Laser More Likely To Fail.

Hair Removal Methods Laser hair removal
#1

I’ve decided to post this outside of it’s original thread. There were two confusing threads and I wanted to make this more of a general overview.

LAGirl wrote:

I know you had a bad experience Mantaray, but I don’t think it’s fair to say/imply that even if hair sheds, it will return for all. it IS safe to say that if it DOESN’T shed, it definitely wasn’t affected. And that’s something we’d like to point out. On the other hand, there are plenty of people here whose hair doesn’t return after it has shed, myself included.

I’m not sure who you mean by ‘we’. Yourself?

Actually, I wouldn’t phrase it as a bad experience, more like, it was no experience at all. Like many, many people here and elsewhere, the laser manufacturer, the technician, and the advertising failed to substantiate claims. Read what trist is writing, it failed again. Like most, he was told that it would at least remove most of the hair, and like most, it either a) didn’t work, or b) fell out and grew back. If you look through the archives you will see that people fall into catagories:

  1. They wonder about laser because they have a hair problem

  2. They recieved a treatment recently and had very little shedding.

  3. They recieved a treatment and had lots of shedding, but they somehow rarely return to the board after all treatments are complete to at least hint at success.

  4. They do return to the board after all treatments and verify that most hair has indeed grown back.

  5. They return to the board and let us know they were scarred by the laser or arc burns.

Lets not be naive, it only takes a simple search to verify what I’m saying. As for what I say, my words ring true. I have the scientific background and the experience background to state my points. I know the thermodynamic tissue reactions that occur when skin and hair are subject to laser. I base everything I say on factual evidence. This man here, Trist, has had an experience that is right along the lines of the collective opinion that is now shaping around LHR, and that has been exposed nationally. What’s interesting here in San Diego, is that many of the clinics that offered LHR are now re-vamping their clinics away from LHR and using their lasers for pigment irregularity treatments. LHR just hasn’t delivered the success it was hyped to deliver. People are hungry for a ‘magic bullet’ and they’ll spend their money on anything. It’s a rather sad situation. I’m glad some of these more sensible, non-lobby-payoff countries are refusing to grant licenses to Syneron and other laser manufacturers and operators. Our system has lobbyists that let this stuff through, and in this country we’re free to throw our money away on anything, whether it’s quackery or not.

I think for all those that have been told they ‘have issues’, have some out of the ordinary ‘freak condition’, have had some rogue ‘bad experience’, or have been told to go back and ask the technician to double the power so they can have a better chance at removal, but at the risk of getting 3rd degree burns and pustules all over their face and permanent disfigurement …Don’t feel bad. I’s not you. It’s the machine that’s the freak.

#2

I’ve decided to post this outside of it’s original thread. There were two confusing threads and I wanted to make this more of a general overview.

LAGirl wrote:

[quote]I know you had a bad experience Mantaray, but I don’t think it’s fair to say/imply that even if hair sheds, it will return for all. it IS safe to say that if it DOESN’T shed, it definitely wasn’t affected. And that’s something we’d like to point out. On the other hand, there are plenty of people here whose hair doesn’t return after it has shed, myself included.

I’m not sure who you mean by ‘we’. Yourself?[/quote]

I think by ‘we’ she is referring to myself and others who have had success with laser hair removal.

If you look through the archives you will see that people fall into catagories:

  1. They wonder about laser because they have a hair problem
  1. They recieved a treatment recently and had very little shedding.
  1. They recieved a treatment and had lots of shedding, but they somehow rarely return to the board after all treatments are complete to at least hint at success.
  1. They do return to the board after all treatments and verify that most hair has indeed grown back.
  1. They return to the board and let us know they were scarred by the laser or arc burns.

What percentage of posters fall into each of the above categories? I haven’t read many posts about scarring. Sure it can happen, but it is rare. Yes, I had arc burns from the Aurora. It was on a test spot, and because of that my practitioner quit using it on me. She used a different device and I had better results. You may think otherwise, but practitioner experience and skill is a big factor in how well LHR works.

Lets not be naive, it only takes a simple search to verify what I’m saying. As for what I say, my words ring true. I have the scientific background and the experience background to state my points. I know the thermodynamic tissue reactions that occur when skin and hair are subject to laser. I base everything I say on factual evidence.

