for: hairfetish and RJC2001, and any others

Hair Removal Methods Laser hair removal
#1

Iam relatively new to this forum and i have posted only one message prevously. I have been reading alot of questions from this site and I can see that hairfetish and RJC2001 are very very educated and extremely helpful with other peoples questions.
Iam asking for your help in finding the best procedure and laser for me.
Iam a 23 yr old guy, light skin with a very very slight tint. Dark corse hair. Im looking to have the hair on my face thinned on the cheeks or completely eliminated, not sure yet. Also im looking for my chest, stomach, back, shoulders, neck, and jawline to be coompletely eliminated as much as possible. the hair on my arms id love to have thinned but that is not my top concern right now.
I have heard alot about lasers on this site and I have been in many different offices in the chicago area for consultations. I dont know much about lasers and which ones are the ones with the best success rate for candidates such as myself. All in all, i just need alot of help and everytime i go in to see someeoine i feel like they are giving me a sales pitch. Please help me in any way you can. I hope I dont sound to annoying sending all these questions but i have had such a hard time trying to find out how to finally make that first step and get my very first treatment. I have way to much loose space in my wallet to make a mistake so im trying desperately to find whats right for me.

thank you for any of the help you may be able to provide for me.
and id just like to say that all the advice and other help you have given to other conserned people in this forum has been very helpful to me as well. So cheers and I hope to hear back from you soon.

#2

Mark, I have had about 17 or 18 laser treatments on my back, neck (front and back), chest, abs, and shoulders. This was after everyone who is an advocate of laser told me 6-8 treatments and then maintenance sessions. I am obviously well beyond that. Here’s what I have to say about laser.

I’m happy I went through with it but I’m also unhappy and unsatisfied with the results. I continue to get the treatments and will continue to do so until a more effective treatment presents itself. It really is the only way for a person in my situation to be hairfree for extended periods of time. The hair has gotten thinner in areas and I can only imagine how bad it would be if I never started getting the treatments in the first place. I started getting the laser treatments while I was in college and it made my life alot better. i used to hold my head back and try and cover up the back of my neck by sitting in the back of the room, etc. etc. The hair got thinner and more manageable. I have about 4 weeks of being hair free after a treatment minus the week after the treatment when I have the bumps (kinda looks like a rash) and burnt hair stubble. After about 4 weeks the hair starts to lightly grow back. It’s very manageable at this time. I can shave it very easily and it even grows back pretty slowly. After 6 or 7 weeks I go in for another treatment. The one good thing about my laser treatments is that this past summer I got a treatment at the end of June and I managed to stay pretty much hair free until September. I was able to get a nice tan and not have to worry about the hair. It’s grwoing back strong now and i have wait until the tan completely fades before I get another treatment but I definitely think the treatments have been worth it for me.

Unfortunately, there is the time in between treatments and the time right after that is the pain. I wouldn’t walk around shirtless during either time. I either have the hair or a strange looking rash. I consider laser treatments to be like waxing only last a little longer. One good aspect of laser is that you can keep the hair real short and don’t have to let it grow before waxing. It seems like you need to let the hair grow at least a week in order for it to be able to grab the hair.

One unfortunate part about laser is that I have heard it doesn’t work that well on people that are our age (early twenties) because of raging hormones, etc. It seems like the treatments are alot more effective on men in their mid 30’s and up.

If you have any questions let me know.

#3

Kyle 2
thanks for all the helpful info. I do have a question for you. what type of laser did you use and if its ok to ask… how much is all of the treatments you have recieved costed you? my hair is coarse in some areas but in others it is not as bad, I think im a good candidate for this because of my skin color and dark hair. Anyways tell me what you think.

#4

Mark, the laser they have used on me is called a GenleLase Plus. The machine is made by a company named Candela. It’s an alexandrite laser with cooling spray which is ideal for light skin and dark hair. It’s one of the better, more advanced lasers on the market. I have light skin and dark hair too. The hair used to be really coarse. It might have been more coarse than my beard hair. The hair is alot finer now. I have some bald spots and it has also thinned out.

