Laser counterproductive!..

I can definitely relate to that women who had more hair grow where it was lasered. Now call me naive or dumb…but I had 17 treatments on my sideburn/cheek. It’s true…when you are hair free for 1-2mos you get addicted to it. Whether it is denial or whatever, I always had hope that laser would eventually kill the hairs. Instead it caused more hair to grow where I never had hair in the first place!!! Talk about depressing. Instead of going for improvement, I worsened. In addition to that I had lasered my arms (5 tx) and legs (5tx). All the hairs on my arms grew back…waste of money. My legs however have responded better than the other areas. But time will only tell if laser did improve my legs or not. I spent a lot of $$$$, and I really believed in laser, until now I think I need a reality check. I have also done electrolysis on my face, and those areas are hair-free. I just don’t know what to do anymore!!!

Hi fed up, sorry to hear about your waste of money. I f Electrology has worked for you, why do you say " you don’t know what to do?" A few more questions? How old are you? When did you start Laser treatments? What is your hair and skin color? What machine was being used on you? Who was doing the treatments?, And how often where the treatments being done? Have you had your hormone levels checked? And finally, did you ever discuss with the person doing the treatment, after say the 10th treatment why you were still seeing total regrowth?

Hi Redhead,
I believe it has been 3 years ago when I started Laser. Before that I was going to an electrologist. The reason I didn’t go back is because it was too tedious & it left little holes in my skin (upper cheek). I am assuming the needle left these scars. I am also assuming that the areas where now I don’t have as much hair is due to both electrosis & laser. I don’t really know which one did the work…perhaps the combination of both. But now my concern is that in other areas of my face, I have grown more hair. I have already seen the doctor twice…and a endocrinologist because I thought it might be ME with the problem. However, everything turned out normal. They checked my thryroid, cholesterol…etc. I did tell the laser place why I was having regrowth & some. They told me that everyone reacts different to laser, and the face on women is the most difficult to rid of hair. I asked them why I was growing hair in other places where I never had hair, and they told me that if the laser touched that area, it might have stimulated hair growth. I was like great!!! Why didn’t they tell me this possibility in the beginning!! They have given me 3 freebies since, but they said they could no longer give me free laser treatements. I am sometimes too nice to tell that they should of told me this in the beginning before I spent so much $$$$. I guess i lack assertiveness. To answer your questions about myself. I am 24 years old going on 25. I am olive skinned, and dark almost black hair. I live in Orange County and I would drive all the way to LA so I couldn’t go every month 1/2 all the time. Sometimes I would go back after 2-3 mos. I really gave them the benefit of the doubt, and so I kept going hoping Laser would eventually work. I did my arms, and all the hair grew back. My legs have responded best…but maybe the hair will grow back eventually…I don’t know, too soon to tell. They used Gentlelase plus on me. On my face they had even go as high as 18 joules, but decreased the intesity because I got some hyperpigmentation. Now I am looking into this place in Westminster (closer to my home) THis will save me gas$$ where they use DIODE lightsheer…but I am researching first before I get myself in debt again!! I am thinking of doing elecrolysis again, but I don’t like the fact that is can scar my face with holes.

A good electrologist won’t scar you.

It should also be said that there is a difference between the follicle being empty, and a scar, or pitting, but lord knows I have seen the results of bad treatment.
We have had some feedback from clients here on the board giving information on California Electrologists, one may even be near you.

If you are lucky enough to find a good electrologist, you will get fast clearance, without scarring, pitting, or lasting pigmentation.

Unfortunately from what I have read and heard, the phenomenon you might have experienced most often occurs when low power is used to compensate for dark skin on womens faces. However it is more than likely it occured as they said, when the laser touched areas that weren’t being targeted and started a new dormant growth cycle in that area that now will have to be addressed (just what you needed!) You don’t see any growth on places that weren’t touched by Laser do you? Like on your chest?
You could maybe try getting a patch test with the Aurora, which is what I’m using on my face, and there is no trauma like Laser or Electrolysis, but it is very new technology and there might be unknown risks and long term data is not available yet. But for me and a few others that have posted on this Forum, there have been no side effects, and lots of hair removal. The diode is a pretty harsh Laser, but if you find a real good practitioner you might get great results. Or you might get more of the same. Electrology is pretty brutal, as you have experienced, and I can only say what the Electrologists on this Forum will tell you. Do your homework and find the best person in your area. Unfortunately even if you find the best it will still probably be a long and winding road, but the is hope! Just be prepared to assert yourself and ask a lot of questions, and don’t jump into anything without running it by some of the experts on this Forum. Remember that doing patch tests with Laser, Electrolysis, and even the Aurora is a great way to avoid many of the problems you have already experienced. The Electrologist I just started seeing in LA also uses the Diode in her practice. If you want to try her I can give you her contact information.