I am not trying to flame you, but why did you get the Comet treatments in the first place if your scientific background tells you that it won’t work?

This man here, Trist, has had an experience that is right along the lines of the collective opinion that is now shaping around LHR, and that has been exposed nationally.

Collective opinion according to who? Maybe among hairtell memebers. Keep in mind that most of the people that post on a forum like this are going to post here because they are unhappy and are venting.

  1. They recieved a treatment and had lots of shedding, but they somehow rarely return to the board after all treatments are complete to at least hint at success.

People that are happy and move on, like Balius, don’t come back because they feel no need to. I may very well do the same some day. My hair removal goals are more abmitious. I seek hair removal more than just reduction or thinning. It is an ambitious goal I know. I may not totally achieve it, but the more that I can remove the better. I am happy with my results so far. But once you get something you are after, sometimes you want more. I am here to read about new advancements in hair removal. But I am also here as a counterpoint to those who say it doesn’t work at all, or that it never works.

What’s interesting here in San Diego, is that many of the clinics that offered LHR are now re-vamping their clinics away from LHR and using their lasers for pigment irregularity treatments. LHR just hasn’t delivered the success it was hyped to deliver.

That’s a good thing. If they can’t perform competent LHR, they should not be doing it. If they can’t find competent practitioners, then they shouldn’t be peforming LHR.

I think for all those that have been told they ‘have issues’, have some out of the ordinary ‘freak condition’, have had some rogue ‘bad experience’, or have been told to go back and ask the technician to double the power so they can have a better chance at removal, but at the risk of getting 3rd degree burns and pustules all over their face and permanent disfigurement …Don’t feel bad. It’s not you. It’s the machine that’s the freak.

I am sorry to read that LHR didn’t work for you. Are lasers overhyped? Yes. They don’t work for everyone. Ten percent of people seeking it are non-responders. It would be helpful to know why, but they don’t and that’s just the way it is. And if the percentage of non repsonders is unacceptable to someone, they are left with three choices: shave, spend months or years with electrolysis if it’s a large area, or accept the hair growth and live with it!

I knew going into it that it would not remove every hair that I wanted it to. But it got most of it. How many people are willing to make the committment of time and money it takes to have an entire back or chest cleared from scratch with electrolysis?

RJC2001

#3

I have to concur with all of RC2001 points. I’m also here for the same reason. I think you really need to consider why people come to the forums and take the time to actually post before breaking out the types of posts you see (not to say that I agree with the way you broke them out). People seek out forums in the first place and post when they have questions. If someone has had a successful treatment, it won’t even occur to them that there are forums out there and consumers would like to know what others’ results have been like. There is also a subset of people who come to the forums to find answers to questions before they actually have treatments, but once again, once the questions are answered and they have their treatments, only a very tiny portion comes back to post their results, UNLESS they are bad – in which case they come here again to seek more information or to vent. We would have assume that most of those people got good results because otherwise they would be coming back to vent (like you for example).

I also agree with RC2001. Whenever someone decides to try LHR, they need to realize that it doesn’t work for all and that’s just how it is for now. There isn’t significant proof as to why that is yet (by the way, with your scientific background, I’m suprised you decided to go with the Comet, when it’s a very new machine with “new” approach to LHR, instead of one of the more established and proven machines like GentleLASE, Apogee, or LightSheer). So it’s a bit of a gamble. I was willing to take it, but wouldn’t be upset if it didn’t work because I knew ahead of time that that’s a possibility. Negative reactions come when you have too high of expectations for something that is not 100% guaranteed to work, UNLIKE how it is portrayed in ads etc. I work in marketing, so I’m all too familiar with it. What you hear about LHR (or anything else that is being sold to consumers for that matter) is marketing hype. Smart consumers learn to distinguish between facts and marketing speak.

By “we” I meant those of us who consistently answer questions here, and yes, “we” are the ones who actually got good results as RC2001 pointed out.

#4

I think by ‘we’ she is referring to myself and others who have had success with laser hair removal.