I paid by pulse or each “zap” and the first treatment I paid $0.75 a pulse and it ended up taking about 1,500 pulses. The second treatment I paid $0.50 a pulse. The third I paid $.025 a pulse. Now I pay a flat fee of $300 a treatment for the same areas (chest, abs, shoulders, neck front, neck back, back). I’ve probably spent a little over $3,000.00 in all on about 18 laser treatments. That is over a 3-4 year time period. I like the laser I have used but I have recenly had thoughts about trying another laser such as the Syneron because i have heard that switching lasers is sometimes a good thing and I have read that it works better on the finer hairs which mine have become due to my other laser treatments. I can think of a few reasons why this might be the case including your hair follicles might get used to a certain laser and not be effected as much by it.

I did have a few treatments with a Coolglide Elite which is a ND Yag laser. ND Yag lasers are supposed to be better for darker skin types. I decided to try this laser becuase I was disappointed with the GentleLase not being able to treat tanned skin and this is obviously a burden in the summer. I did not have good results with this laser. i don’t know why. I know some people do have good results with it.

If you have any other questions let me know.

#5

I had my stomach treated with a diode laser and electrolysis and as many people experience I still have hair there but it is quite a bit lighter and finer. I had a patch test done on my stomach with the Syneron Aurora over 4 months ago and as of today there is about a 40% REMOVAL of hair and some finer regrowth. For the first time I’m seeing actual bald skin, so maybe it does really work on previously treated areas. RJC2001 has been saying this all along, so I’m still very optimistic about this new machine. GET A PATCH TEST!

#6

Kyle2, I think you would be better off getting treated with a diode laser like the Lightsheer or the Aurora IPL/RF system. They do work better on finer hair and work better after multiple treatments.

My practitioner said that she had used the Gentlelase and she didn’t think it even worked as well as the Apogee which is also an alexandrite.

I asked about getting treated with an Nd:YAG laser during the summer and my practitioner was not real big on that idea, and they do have that laser also. I am very tan in the summer and they don’t recommend laser for me in the summer. It takes about 3 months out of the sun for my tan to fade enough for laser.

If you have light skin and dark hair the Aurora or Lightsheer will work very well. The Aurora is better than the Lightsheer on darker skin in my experience.

RJC2001

#7

RJC2001,

Thanks for your advice. I’m going in for a gentleLase treatment in a couple weeks but after that I’m going to start looking for a place that has the Aurora cause I’m getting sick of all the treatments I’ve had with limited results. I have a couple questions cause the practioner that I use blames my lack of acceptable results on my age. I’m 23 and they say that it’s working against me which I can understand to some extent. How old are you? How many treatments have you had which the apogee/aurora/lightsheer? I was on another forum for a couple years until they pissed me off so much cause of the bias. The LHR people are insane and claim that there lasers are the be all, end all to excess hair. Whenever someone like me says that it doesn’t work for some people they shoot me down and say it’s cause I have some underlying medical problem or my diet is bad. This is not true. I am in great shape and my diet isn’t horrible. THey also don’t like people talking about the Aurora or any kind of research being done for a permanent hair inhibitor. They say the aurora isn’t cleared by the FDA for permanent hair reduction like theirs are. They claim that the company skirts around with the wording to make it sound permanent. They also bash it by saying there have been many burn and scar victims from the Aurora. I don’t think I buy it. Do you know anything about the FDA approval and why they haven’t gotten clearance for perm. hair reduction? Anyways, I just wanted to ask you these few questions. Thanks for your response. If it’s possible I’d like to email you and ask you a few other questions if possible. I have some news regarding research but I don’t know if I want to blab it here right now too. Thanks. Sorry for my rambling post.