redhead,

Aurora?? What type of laser is it…alexandrite, Nd:yag, ruby, flashlamp?
How may tx did you have on your face? What color skin, hair. How often would you get it treated (length of time between treatments? I only noticed more hair growth where the laser did touch. Were you really hairy?? How many treatments did it take? How long since you been hair free?

I suggest you do a search on this section of the FOrum under the word “aurora” and look for my posts about my treatmant. You can also go to Syneron.com to find out info on the Aurora. It actually is not a Laser , but similar in the way it is used. If you have questions after you do a bit of research, I will be more than happy to answer them.

The client I was referring to has no hormonal disorders. This is one of the first things I address when I see a hair issue of such magnitude (which is quite often). But the point is that she grew hair where hair wasn’t before. It is not difficult to deduce that the laser would stimulate the growth in the adjacent to treatment areas. If the face is treated then one may get this growth further on the face on on the neck, not on the chest and even not on the toes. I think it would be beneficial, for every one following this thread, to reread the study quoted close to the top. It would eleiminate many of your gueses (like low fluences and skin type).

FED UP is probably just another victim of this laser side effect. As I have mentioned in the first post, most professionals in the field are not aware, in denial, or ignorant of this scenerio. That was the purpose of this thread - to warn the public. Watch out. It’s out there!

This is a quote from the study you are talking about yb, “Most of the cases occur in treated women with olive or darker complexions, from Fitzpatrick skin type III to V. But even that is just a tendency, not a rule, Dr. Hirsch said in the interview. She knows of the case of a blonde, blue-eyed woman—“a true Fitzpatrick type II”—who suddenly grew a patch of chest hair following a treatment for hairs on the neck.”
This is what I said to FED UP, “Unfortunately from what I have read and heard, the phenomenon you might have experienced most often occurs when low power is used to compensate for dark skin on womens faces. However it is more than likely it occured as they said ( her doctor), when the laser touched areas that weren’t being targeted and started a new dormant growth cycle in that area that now will have to be addressed (just what you needed!) You don’t see any growth on places that weren’t touched by Laser do you? Like on your chest?”
What did I say that is wrong??!! Fed Up didn’t even really describe what she meant by more “hair growth”. You would have to ask her a ot more questions to determine if this is the kind of phenomenom that Dr. Hirsh is studying. I’m sure we will hear about plenty of clients you will see in the future that have experienced this horrible phenomenom, and I give it the same kind of weight as Laser techs on other Forums that say that %80 permanent reduction is typical when they do Laser. All the Electrology you perform will be perfect, and people will sleep through treatments. Laser techs will never expeience a single case of triggered hair growth in years of practice and thousands of treatments. Everyone seems to have a practice that totally supports all of their opinions I’ve noticed, which is why I think consumer reports are more important than anicdotes by practitioners. Stories doled out by practitioners on these Forums are no more scientific than consumer reports, in fact it is the stories being told be practitioners that very often accounts for the “phenomenom” of overpromised results, and underdescribed risks.

[ April 21, 2004, 11:41 AM: Message edited by: redhead ]

You like circular arguments all that much? You cannot concentrate on a topic, but rather revert to offending others when you have nothing more to say? Why do you keep on bringing up your electrolysis vs. laser old argument? This string is about a certain danger of LHR. You cannot just take facts? Facts bother you all that much that you constantly go off topic to fabticate yet another accusation against anyone speaking of the shortcomings of lasers? If you cannot see this trend in your posts, a little more introspection won’t do you harm.