Yourself, LAGirl, and who? What others? One? Two? Give me a number. And the two that are proponents here have a grossly disporportionate number of posts as if that will balance the number that post once about lack of success and then leave it at that.

What percentage of posters fall into each of the above categories? I haven’t read many posts about scarring. Sure it can happen, but it is rare. Yes, I had arc burns from the Aurora. It was on a test spot, and because of that my practitioner quit using it on me. She used a different device and I had better results. You may think otherwise, but practitioner experience and skill is a big factor in how well LHR works.

It’s for you to produce numbers. I could, and very well may. Afterall, those that argue lost causes requently will demand the otherside do more work. They will wait till the opposite side produces fact, then will ask again, frequently trying to discredit the sources provided. If you haven’t read the post with the female that had most of her face burned, then you haven’t monitored this board close enough to provide that conjecture.

Practitioner skill is a factor, but only a factor. The science behind has to be of worth. Of which many on this board have no inkling of the science involved. They have no knowledge of the term ‘nanometer’ and they erroneously talk of shedding as if it’s actual hair loss.

I am not trying to flame you, but why did you get the Comet treatments in the first place if your scientific background tells you that it won’t work?

Well, that’s like asking why did people invest in Enron. People learn things along the way. Actual proven methods, like electrolysis, take time to justify themselves. I gave it a shot and there’s no harm in that. Can I not test the methods and instruments that the LHR community deems practical? Even you suggested to seekers here to try opting for the Comet. I can ask, why did you provide that advice when you have nothing to base any success on? See, this is just a microcosm of the whole state of LHR, people say things they know nothing about.

Collective opinion according to who? Maybe among hairtell memebers. Keep in mind that most of the people that post on a forum like this are going to post here because they are unhappy and are venting

Collective opinion according to the dissatisfaction being so high that it prompted a national network to investigate the deception going on in the LHR community. And to expose these very real deceptions taking place. No, that’s incorrect and your conjecture. Most of the people here are not just the bad apples. When one goes to a music bulletin board, does one find only unhappy people? No. When one goes to a computer hardware board does one find only the unhappy? No. People gravitate to the boards due to many factors, whether to praise or give advice.

People that are happy and move on, like Balius, don’t come back because they feel no need to. I may very well do the same some day. My hair removal goals are more abmitious. I seek hair removal more than just reduction or thinning. It is an ambitious goal I know. I may not totally achieve it, but the more that I can remove the better. I am happy with my results so far. But once you get something you are after, sometimes you want more. I am here to read about new advancements in hair removal. But I am also here as a counterpoint to those who say it doesn’t work at all, or that it never works.

You can be here for any reason you like. Just don’t mislead people. Don’t give advice that’s not substantiated, don’t say others aren’t being truthful when events really have, in fact, happened. This is completely erroneous and irresponsible behavior. These people are desperate and others are misleading them.

That’s a good thing. If they can’t perform competent LHR, they should not be doing it. If they can’t find competent practitioners, then they shouldn’t be peforming LHR.

It’s the machines. These people are using the machines in accordance to the manufacturers standard operating proceedures.

I am sorry to read that LHR didn’t work for you.

Actually you can be sorry that it hasn’t worked for a lot of people. Just read the archives.

If someone has had a successful treatment, it won’t even occur to them that there are forums out there and consumers would like to know what others’ results have been like. There is also a subset of people who come to the forums to find answers to questions before they actually have treatments, but once again, once the questions are answered and they have their treatments, only a very tiny portion comes back to post their results, UNLESS they are bad –

This is complete conjecture. I could very well state the opposite and it would carry just as much credibility. I could very well tell you that there are millions of people that have had unsucessful treatments and they don’t even bother to post here because they are tired of all the misinformers here on these special interest bulletin boards.