#8

What you are experiencing is frustrating, I know. It’s the same way with partisan politics. How can two seemingly rational people disagree about fundimental issues up and down simply along party lines. people that own lasers have invested a lot of money in lasers and want to, have to, believe they have made the right choice. They have already treated hundreds or thousnds of people and have taken their money, watched them wriggle in pain, and assured them that this was the best solution. They as doctors BELIEVE this to be the best solution, and are not con men. They have invested their time, money, and “expertise” in making what final and authoritative decision on what laser is the best. Psychologically, and egotistically, they are then bound to that decision, often subconciously closing their minds to other options and developments. doctors are human beings too, and despite their good intentions, they often fall prey to the exact same faulty thinking as polititians, religious zelots, etc. Electrolysist are often the worst offenders, as they have almost made a lifestlyle decision in their practice of electrology. For them to question their methods and tradition would mean questioning the very meaning of their work. I’m not saying all are like this, but definitely some. And we as the consumer, can be guilty of trusting too much, and wanting to believe in these people too much, because we are guilty of being desperate. The only people I listen to now are people that have experience as a consumer, and even then I have to read between the lines. Have they had a good or bad practitioner, have they given things a full and proper chance, do they have similar color hair and skin?

#9

I’m 45. I have had about 8-10 treatments per body part. I haven’t kept and exact count but i remember my practitioner mentioning it was my 8th treatment.

I’m not sure how much of a role age plays in effectiveness. My practitioner mentioned that she was working on a high school swimmer and he was getting great results. This question is best answered by a dermatologist. But to say that your results were not as expected because of your age I think is an oversimplification.

The assertion that the Aurora is more likely to cause burns and scars is pure BS! The Aurora is LEAST likely to cause it. I’ve had my arms done with very little scabbing and they have the darkest skin on my body. I have had less post treatment redness and scabbing with the Aurora. Next best would be Lightsheer and worst would be the Apogee.

Your less than satisfactory resultsare probably due to one or both of these factors: Lack of practitioner skill, mainly you were treated at too low of a fluence and the Gentlelase just does not work very well for you.

You are not the first one to have disappointing results with the Gentlelase.

The Apogee gave good results for me on the first 3 treatments, after that it was diminishing returns. The Lightsheer did better on the finer hairs. Then the Aurora did even better on the finer hairs and on lighter hairs too.

What fluence are you being treated at with the Gentlelase?

RJC2001

#10

RJC2001,

Actually, the fluence thing brings up a good point. They have never went too high on the fluence cause they never really believed in it. They alway maintained from some of the conferences they’ve been to that a low fluence and bigger spot size works best. They usually keep the spot size at 18mm and the fluence at 20 or 18j/cm squared. This is the highest fluence for this spot size. I never questioned this because I always had complete shedding and also always had the good Follicular Edema which they talk so much about. I did move to the 15 mm spot size/30 joules for one or two treatments and didn’t get as good of a shedding. I have between type 2 and 3 skin.

It takes so long for my tan to fade also. People don’t realize how long a deep tan can take to fade. I had one treatment a little too early one time and got some hypopigmentation but it faded in a few months.

I don’t question my practitioner’s skill because they’ve been in the business so long. They’re well respected in their field and attend all of the conferences. She also has been an electrologist for a really long time so she knows the hair cycle pretty well.

It’s also funny that you mention that the GentleLase isn’t that great of a laser. Many people have said it is on of the best. I guess the opinion varies on lasers. I think I will try getting the fluence turned up.

#11

When they changed spot size and fluence did they change pulse width too. It is claimed that a larger spot size penetrates deeper into the skin. Spot size does appear to have an effect from your results. It is interesting to read that you had more follicular edema from the lower fluence and larger spot size.

Maybe you have gotten all the results you are going to get from the alexandrite laser. You do sound like a candidate for the Aurora and maybe the Lightsheer too.

RJC2001

#12

How does one look after 5 years of laser treatment? According to Mitchell Goldman, M.D., Medical Director of La Jolla Spa, in La Jolla CA., says “Typically, 90 percent of your hair will go away 3 to 4 years and the treatment has to be repeated all over again.”

This statement agrees with Dr. Ranella Hirsch, of Wellman Labortories of Photomedicine at Massachusetts General Hospital, Boston, test have shown that many patients find that their problem has Gotten Worse over this time period. More hair actually grew due to follicle stimulation!

This is why many of these device are now being manufactured to grow hair!

Go to the site: ElectrolysisInformation.com for further information…

#13

Classic. Someone who has devoted their entire life to electrology, claiming that in 5 years time people who are dumb enough to use laser will suddenly have more hair than they ever had before. UNPROFESSIONAL.

