Laser counterproductive!..

We had personal experience which suggested that after laser treatments more hair grew back on areas which were previously hairless. At that time the techs and the docs smiled and decisively ruled out this possibility.

Now there are studies coming out that suggest that we were right. Laser can cause new hair to grow by stimulating ajasent hair follicles. It is definitely something to look into.

I have also heard of laser technicians reimbursing their former clients who didn’t have permanent hair removal after treatments. It is against the law to advertise laser as permanent hair removal by means of laser, and if you can prove that this is what was promiced to you, there is no reason why you would not win that case. Those with a malpractice insurance will not be covered because insurance companies do not pay for inafficacy.

So all those who see laser just as an expensive and longer lasting waxing should make sure that they’re not growing extra hair because of it.
And all those who have spent money on laser as a permanent hair removal method, should get their money back.

Good luck!

yb, I’m sure you’re right. My laser tech told me to expect the possibility of regrowth from previously dormant follicles. Hence the need to multiple treatments.

Not only that. You will have regrowth from active follicles. So if only this would be the problem, one could treat laser as a long term wax. Nothing wrong with that – if you pay more you get a longer term solution. But follicles which never grew hair before could also start growing hair. This means that if you have 100 hairs on your chin, and if you treat them with laser, you could expect 120 and 150 and 200 in a short while.
Now, was it worth it if now you’re shorter on cash and have double the problem you started out with to only have an interim one happy month?

Hi yb, where can I find in Internet that docs or studies that suggest that possibility?
It would be helpful to me.

Thank you in advance,

Francisca Rodriguez Ubeda
RN and electrologist

Hi, Francisca. Here it is:

Skin & Allergy News, The Leading Independent Newspaper for Dermatologists (June 2003 - Volume 34 - Number 6)

Article is called “Laser Hair Removal May Backfire, It Can Stimulate New Hair Growth”. By F. Kirn, Sacramento Bureau.

Thanks yb for the information.
Do you know where can I see it? And if I can get a copy.

Sincerely,

Francisca Rodriguez Ubeda
RN and electrologist

Sure! Luckily, the magazine is available online, and the registration is FREE! So here it is:

http://www2.eskinandallergynews.com/

(Click on ‘back issues’, choose issue and click on the article name.)

Enjoy!

Thank you very much, yb. :wink:

I have already had it. It is helpful to me. :smile:

Francisca Rodriguez Ubeda
RN and electrologist

ANAHEIM, CALIF. — Some individuals having a laser procedure for hair removal are getting the opposite of what they desire: new terminal hair growth adjacent to treated areas.

“This is real, and it’s out there,” Dr. Ranella J. Hirsch said at the annual meeting of the American Society for Laser Medicine and Surgery. “There seems to be a predominance in the chin and sideburn area.”

Among those who have seen and treated this paradoxical effect, there has been a sense that the blame lies with lasers with shorter wave lengths used at fluences that are too low—the kind of undertreatment mistake more likely to be made by inexperienced physicians and boutique cosmeticians.

That appears to be only partially true, however, said Dr. Hirsch of the Wellman Laboratories of Photomedicine at Massachusetts General Hospital, Boston.

Dr. Hirsch reported on 12 of these cases—and said she has heard of more than 100—and they are associated with many types of lasers and fluences used.

“We know of physician-treated cases, and there was nothing done wrong,” she said in an interview.

The types of lasers used in the cases she has collected run the gamut from the 694-nm long-pulsed ruby laser and the 800-nm diode laser to the 1,064-nm neodymium:YAG laser. There is a published report of hypertrichosis associated with intense pulsed light treatment.

Most of the cases occur in treated women with olive or darker complexions, from Fitzpatrick skin type III to V. But even that is just a tendency, not a rule, Dr. Hirsch said in the interview. She knows of the case of a blonde, blue-eyed woman—“a true Fitzpatrick type II”—who suddenly grew a patch of chest hair following a treatment for hairs on the neck.

Removing the new hair growth requires diligence because a patient with a darker skin type is the kind of patient in whom it is easy to damage pigment, Dr. Hirsch said.

When she treats a patient with this hypertrichosis, she uses a long wavelength, short pulses, and a high fluence. Because of the care that must be taken, some individuals require 10-15 treatments for adequate removal.

Is this hypertrichosis truly initiated by the treatment? Although it is considered a myth that such things as shaving can transform vellus hair into thick terminal hair, it is possible to theorize that heat injury could stimulate follicles to enter an anagen phase through the signaling protein known as Sonic hedgehog, Dr. Hirsch said.

“We don’t know, but it certainly makes sense,” she added. "
Here is the article that you are talking about, and while this study asks many more questions than it answers, as most studies do,I read that the doctor doing the study TREATS the patients that she studies who have experienced this tragedy, as you have, with LASER to help them get rid of the abnormal growth triggered for unknown reasons. This leads me to believe that this study is by no means intended to discredit laser in general, and is not promoting ELECTROLOGY as the only solution. If anything it makes a strong case that PRACTITIONER SKILL is of UTMOST IMPORTANCE.

