

http://www.glowhairspa.com/en/Electrolysis_78.html
http://www.caresselectrolysis.com/electrolysis.htm
http://www.sophiaesthetic.com/descelectrolysis.htm
http://www.accent-on-beauty.com/aob_service.html#Anchor-Electrolysis-11481

I’m gonna have to read a bit more on this procedure so i can at least tell what a good quality place would be because i have no clue what to look for, and i dont know anyone personally who has had this/lasering done.

So you are still developing your hair pattern since you are only 23. You could start your consultations in January, get some sample treatments and put it all together so you are ready to run by Feb. or March.

Check out this information on Hairfacts concerning electrolysis practitioners as you begin your education:

http://www.hairfacts.com/tips/zapchoose.html

HAIRFACTS would be a helpful place to start reading and you know you can always ask a question on HAIRTELL if something sounds fuzzy to you.

Onward >>>>>>>>>>>>>>!

Dee

I have had laser
I have administered laser

I have had electrolysis
I have administered electrolysis

I have had waxing
I have administered waxing

In my opinion, looking at the amount of hair that you have, electrolysis is the way to go – you see – with electrolysis, it doesn’t matter how deep your hairs are, it doesn’t matter how light or dark your hairs are, it doesn’t matter how dark or light your skin is, it doesn’t matter how thick or thin your hairs are.

Find yourself a skilled electrologist and that is your best bet for ending your unwanted hair problem.

Check in with us and let us know what your experiences are like.

Good Luck.

I didn’t say electrolysis wasn’t a good option. I just think time and money-wise, it would make sense to do a combination in this case. Yes, electrolysis can treat any hair, but it takes that much longer to treat a deep-rooted coarse hair, when that’s the hair that laser will get first. Waxing shouldn’t even be an option here if we’re talking about permanent hair removal.

Btw, I’m curious as to what machine you used if you performed the laser treatments? How long did you do that for, and if you don’t now, can you share why? And since you’ve had laser done on yourself, can you share that experience? It would be helpful to know more about where you’re coming from. Thanks.

I guarantee you that the time required using electrolysis will GREATLY exceed what most electrogists tell you based on my experiences with three different ones. Before you take James’ estimates seriously, you should check out how long it took him to clear that transsexual person’s relatively small beard compared to most guys I know (he has posted that picture of Tina Marie many times). It did work in the end, so I am not doubting Mr. Walker’s abilities at ridding you of your hair. And trans people are on feminizing hormones, so you will have even slower results!

You are an ideal candidate for laser with light skin and black hair…but there is no 100 percent guarantee it will work. You can find quite a few positive reviews of LHR on hair loss websites of guys who have had success on their back after just a couple of treatments. All these reviews are by fair skinned guys with black back hair though:-(

I have found more positive reviews about LHR on hair loss sites than on here!

Hi tembo,

What area did you get electrolysis and what modality was used (galvanic, thermolysis, blend?) Do you have a lot of ingrown hair?

Thanks,

Dee

Hi Tembo,

While it may take more hours of treatment to get an area totally clear using electrolysis, electrology does have the history and clinical data to support good results, with regards to permanency. While it does take longer, in terms of total hours, I can not see where there are any actual cost savings using laser over electrology as most people, even those with excellent results, still need to go through at least one hair growth cycle to get the areas treated with laser totally clear via electrolysis. One should also consider that the price of treatment, on a per hour basis, is much less with electrolysis than it is with laser. Additionally, many electrologists will give clients requiring a lot of work, like an M2F, significant price reductions as they know that the client will be with them for a long time.

In terms of most electrologists underestimating the total number of hours required for total clearance, a lot of this depends upon the client’s dedication in sticking to their treatment plan as well. There is also the fact that when an electrologist gives an estimate during the consultation, the only thing that we can tell a client is the average time it takes to clear a client. Taking the total number of hours required to clear one client and then judging a practitioner’s credibility on that basis is not valid. Some people have shorter growth cycles and will clear quicker than those with a longer cycle. Remember that each individual will ultimately be unique in several respects, but most will fall somewhere in the norm for total treatment times.

Consider that there is no clinical data that shows permanent hair reduction via laser. One of the things that has not yet been demonstrated is how hair free the areas treated by laser are two years and three years post treatment. I have also had people that their laser operators have told them that when they paid for a package to clear an area, they would provide free treatments if the reduction did not meet expectations of hair reduction. Even when these things occur, the final results are sometimes not up to par, but I’ve never heard of a laser operator either giving additional treatments beyond a treatment or two or refunding part of the money if the client did not get a significant permanent reduction of hair in the treated areas.