Mantaray

#5

There are only like 3-4 people on here that have posted that laser didn’t work for them at all after many treatments. Most posts here are from people who are in the process of treatments and then you never hear from them again. I’ve been reading this forum for over a year, in addition to 2 other forums, so I have a pretty good idea. You should check out the other ones too. It would give you a wider perspective as only a few people post on all 3. What I’m saying is based on all 3 forums, which encompasses a lot more individual experiences. There have been more success stories posted on the other forums recently as well. You should take the time to check them out too if you’re going to try to make a general conjecture. (I recommend also talking to people like “sslhr” from Smooth Solutions in TX on the cosmetic enhancements forum who has been in business doing this for 8 years or so. I’m sure he can give you a better estimate of how many people are non-responders) There are more than enough posts on all forums to indicate that laser DOES work for a lot of people, so I’m not sure what your final point it. Are you saying that laser works for like 5% of people and doesn’t for the other 95%? Your headline “Laser more likely to fail” is really not based on anything scietific. We always clearly indicate that laser doesn’t work for everyone.

#6

Nobody knows for sure what % of people are nonresponders but its definetly closer to 50%. I have no idea who came up with 10%, must have been all the sales people in the business. If there were 100 people as hairy as me you think 90 would be happy, no way, nobody would be happy getting 5% reduction in some areas and nothing in others after 20 treatments. And also quit bringing up go too the other sites and check them out, their the biggest losers on the internet and im sure andrea will agree about those evil witches at kittys. You sure repeat yourself alot, maybe its time for you to take a break.

#7

Pokes head in

I came with questions. I got answers. I have been told the joules used on me were too low (here and at the other forum for laser), but I’m trusting my tech.

I’ve had 3 treatments, beginning in October, and so far I’m happy with the results. It’s too soon to tell how permanent this will be, if I even have 80% total reduction, I’ll be happy.

One nice thing. I’m doing chin/upper lip (I’m female.) I was waiting for appointment #3 and there was a cock-up with the appointment, not the tech’s fault (she comes into my doctor’s office.) When she was doing my face (I waited, I always carry reading material for doctor’s offices) she gave me a free underarm treatment to make up for the two hour wait.

I was thrilled, particularly as I’m doing the underarms next.

I’ll be back when my treatments are done, to let you know how they worked. And I don’t know how people take higher joules, that HURTS, and I have very good pain tolerance.

I hate reading things when people report that it doesn’t work. That scares me. I don’t have the pain tolerance nor the cash for electrolysis.

#8

we can “take a break” and then this site wouldn’t exist. on the other hand, if you didn’t post, nothing would change. noone on here praises laser. we speak from experience, good one that is, and mostly just answer specific questions to avoid people getting burned etc because so many techs out there don’t know what they’re doing. just read all the posts from people who are very glad someone takes their time to do it. maybe you should consider helping out with that instead of just posting your negative reactions only based on your singular bad experience. you’re really not contributing anything and just sound bitter and pathetic. yes, you didn’t get results, yes life sucks. now you have to live with it. i hope this helps you vent, i don’t really see what else you get out of it.

#9

by Mantaray
And the two that are proponents here have a grossly disporportionate number of posts as if that will balance the number that post once about lack of success and then leave it at that.

Are you suggesting I am making a large number of posts to drown out those who have not have success? That’s ridiculous! You’re just bitter, and that’s understandable. But don’t take your frustration out on forum members who have had success with laser.

by Mantaray
If you haven’t read the post with the female that had most of her face burned, then you haven’t monitored this board close enough to provide that conjecture.

Yes, I did read that post. After all with my “disproportionate number of posts” I’m probably monitoring the board very closely. I didn’t say there were no posts about scarring, I said there weren’t many. I didn’t say there weren’t any:

by RJC2001
I haven’t read many posts about scarring. Sure it can happen, but it is rare.

by RJC2001
I am not trying to flame you, but why did you get the Comet treatments in the first place if your scientific background tells you that it won’t work?

by Mantaray
Well, that’s like asking why did people invest in Enron. People learn things along the way. Actual proven methods, like electrolysis, take time to justify themselves. I gave it a shot and there’s no harm in that. Can I not test the methods and instruments that the LHR community deems practical?

Sure you can. I am just trying to understand your logic after this statement:

by Mantaray
I have the scientific background and the experience background to state my points. I know the thermodynamic tissue reactions that occur when skin and hair are subject to laser.

And no, I am not accusing you of being untruthful, as you imply later. Again I am just trying to understand your logic.

by Mantaray
Even you suggested to seekers here to try opting for the Comet. I can ask, why did you provide that advice when you have nothing to base any success on?