ANAHEIM, CALIF. — Some individuals having a laser procedure for hair removal are getting the opposite of what they desire: new terminal hair growth adjacent to treated areas.

“This is real, and it’s out there,” Dr. Ranella J. Hirsch said at the annual meeting of the American Society for Laser Medicine and Surgery. “There seems to be a predominance in the chin and sideburn area.”

Among those who have seen and treated this paradoxical effect, there has been a sense that the blame lies with lasers with shorter wave lengths used at fluences that are too low—the kind of undertreatment mistake more likely to be made by inexperienced physicians and boutique cosmeticians.

That appears to be only partially true, however, said Dr. Hirsch of the Wellman Laboratories of Photomedicine at Massachusetts General Hospital, Boston.

Dr. Hirsch reported on 12 of these cases—and said she has heard of more than 100—and they are associated with many types of lasers and fluences used.

“We know of physician-treated cases, and there was nothing done wrong,” she said in an interview.

The types of lasers used in the cases she has collected run the gamut from the 694-nm long-pulsed ruby laser and the 800-nm diode laser to the 1,064-nm neodymium:YAG laser. There is a published report of hypertrichosis associated with intense pulsed light treatment.

Most of the cases occur in treated women with olive or darker complexions, from Fitzpatrick skin type III to V. But even that is just a tendency, not a rule, Dr. Hirsch said in the interview. She knows of the case of a blonde, blue-eyed woman—“a true Fitzpatrick type II”—who suddenly grew a patch of chest hair following a treatment for hairs on the neck.

Removing the new hair growth requires diligence because a patient with a darker skin type is the kind of patient in whom it is easy to damage pigment, Dr. Hirsch said.

When she treats a patient with this hypertrichosis, she uses a long wavelength, short pulses, and a high fluence. Because of the care that must be taken, some individuals require 10-15 treatments for adequate removal.

Is this hypertrichosis truly initiated by the treatment? Although it is considered a myth that such things as shaving can transform vellus hair into thick terminal hair, it is possible to theorize that heat injury could stimulate follicles to enter an anagen phase through the signaling protein known as Sonic hedgehog, Dr. Hirsch said.

“We don’t know, but it certainly makes sense,” she added. "
Here is the article that you are talking about, and while this study asks many more questions than it answers, as most studies do,I read that the doctor doing the study TREATS the patients that she studies who have experienced this tragedy, as you have, with LASER to help them get rid of the abnormal growth triggered for unknown reasons. This leads me to believe that this study is by no means intended to discredit laser in general, and is not promoting ELECTROLOGY as the only solution. If anything it makes a strong case that PRACTITIONER SKILL is of UTMOST IMPORTANCE.

Why do you say that the point of this article is to make “a strong case that PRACTITIONER SKILL is of UTMOST IMPORTANCE”? Doesn’t it say that they’ve studied “physician treated cases and there was done nothing wrong” and the treatment still caused this terrible side effect? I see no mention of poor practitioner skill anywhere in the article as a cause of bad treatment.I only see where it refuses this theory as a possible cause of the reverse effects.

This study talks about all different types of lasers and it states that with each one they’ve noticed this side effect. Now, to me, finding a negative side effect of treatment is somewhat discrediting. This is what really this article is saying.

It is true that this article is not promoting electrology. I never said that it did. This article is about the harms of laser; it is not about the benefits of electrology, as well as, it is not about the benefits of smoke free lifestyle and the same of regular exersize. It is a narrow study and I wouldn’t expect it to concentrate on anything else besides what it is studying.

I understand that it is hard for you to change your perspective on laser hair removal, something you have invested your money, time, hopes and skin in. Believe me, I’m making no money from discrediting laser and promoting electrology. I’m just trying to help out ppl so that they could learn from others’ mistakes and get the best for themselves.

True, it has not been proven that laser causes more hair growth in 100% of the cases. But someone who’s starting out must be aware of the expensive risks VS. the benefits which are below expectations.

First of all I’ve invested just as much money in electrology as I have in laser and am somewhat satisfied and somewhat dissapointed with both. You on the other hand have been severely wronged by a laser treatment, and while that entitles you to be very, very, angry it prevents you from discussing the realities of the dangers, because it happened to you. This is why you could never serve on any kind of a jury dealing with laser hair removal (ME TOO FOR THAT MATTER) You are biased. BUT you entered a “string” of ladies discussing their current laser hair removal and did not say simply that “you should be aware of this as a possible side effect”. Rather you stated it as possibly being a “common” side effect. This is called Fear Mongering, and to parallel your use of Hitler to illustrate your point on another string, I would like to point out that today we have certain powerful people labeling things as “evil” in order to manipulate people into thinking like they do. I am sorry about what happened to you, and agree that people should be made aware of this “possible” side effect (SAME FOR ELECTROLOGY), but causing fear by taking studies out of context is something I feel bound to react to. This is a tool that the Media uses way, way too often, and I am very sensitive to it.