Realize that I am not knocking laser. If I was a good candidate for this, I would most likely have some areas treated by it. However, when one starts talking about saving time and money by using laser, the time of treatment may be shorter, but I doubt that there will be any significant cost savings, long term, on one process verses the other. The total treatment time frame will still be the same for both methods as this will be dictated by the growth cycle time of the area(s) under treatment. At least electrology, if done properly by both the electrologist and the client, has a proven track record of both permanance and safety - both long-term and short-term.

I am certain that laser technology will eventually improve as more data becomes available and the methodology improves, but there is still a ways to go in this regards. I have also noted that laser effectivity also varies widely from operator to operator, just as it does with electrology. There are also some “perfect clients” that do not get expected results within the expected treatment cycles.

One final note here as well, with regards to the TG community. Many of them have a lot of their facial clearing done prior to the advent of HRT or in the initial stages of the processes. There is no evidence to show that hairs that have already been hormonally stimulated to a specific level of terminal growth will be slowed by the influence of the antiandrogens and HRT. The growth cycle in terminal hairs is primarily a function of the blood supply to the follicles than of hormone levels. If the converse were true, many M2F’s would be shaving a lot less frequently after a few months on HRT. I know that this is definitely not the case!

Ultimately, we will all have to do what needs must to obtain the results we require.

Just my opinions, <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />
Joanie

Hi dfahey,

I stopped going for electrolysis since my last practitioner closed shop in the middle of 2006.

Prior to that, I was treated in a number of places by three different electrologists (although the one who closed shop did the majority of the work since I liked her the best — and she was a TS plus charged only $45 a session with no tip accepted). The middle of my eyebrow was treated with thermolysis initially – but I got bad scarring that lasted for months. My next electrolgist treated the area with blend. At this point, the results in this middle of eyebrow area seem permanent, although it took at least 10 hours to clear the 1-2 centimeter space, and it was not as hairy as I have seen in many other guys (and gals). Overall, very effective, but took too much time and I didn’t enjoy the stares I got after the damage from thermolysis by the first electroligist (who claimed to never have damaged any skin in numerous years of experience of course).

I had my ears treated for strays almost every time I went for an appointment (around 60 hour long sessions plus bonus time many times over the past several years). Usually, we just did 5-10 mins of treatment on each ear during each appointment. I still have strays on my ear, and some hair near the antitragus keeps coming back finer each time. Overall, took too much time and not as effective as I hoped. I never had any thick long hair on my ear (expect on the antiragus, where the few hars were thick, but very short) so I expected faster restults.

I also had the back of my neck treated, and am pleased with the results, but again, it took too much time – a rough estimate would be around 15 hours.

I also had my lower back treated, and am fairly pleased with the results. However, this part took over 20 hours and I had thin low density hair in that area so expected faster progress.

I have tons of fine hair all over my upper back and below my armpits and I would really like to get it all taken care off. However, I can’t go for 200 hourlong sessions of electrolysis as it would probably take that much time. Besides the expense, each session includes time I have to allocate in order to commute to and from the treatment center. For the past three years, I have spent at least 200 hours having electrolysis and driving to and back from the clinic!! And I have not even treated ANY SINGLE part of my body that has thick hair (such as chest, abs, beard, legs, armpits etc…). So far, we have only attacked the finer hair in less dense areas.

So for now, I am hoping that Propecia will reduce my body hair (as it has for some people) or that the new FDA home laser device will give complete clearance temporarily – but at least I can use it myself at home.

I have type 4 skin color and mostly fine hair where I want it removed, such as on the back and under armpits – so I am not a good candidate for laser. I definitely do not want the fine hair getting thicker!

Do you do 6-8 hr electrolysis sessions with lidocaine or other injections dfahey (like Electrology 2000)? The reason I ask is that I currently live in Cleveland and would be willing to come to Columbus some day. What price do you charge and do you offer a discount for 8 hr purchases? I have thought about asking you this in the past.

Joanie says she can not see any actual cost savings using laser over electrology. Well let’s pull some numbers out just to have an example (yes, everyone can dispute the probabilities and everyone’s numbers will be different).

Suppose Kitranti here wants to get his back done. Let’s say he does electrolysis and it takes 2 one hour appointments per week for 10 months (42 weeks) and is charged $50 per hour, but that the last 21 weeks only takes one hour appointments due to his progress. That’s 42 appointments, 63 hours, and $3,150 to the electolygist.