When I recommended the Comet, I specifically said that I had not been treated with it. I had been treated successfully with the diode laser, which is part of the comet, and I had been treated with the Aurora, which uses RF. And in some of the posts where I recommended the Comet I based it on your experience with it. And you were quite enthusiastic about it! I recommended the Comet based on items from the Syneron website and your experience. And yes, Syneron has backed off on some of their claims in treating poor target hair. Also you were recommending the Comet to some people I was recommending a YAG laser for.

by Mantaray
You can be here for any reason you like. Just don’t mislead people. Don’t give advice that’s not substantiated, don’t say others aren’t being truthful when events really have, in fact, happened.This is completely erroneous and irresponsible behavior. These people are desperate and others are misleading them.

When I give advice, it is based on my experience and things that I have read, and I clearly state that. Just because it was not your experience, that does not mean it’s misleading.
And when have I accused anyone of being untruthful? I have never done that. Until now that is. That claim you made is a lie plain and simple! There, now I accused someone of being untruthful. So now technically you are right.

by Mantaray
It’s the machines. These people are using the machines in accordance to the manufacturers standard operating proceedures.

And how do you know that? If it didn’t work they would all be out of business.

RJC2001

#10

Mathematically, I was wondering how many people get LHR. Consider if a clinic treats 20 people per day. Multiply that by how many clinics in an area. Then, consider how many clinics there are nationwide and then worldwide. However, you should consider that there are repeat customers about every 8 weeks. Anyway, the bottom line is that there is an enormous amount of people getting LHR. Consider that number of people to how many negative stories we hear, and its is a tiny percentage. Of course, to be fair, the positive posters are a tiny percentage, as well.

Of course, if the majority of people who have had LHR and negative experiences with it, the rumblings about them would be like thunder. You would be hearing all sorts of noise about how much of a scam LHR is through a host of other sources besides these forums.

#11

BRR,

i agree and disagree with you.
your argument may ring true but also consider these thoughts…

i would think that most are not brave enough to go public about their experiences w/ lhr whether they are sucessful or not. and not to mention most people arent going to care to hear about it, it sort of seems like a taboo topic. societies (especially usa)take on body hair, leaves many quite humiliated by their hair issues. most people w/ hair issues, (i tend to think) are desperate to rid themselves of their hair issues. so if they find any means to ease or rid their hair issues they jump on it and feed into it. having hair issues can be like a mental disease and it is worse for some than others.there is alot of mystery where lhr is concerned and i could speculate on all aspects of it and still not come to solid ground. i just try to be open to the positive and the negative, so that i may have the clearest point of view possible. i would think however that in several or more years time that if there are major negative aspects of lhr or if its just a flop, itll surface somehow. i just think its really sad when people trust in hollow promises and are let down, $ & #s are usually the most important issues to any business.

-take care

#12

Very good point(s)! Time will tell.

I’ve had a positive experience and I do hope that the vast majority of people have positive experiences as well. It certainly would be disheartening to find out that there is a huge number of people that had negative experiences.

#13

RJC,

Actually, you do have a disproportionate number of posts, that’s very clear. And an attempt to paint me as a ‘bitter’ rogue is an amateur strategy. I’m half expecting to be singled out as having a wry hormonal imbalance next. As for “taking it out on members of this board.” That statement couldn’t be more false. First, nobody was named, and you freely posted to this thread. I think you feel that a dream that you hold dear is being brought to its reality. I’m not bitter, believe me, I have no reason to be. I’m posting on a forum that Andrea has supplied, and I’m grateful for her to allow this type of truth bearing.

If you did see the post pertaining to the female that suffered due to LHR, then it is incorrect to take the attitude that it was just a rare occurence. If only a fraction of LHR recipients post here, then only a fraction of LHR injuries will be posted here. That is logic, which you can’t refute. Further, when one does pursue litigation due to injury, or litigation of any sort, lawyers will always tell their clients to not discuss the case outside legal consul. There could be a great many injuries due to LHR out there and we would never know about it. As for your statement of “I said there weren’t many. I didn’t say there weren’t any.” That statement takes me aback. You have to realize how much somebody suffers when they have burns of that magnitude.