I think I have some laser triggered growth on my shoulders…

How do I treat that? With laser, but higher joules? Do I stay away from it?

how many laser treatments did you have on the shoulders?

I heard people report that they noticed new growth in new places just after one or two laser treatments. Today I had a new client come in for consultation. She is Italian and has black hair and light skin. She has been going for laser for 3 years now, and she told me that she got more hair in new places since she started treatment. It just sounded too familiar to me. Her main concern was her chin (the subject of regular laser treatment) and it is hard to say that she had any reduction at all. She still shaves her face every morning and puts extra makeup in the afternoon to cover up the shadow. I didn’t really spend much time counting the number of hairs per square inch, but to roughly estimate it is about 150 per square inch on and under the chin.

[ April 16, 2004, 11:58 AM: Message edited by: yb ]

I wonder how someone could have 3 years of treatments with no results, and not look into another Laser tech or other forms of treatment, and then I read this on another Forum. I guess people that do Laser hear this as often as Electrologists hear horror stories about Laser…
"I felt most of the electroylsis treatments and I could feel the electologist tweezing the hairs.

Sometimes it felt like the hair was broken when she was tweezing them (a snapping sound) leaving some hair under the skin. Perhaps that was the reason I was having so many ingrown hairs on the treated areas. I am still seeing several ingrowns now from the electroylsis.

However, on a brighter note, the lased hairs (LHR) on the previously electrolysised areas are now HAIR FREE!!! This is two and a half weeks later, one shaving on 04/08/04 and my underarms and stomach are as smooth as a baby’s bottom.

I NEVER had this result after eight months of weekly treatments and spending over $5,000.00 worth of electroylsis!!! Laser works best for me and I certainly don’t miss the electroylsis or the incompetent electrologist!"

[ April 15, 2004, 09:15 PM: Message edited by: redhead ]

If you get smooth skin almost instantly with laser you already like the results. Then, when it grows back, you come for the next treatment, and you are assured by the laser tech that after a few more treatments nothing will grow back. They tell you that such regrowth is normal and you have to keep on coming. When you see smooth skin again after the second treatment, even though the hair grows back later, you become addicted to treatment because you like so much the smooth feeling that the laser has given you. You so much want to believe that the laser will put an end to the hair problem in the forseeable future, that you’re afraid to challenge what is being done to you. After all, you already see in the mirror what you want to see, even though it doesn’t last. These were my feelings that kept me coming back for the next laser treatment. I suspect that the above-mentioned ex-laser client felt something similar.

The above electrolysis story also sounds very familiar to me, as I’ve had plenty of similar electrolysis experiences. In fact, these experiences are what has led me to become an electrologist myself. It is extremely gratifying to see a happy shiny countenance of a client giving you a look that translates “Where were you before?!”

[ April 16, 2004, 12:28 PM: Message edited by: yb ]

Denial aint just a river in Egypt.

I don’t quite get what you mean by the denial. But I actually asked someone why they kept up the laser appointment despite the regrowth. She said that the technitian (a licensed MD) told her that after the first treatment 90% will grow back, after 2nd treatment 80% will grow back, and so on. And she has to keep on coming untill nothing grows back. It was hard to tell right away how much is growing back (10% is a slight variation, and she didn’t wait for everything to come back (it can take months) before the next treatment). So she kept on going for about a year.

The area initially treated was sideburns. The hair has slowly spread down to the jaw line and to the neck, and to the front untill it met upper lip hair.

I was mainly talking about the denial of the lady that had a bad Electrolysis experience, but while we’re at it you originally said that lady your seeing had been doing Laser for THREE YEARS and had more hair than ever. Regardless of what line the Laser tech was feeding her…denial. I would think that with all the trouble shooting you do on this Forum about Electrolysis being performed improperly, and all the questions you ask people about details of their treatments to find out what went wrong, that you would entertain the possibility that your client was with the wrong Laser tech, with the wrong Laser, and that it might not just be Laser in general. Just like Electrolgy, there is a range of practitioners from artists to butchers. The Lady who is doing the studies of the phenomenom of “laser causing hairgrowth” is treating the unfortunates at her LASER clinic with Laser to rid them of the hair that was caused by Laser in the hands of another… Imagine, if you will, that there are quite a number of Laser practitioners out there like her that are real experts (many of them are also Electrologists), and your client found the equivilent of bad Electrology. I don’t know if she had this adverse reaction to Laser or if she just grew hair on her face for other reasons like so many other women with hair problems, but do you really think that if she was a client of the Lady doing the studies in Boston that she would have had the same 3 year experience? I don’t.