On the other hand he might go to a Laser practitioner where they charge $600 per session and it takes him 7 sessions that take 1.5 hours. So 7 appointments, 10.5 hours, and $4200 to the professional.

However, the client’s time also has value. Suppose he’s making $40,000 per year, then his time is worth $20 per hour which if he has to take time from work without pay, would be another expense. Then there’s travel time and expense. Perhaps one is lucky enough to be only half an hour a way from their hair removal specialist. Now let’s look at the costs.

Electrolysis: 42 appointments times 2 trips of 30 minutes each way for 42 hours. 63 hours sitting at the electrolgysts office. Thus 105 hours at $20 hour and you’ve got another $2,100 of expense for a total of $5,250.

For Laser, 7 appointments would take 7 hours of travel plus 10.5 hours at the office gives a total of 17.5 hours or an additional expense of $350 for a total of $4,550.

Of course the advantage to Laser would go up with a higher income and farther distance to get to the office. And then there’s the additional physical expense of travel (car, subway, etc) that again favors the fewer trip scenario.

This is all assuming that both yield the same satisfactory results. Some people go to IPL (not laser) and have poor results. I had hair on my back very similar to kitranti (I think, hard to remember after 6 years) plus a dark patch at the lower back and 6 appointments of Laser with GentleLase produced almost perfect results (guess I should have been in a clinical study so that it could become official). Yet there are others who may not respond as well.

I agree that overall electrolysis has a better track record, but from real world experiences that have been discovered on this excellent forum, we’ve found clients that had barely any results and others that have taken so much longer than expected. So the few pro’s that report fantastic clearance rates can not always be considered representative of the industry and a few will have less than satisfactory results, either due to a professional that is lacking the skills or just bad luck in how their body reacts to it. Also, it may be trickier to maintain a good schedule for 42 appointments as compared to 7.

It’s all a gamble and an expense, but all the factors need to be considered. More than for most endeavors, research on the general subject and even more research on the individuals that will be performing the actual hair removal, must be gathered with careful diligence.

People such as kitranti are wise to consult this forum and ask questions prior to jumping into a major commitment. Thank you all that contribute to this knowledge base. And good luck to those that take the plunge (it’s usually worth it).

Hi tembo.

Thank you so much for the information you provided. I have an interesting idea to offer and will private message you later today or in the next two days, being that it is Christmas. I just need to work on some details before I e-mail you.

Thanks,

Dee

I completely agree with NoHair on this one. I should also add to his analysis that with that much hair (only top part of the back as in his case), it wouldn’t even cost $600 on average per treatment with laser. It would most likely be around $300-400 per treatment at most. So that laser cost would probably be cut by half, not to mention that in terms of actual time spent DOING treatments, it would be 30-45 mins around 8 times every 3 months. That’s nothing compared to hours and hours of electrolysis, and if it was me in his situation, I would definitely do this and finish with electrolysis to save both time and money as he is a very good candidate for laser (should be an alexandrite laser like GentleLASE in this case and a good tech who will set high settings each time)

Hi Lagirl,

Like a lot of things in life, a few people’s experience with a process does not necessarily indicate substantiation or validity. As I stated, these were opinions, and even with laser from the same operator, several girlfriends of mine, with nearly identical skin/hair colors, have had wildly different results with laser. We need to keep in mind that everyone’s different. This is why so many of the commercials will have a disclaimer “Individual Results May Vary”.

As far as the financial numbers that NoHair put out, most electrologists will usually try to work with a client in arranging their schedules for hours outside of those that they work. Thus the cost factors become intangible. I do not know many people who can write off their time outside of scheduled work hours - even electrologists.

I would concur that time of treatment is a major difference between the two technologies. I have seen very good results in one of my girlfriends, even after two years post treatment with laser. However, I also have a friend that had even more hair to be removed post laser than before. Different operators and different equipment so I can not really say that either the equipment or the operator was the problem. I also had two friends that had quite a bit of difference using the same laser operator and the same equipment, with radically different hair regrowth. This tells me that there is still as much variability in laser as there is with electrology. Both disciplines have the appearance to be as much art as science.

One of the things to realize, especially if you are a light haired TS or a guy with a lot of chest, back hair, etc., is that a lot of electrologists will work for reduced rates, giving you a better deal overall.