#14

I dont see any reason why hair would grow back after 5 years.That just doesnt make sense at all.I think a time reference of up to a year is reasonable and even that seems a bit long.

#15

I think that a year is definitely a good place to call permanent, and I would literally bet the farm that I’m not gonna see sudden growth of new hair after that, unless I have some kind of hormone problem or medical malfunction

#16

While laser hair removal doesn’t work for everyone, Fino is way overstating that number. Just becuase one or two doctors said so doesn’t make it true. And we have to ask about the backgrounds of the doctors that made those statements. Maybe they got paid by the electrolysis industry to conduct a “study.” Pure speculation on my part, but you never know.

I would always be suspicious of blanket statements like, “laser doesn’t work for anyone,” or “all the hair will grow back,” or you “will have to start over again in 3-4 years.” Well, exactly how many people have had to do that?

And if laser causes more hair to grow, guys with MPB should be flocking to their dermatologists to have their heads lasered!

After the first laser treatment on my chest, 50% of the hair was gone. And it did NOT come back! That first treatment was 4 years ago! I have about 5% of my original chest hair remaining. I still get treatments because I want it all gone. I only get a couple of treatments each year. My tan gets very dark in the summer and I cannot use any light based treatment. The hair that is left is there because I am not hitting the grwoth cycle at the right time.

From my experience, any hair that does not regrow in 2 months is not coming back. Period.

RJC2001

#17

RJC2001,

You are really interesting me with this talk of the aurora and other ipl/radio freq. machines. I am still skeptical about it because of my age though.

Can you tell me how to find people that use the aurora in my particular area please. They don’t have any kind of finder on their website that I could find.

I also would like to know how much you pay for your treatments. I pay $300 for the chest, back, abs, neck, shoulders, and throat area with the gentleLase. I know this is a really good deal and that is kinda why I don’t want to switch. I also know that my treatments take 1 hour and $300 an hour is insanely high. I think knowing what I pay and how long a treatment generally takes is good leverage and I can use it to my advantage if I get treatment with someone else. I’d really like to nip this hair problem in the butt between now and next summer so I think I’m going to start looking into it. I might even alternate or get treatments done on my forearms with the gentleLase to thin the hair out which is all I want in that area.

One thing I have found is that my hair grows back quicker than the normal 8 weeks that they recommend and I might try to space my treatments in 4 or 5 week intervals to try to really get it in the anagen stage which is best. Let me know what you think.

#18

I would try 4-5 week intervals, it may work better for you. There are hard and fast rules about growth cycles. They are going to vary from person to person.

I pay about $100 per hour long treatment. On one of my last treatments I had my arms,chest and part of my abs done. I figured I was getting a pretty good deal. I don’t have much chest and ab hair left so maybe that keeps the price down.

I would definitely recommend getting your arms done. You will like the look and feel of it. At least get all the hair removed from your upper arms. If you just want to thin the hair on your forearms that will work out OK just get fewer treatments on them. Once you get your forearms done you may like the results so much that you will want it all removed.

I lift weights and it is amazing how much more muscular my arms and chest look with the hair removed.

There should be a phone number on the Syneron site that you can call and ask for a nearby practitioner. You may have to call the practitioners in your area to see who is using the Aurora.

RJC2001

#19

RJC

I would love to get my arms lasered but im a bit hesitant.

A couple questions

What laser did you use for your arms ?

Did you notice a unnaturally patchy look after the few initial treaments or did it look evenly thinner?

How many arm treatments overall ?

Thanks man.

[ October 04, 2003, 05:32 PM: Message edited by: Anthonyy ]

#20

I used the Aurora on my arms. It did not leave a patchy look at all. A few red dots here and there was the only sign of treatment. I was able to wear a short sleeve T-shirt the next day and nobody noticed.

I had two treatments with about 30 percent reduction so I will need more this winter. Since it works so well on dark skin I may be able to start treatment earlier but my arms are still very dark. I have had my upper arms previously treated with the Lightsheer so there is not as much hair on my upper arms. The Lightsheer does leave more redness and some scabs but the redness only lasts for a day or two.

RJC2001