As for understanding any logic I have presented, I’ll simplify it for you:

If a method has been developed, and the method’s outcome could be beneficia, and, the method is completely in reach for a person such as me to try. Then, it is understandable for someone such as myself to try this method. However, if the method does not work, by looking closer and seeing how the method applies, and where it would have fallen short, we can gain experience in knowing what is truly effective and what is a poor application of science.

If you indeed have been treated successfully with the Aurora, then why didn’t you continue treatments with it? You contradict yourself, and further, how can you possibly recommend a treatment with a high-powered laser after reading something on an Internet bulletin board. See, the science/ medical world doesn’t really work that way.

Well, a suckers born every minute, and when a supposed 'magic bullet is held up, people are bound to open their wallets. That’s what the 20/20 investigative series exposed.

…Oh by the way, recent failure stories:

http://www.hairtell.com/ubbthreads/showflat.php/Cat/0/Number/30048/an/0/page/0#30048

http://www.hairtell.com/ubbthreads/showflat.php/Cat/0/Number/29981/an/0/page/0#29981

Are you saying that as long as this board has been here this is half the inventory of laser failures? I think not.

My claims are: Laser will either fail, or will require so many treatments that the skin health suffers. It is naive to think treating skin with a high-powered laser will not cause premature aging. The studies done to conclude laser use have not been time tested enough, and have had to be under the same scrutiny as other medical proceedures because of it’s non-invasive nature. People seeking laser treatment should understand that the contracts they sign waive any kind of guarantee by the clinic, that high heat stuns hair growth anyway, and that shedding is just a reaction to anchor protein denaturation, it does not signify hair loss. The hair will still complete it’s hair cycle if capable and will regrow, sometimes months or years later. people should understand that somebody reading posts over and over on an internet bulletin board does not grant that person license to recommend treatment powers, effectiveness, or what is safe for one’s skin. You can be severly burned, you can suffer blister scars. It is not rare.

#14

OK, now I just have to say something with all this banter going on. Nobody on this site really knows all the answers…do they? We base are OPINIONS on our experiences. Doing research of published articles may give you a broader view of lhr but even then the research is most likely skewed to whomever sponsered the study…that is the way it goes whether its medications or the most doctor recommended toothpaste. I hope lhr works and so do a lot of people.
I believe there are posters on this site who have had negative lhr experiences and by all means should say so. I believe some people are in the profession and would not want to ever say it does not work. I believe there are success stories out there too. We all know a person would much rather gripe about the negative and so we see that on this site. Have you ever talked to a person who had a successful hair transplant? They are out there, there have been bad results as well.
This site was originally started as a quackwatch type of thing, wasn’t it? So the debate continues, but no one is right yet…
I’ll stop rambling on about this since that serves no one, just my opinion.
This is not an attack. I respect your opinions. It’s good to have pos and neg comments but why debate over two different experiences(or two different objectives for writing pos and neg). Can anyone be truly right with no doubt?
I am a doctor, not one of the 3 out of 4 who recommend anything.

#15

noone is disputing that there are some people who get burned. that’s partly why these boards are helpful as well, for people to deal and find out why this happened when they can’t get the answers from someone who did this to them due to their fear of possible legal action etc that can be taken. what sounds wrong in your post through is that you talk about LHR as if it’s a medical procedure where this type of “medical malpractice” (as I’ll call it here) is more likely to happen than in any other procedure, cosmetic or not. there are risks in almost ANY procedure you undertake, electrolysis and waxing with respect to hair removal included, but not limited to botox treatments, acne treatments, microdebrasion treatments, etc etc. as with any procedure, if someone doesn’t know what they’re doing and are performing some kind of procedure on another person, there is a possibility for some kind of negative effect to occur, be it burns, scarring, etc.

and you can’t make conjectures about laser’s lack of permanency, stating that the hair will grow back, it’s just a matter of time. I or RC2001 can’t say the opposite, but that doesn’t mean that your statement is true either. there just isn’t sufficient proof for either conclusion. we’re more likely to lean towards the positive assumption due to our positive experiences (and several other people on here who post or used to post once in a while like ‘hairlessinla’ who hasn’t had anything grow back 5 years after his treatments for example) and you are more likely to lean towards a negative assumption due to your lack of results that you expected.