I find myself being pulled back into this argument with you over and over again. I feel that this is a great waste of time, since there is no good that will come out of it. You are not a wondering or questioning consumer, in that case it could have been worth it, but you rather make arguments for the purpose of arguments. I’ve ignored you a number of times, but I just sometimes don’t stand to the challange of being unjustly and rediculously accused and keep quite.

What did you make up this time? “Stories” that an electrology client may often sleep through the treatment? You don’t believe it? This forum is not made of liers. If you are so suspicious, you might want to re-check your own self-consciousness. Anyway, just ask any electrologist who uses a newer generation machine from Sil-Tone or Apilus. (I take it for granted that they should have their hands growing out of the right place and have a little understanding of what they do).

But sleeping is not what is promised by electrolysis. (Again this old old discussion with you. It’s the same thing again and again.) I’m going off topic here since you did. Electrolysis promises permanent hair removal of any hair anywhere on the body. This is a proven fact. Can you distinguish between a proven fact and a sales claim? Lasers cannot base their claim of 80% reduction on any proven fact. In fact, this contradicts the studies about lasers, so this must be a lie. Possible hair growth triggered by lasers is also a fact. I didn’t make it up. You know this, and you personally see people here attesting to that from their own experience. Their stories are not a proven fact, but the study conducted about this does have such power.

I don’t agree with you that consumer reports have the ultimate importance. Consumers don’t always know what they see. When I had the problem of laser triggered hair growth (long time ago), I blamed it on genes, hormones etc. But when this fact becomes so common that it gets the attention of the medical community, and scientific studies are conducted and prove that this is true, then this is what has the ultimate importance. Now talk about “overpromised results”. Do you finally understand the difference between sales “promises” and unbiased scientific data? Make your choice which one you want to follow. Compaire what is scientifically promised by laser and by electrolysis (you can find that info on hairfacts, on FDA site and other places), and see which results you want to have. This is what you are likely to get.

I never said consumer reports have ultimate importance, I said they carry just as much weight as stories told by indavidual practitioners of both Laser and Electrolysis about their accoplishments, and what they observe. I say “stories” meaning observations and anecdotes, and you accuse me of meaning “stories” as lies. For that matter, just about everything I have heard you complain about or accuse others of, you are in some way guilty of that yourself. You say that your observations are important, but you imply that observations of people in the Laser hair removal business are all made up. A perfect example is your website which lists, as a fact, that Laser is considered to be a “TEMPORARY” method of hair removal. I also saw on your website that you have started your own Forum where you can make sure that your opinion is the dominant voice and Laser can be considered a temporary removal method like waxing, and I have no desire to interfere. But on this Forum I will not be silent unless I am banned.

</font><blockquote><font size=“1” face=“Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif”>quote:</font><hr /><font size=“2” face=“Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif”>Originally posted by redhead:
<strong>I never said consumer reports have ultimate importance, </strong>

You did say that they have precedence.

<strong>I say “stories” meaning observations and anecdotes, and you accuse me of meaning “stories” as lies.</strong>

Don’t deny what you said. It is clear if you read your previous post.

<strong>For that matter, just about everything I have heard you complain about or accuse others of, you are in some way guilty of that yourself.</strong>

You are on a mind trip again. Where did I complain or accuse others?

<strong>You say that your observations are important, but you imply that observations of people in the Laser hair removal business are all made up.</strong>

I gave most importance to clinical data and not to anyone’s observations. If yolu stop looking for ways to falsely accuse others, but try to understand what is said instead, you won’t come to these conclusions.

<strong>A perfect example is your website </strong>

Example of what?

<strong>which lists, as a fact, that Laser is considered to be a “TEMPORARY” method of hair removal.</strong>

This is the standpoint of AEA. The reason why is a separate discussion, which with you is doomed to be fruitless anyway.

<strong>I also saw on your website that you have started your own Forum where you can make sure that your opinion is the dominant voice</strong>

Has this happened? Or is it just another by-the-way attack, one of countless other baseless accusations?

<strong>and Laser can be considered a temporary removal method like waxing, and I have no desire to interfere.</strong>

You are always welcome to challenge my standpoints, as long as it is done in a constructive, respectful manner, and if you are interested in a logical discussion – not just fingerpointing, accusations and fights with imaginary enemies.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size=“2” face=“Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif”>Let’s stop now.