Whatever an individual thinks, until a method is tried and the results can be ascertained, the over all economy is not determinable for any individual. Results may be averaged statistically, but in the final analysis, until we try something for ourselves - and see the long term results - economy will be a relative and subjective topic. I have mixed feelings about this, but just like a lot of people will knock electrologists as being ineffective, I have observed that many laser operators would be better off doing other things as well. Like all professions, the laser operator needs to be both skilled and practiced to obtain good results.

JMHO,
Joanie

On a closing note here…I would like to extend my best wishes for a Happy and Joyous Holiday Season. May 2007 bring each and everyone here new experiences of wonder and contentment with life. Joanne Hook, Christmas Eve, 2006.

I agree with your assessment. However, it does make it seem that things are variable with laser, but not with electrolysis, which really isn’t the case considering the posts we even see here with varying electrolysis results as well (take Rachelle’s 1.5 yrs experience with minimal results for example). Also, laser is only known to induce hair on a few areas, mainly women’s face and men’s upper arms/shoulders. It’s really hard to hypothesize on why some of your girlfriends got results and some didn’t without you specifying areas treated, skin and hair type for each, # of treatments, specific laser machine used, settings used, underlying medical conditions etc. In that sense, it’s very similar to the questions we ask ask when someone comes here stating that they didn’t get results from their electrolysis treatments.

Bottom line is neither electrolysis or laser is a 100% guarantee without a proper machine, operator, and technique. But given all of the above are equal, what NoHair and I are saying is that in this case the cost in terms of money and time will probably be less with laser and electrolysis combo, rather than electrolysis alone.

I agree with your assessment. However, it does make it seem that things are variable with laser, but not with electrolysis, which really isn’t the case considering the posts we even see here with varying electrolysis results as well (take Rachelle’s 1.5 yrs experience with minimal results for example). Also, laser is only known to induce hair on a few areas, mainly women’s face and men’s upper arms/shoulders. It’s really hard to hypothesize on why some of your girlfriends got results and some didn’t without you specifying areas treated, skin and hair type for each, # of treatments, specific laser machine used, settings used, underlying medical conditions etc. In that sense, it’s very similar to the questions we ask ask when someone comes here stating that they didn’t get results from their electrolysis treatments.

Bottom line is neither electrolysis or laser is a 100% guarantee without a proper machine, operator, and technique. But given all of the above are equal, what NoHair and I are saying is that in this case the cost in terms of money and time will probably be less with laser and electrolysis combo, rather than electrolysis alone.

This tells me that there is still as much variability in laser as there is with electrology. Both disciplines have the appearance to be as much art as science.

I certainly was not trying to say that laser has variability where electrology does not and I tried to make certain that I did not imply such in the previous post. However, one of the things that is known about laser is that the practice is still relatively new and there are still a lot of things that still have room for improvement with the practice.

Right now, I have consulted several operators and received a lot of radically different answers as to what I can expect. This leaves me feeling very uncertain about the validity of the method for my needs. I’m afraid that I will spend a lot of money and still wind up having to spend a lot of additional money having to retreat the same areas with electrology.

I have been told by a couple of laser operators that they could get me 80% clear within a year. Being primarily blonde (and currently with a lot of gray hair as well) I’m just not buying it as I have friends that achieved a good degree of temporary hair reduction with darker hair than mine with laser, but very little permanent reduction.

About the only hair that I have that might be a good area to try laser on would be my underarms. I am contemplating this as I can get the areas treated for about $60 to $80 per pass. As far as facial, chest and back hair, I get the feeling that the operators I’ve consulted are just blowing smoke my way. Most of this is way too light to be good areas for laser.

I guess that one of my individual sensitivities is that I am part of a group of people that are requiring a lot of permanent hair removal and there are just too many out there trying to get our business and not really deliver the goods. It’s very much a buyer beware market for many of us.

I know that you and NoHair have had very good results with laser and I have no doubts that many others will have good results as well. But being primarily Celtic and Nordic ancestry (and unfortunately some Mediterreanian) with a lot of light colored hair, I’m still waiting for some better clinical information and a higher degree of standardization for the technique before I am willing to admit that laser can more efficent for those with lighter hair colors and darker shades of skin pigmentation. Still too much gray area.

That is my main point here. I envy those who have very dark hair in very lightly pigmented skin. I giuess that there is a downside to the old adage that “blondes have more fun!” We might be a lot easier to see in the dark, but we have a lot less options when it comes to hair removal!

Joanie <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" />