#16

I don’t think it was me to whom you were referring when asking why not continuing with treatments with Aurora. I have had treatments with Aurora and they appear to have worked. My last treatment was a year ago, this month. I have not had additional treatments because I’ve reached a level of reduction that I wanted and it remains. No point in getting anything additional.

The tech had been using maximum settings and the remaining hairs had become much lighter and thinner. So, I think the Aurora reached the point of not being as effective as it was in the beginning.

#17

Mantaray wrote:

Actually, you do have a disproportionate number of posts, that’s very clear.

So what’s your point? It’s a bad thing to have a lot of posts? I’ve been on this forum since May of '02 so that may have something to do with it. Nonetheless, I don’t have to justify my number of posts to you.

Mantaray wrote:

I think you feel that a dream that you hold dear is being brought to its reality.

So now you are adding mind reading to your expert scientific capabilities? I think you need a little more practice in that area. Laser hair removal has lived up to my expectations, so there is no “dream” involved.

Mantray wrote:

If you did see the post pertaining to the female that suffered due to LHR, then it is incorrect to take the attitude that it was just a rare occurence. If only a fraction of LHR recipients post here, then only a fraction of LHR injuries will be posted here. That is logic, which you can’t refute.

The number of posts about scarring or other permanent injury is small compared to the number of posts about success or lack of success. That’s logic too!

Mantaray wrote:

Further, when one does pursue litigation due to injury, or litigation of any sort, lawyers will always tell their clients to not discuss the case outside legal consul. There could be a great many injuries due to LHR out there and we would never know about it.

So there “could” be injuries out there we don’t know about, therefore they must not be rare? That’s an interesting leap of logic. I think it is something you would term “conjecture!”

Mantaray wrote:

As for your statement of “I said there weren’t many. I didn’t say there weren’t any.” That statement takes me aback. You have to realize how much somebody suffers when they have burns of that magnitude.

When I referred to the number of posts about injuries, that does not mean I don’t realize how an individual suffered as a result of their burns. Whether the injuries are common and whether a specific injury causes suffering are two different things and you are trying to say they’re the same. You are switching your argument from logic to emotion. Sure, severe burns do cause a lot of suffering, but that is not the same thing as frequency of such injuries.

Mantaray wrote:

If a method has been developed, and the method’s outcome could be beneficia, and, the method is completely in reach for a person such as me to try. Then, it is understandable for someone such as myself to try this method.

That makes sense.

Mantaray wrote:

However, if the method does not work, by looking closer and seeing how the method applies, and where it would have fallen short, we can gain experience in knowing what is truly effective and what is a poor application of science.

But you also wrote this:

I have the scientific background and the experience background to state my points. I know the thermodynamic tissue reactions that occur when skin and hair are subject to laser.

So you want to try a hair removal method that you think may be beneficial. It doesn’t work for you, a statement you make which I am not arguing. But you had the scientific background, thermodynamic reactions and all, to tell you it doesn’t work. OK, if that’s your line of reasoning.

Mantaray wrote:

If you indeed have been treated successfully with the Aurora, then why didn’t you continue treatments with it?

I was not able to have treatment with it on darker skin, which was characteristic of the areas I wanted to have treated next. On other areas, I was getting diminished returns with later treatments, I needed more fluence which the Aurora could not provide. Plus my practitioner changed doctors and the new one did not have the Aurora.

Mantaray wrote:

You contradict yourself, and further, how can you possibly recommend a treatment with a high-powered laser after reading something on an Internet bulletin board.

As far as contradiction, see the previous paragraph. And I was treated with the Lightsheer diode laser at 50J. When I speak from experience I say so, and when I speak from what I have read, whether it is on a website or from a clinical paper, I say so.

Mantaray wrote:

Are you saying that as long as this board has been here this is half the inventory of laser failures? I think not.

And where did I say that?

Mantaray wrote:

My claims are: Laser will either fail, or will require so many treatments that the skin health suffers.

So you are saying that laser won’t work, or it will work and damage your skin. That would be like me saying laser works for everyone and can’t possibly damage the skin. And I never made either of those claims. You are taking an extreme position that you can’t back up. You are free to promote it all you want though.

Mantaray wrote:

It is naive to think treating skin with a high-powered laser will not cause premature aging.

You have nothing to base that on. BTW, lasers and IPL are used for skin rejuvenation. And often when they are used at even shorter wavelengths than used for hair removal. The shorter wavelengths are even more readily absorbed by melanin. I suppose you think that is unfounded also. 20/20 hasn’t done a story on that so it must be OK. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" />

Mantaray wrote:

The hair will still complete it’s hair cycle if capable and will regrow, sometimes months or years later.

By what mechanism does hair suddenly regenerate itself years later? That’s an urban legend.

Mantaray wrote:

people should understand that somebody reading posts over and over on an internet bulletin board does not grant that person license to recommend treatment powers, effectiveness, or what is safe for one’s skin.

I think most of the time people who give advice do so based on their experience and they say so. If they give advice based on other posts, they also state that. You don’t think the reader can decide for themselves the value of the information, that they can’t think for themselves? That’s demeaning!

I thought one of the reasons this forum exists is to exchange information and give advice.

RJC2001

#18

Mataray, scarring is caused by someone using a device when they don’t know what they’re doing, NOT the device itself. when properly operated, there is no scarring of any kind. you’ve even consistently mentioned that you maxed out on settings on your treatments, same with me and RC2001 etc etc. and you don’t claim to have experienced scarring. so, any issues you may have with laser cannot be in any way connected with any possible occurence that can be hypothetically caused by an untrained technician. once again, that applies to any industry out there. it’s like saying there is a high probability of dying (or scarring in this case) by riding in a taxi. sure there is some insignificant risk, but the chances are not that high if the taxi driver knows how to drive. however, if he doesn’t, then sure, you are very likely to get into an accident and die (or scar <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> ).

#19

Hi there,

I’m skin type 4 or 5. I’ve had more than 20 gentle lase and gentle yag treatments on my face and bikini. I would get excellent shedding and then it ALL came back. I don’t have a hormone problem. The only place it worked was my upper lip and my bikini. I’m now having electrolysis done on my face. I think laser works well for some people and in some areas. I know it does NOT work for a lot of people…and after talking to various practitioners and doctors…I suspect it is sooo much more than 10% especially if you look at non-white individuals. (I have a feeling this site has many more caucasians responding…based on the skin types I see…which can lead to bias…but thats a whole different issue.)

Here is my postive optimistic response to this issue:

There is something we should consider. Though Laser removal has not been permanent or even reduction for me, its been great for me for temporary removal. As much as I know…most people do shed and the hair does stay away for a while (from a few weeks to a months). Also, hair sheds at very low heat levels (I know this because I talked to a cosmetic doctor and I’m a med student). I think people would be happy with a safe home laser device that would cause consistent shedding and leave someone hair free for even just 3 weeks. I know I would. I think laser techs and doctors make a lot of money doing things that we could be doing at our homes for much cheaper. For those of you out there who are looking for temporary (and maybe some permanent removal) that keeps your skin hair free for weeks with out pain, stuble and adverse effect…why are we not pressuring the laser companies to give us such a product instead of keeping the techonology exclusive? If you can do home electrolysis…you certainly can do home laser. I would love to hear people’s thought and feelings on this. And before I get a barage of complaints from techs…I mean a low powered device that causes shedding but may not enough to kill the hair follicle (something that won’t come near damaging skin) I believe in the power of techonology and the power of consumers. If people are intersted I can create a form letter and obtain addresses for laser companies…I’m sure the techonolgy is out there. Can you imagine having something at home that you can use wherever and whenever you want and you only use every few weeks at the most! Let me know how you feel.

#20

sol1, can you explain what you said in more detail. first you say that ALL hair grew back after you mention that you had treatments on bikini and face, but in the very next sentence you say that you had great results on bikini and upper lip. Correct me if I’m wrong, but you’re saying that you did achieve good permament reduction on upper lip and bikini, but only having trouble with hair growing back on other parts of your face, like chin and sideburns I assume? Your statement is a bit misleading, so wanted to clear up. thanks.