What on Earth are you babbling about lol. I thought I was seeing the glass half empty, but your post makes it seem like there is no water at all.
A few posts ago you said you wanted to find answers too, yet now ‘‘truth-seekers’’ (what does that even mean anyway) are your kryptonite… What’s wrong in finding answers in the sea of contradictions that is HairTell (or this entire profession apparently)?
Stabbing…Stabbing…Stabbing…pluckng…plucking…plucking…ehhehe
Relax, no drama, less emotion and talk to me.
You do realise that Josefa has already give you the answer? In this thread?
Pretty sure you and I are on the same page. And yes she’s given me several answers in this thread (and others) yet some are still contradicting with other electrologists. Of course now someone is gonna take this as an accusation that she’s lying to everyone and the ‘‘drama’’ will pursue. Actually, I’m pretty sure I wasn’t the one creating the drama here, if anything I was very careful not to! But I guess now I’m part of the issue by prolongating it.
Sadly I don’t think this whole thread is about the initial subject anymore. I’m just waiting for people to stop responding and I will too… Simple really.
Yes we have gone off topic, digressed a little but there’s still useful information within the posts. If you promise to remain objective, ask straight forward questions and take your opinion/bias/emotion out of the equation to better understand results we can proceed, I’ll try my best to help? Agreed? Now, from what I understand you would like to know how results can vary so greatly from electrologist to electrologist? Correct?
Speaking of objectivity, wasn’t it Michael who exploded on me because I simply pointed out a flaw in one of our statements (it happened to be his)? Wasn’t it I who actually counted the hairs on your picture and tried to math everything objectively to have a clearer understanding? Wasn’t it I who tried to find an accommodating answer that everyone could agree on regarding your treatments (since there were conflicting statements)?
Let’s get the facts straight first before insinuating that I’m the one being emotional and subjective here, thank you.
That being said, I tried to find the answer to that million dollar question for months now, and honestly I don’t think anyone will ever find it. It boils down to too many variables and ideas, and frankly it’s getting too exhausting to figure out. There’s also the ‘‘art-form’’ aspect and ‘‘luck’’ too (all biological aspects aligned perfectly for electrolysis at the specific moment of the treatment).
I’ve asked a few posts ago if Josefa’s 2 clearances on a male beard (from another post) that removed the majority of hairs was a rare occurrence and apparently it’s not. I’ve seen posts about her results that are supposedly in the same effectiveness or treatment time as some of her peers, yet I’ve never seen anyone else post or even talk about these kinds of outcomes.
Can we all agree that 2 clearances on an untreated male beard is years ahead of any ‘‘3 clearances on the body’’… Or this recent example of your feet, has anyone ever done this in one single clearance? Granted she said herself that she was surprised, but just the fact that it happened shows that it’s indeed a possible outcome! Yet no one seems to have ever seen anything like it (unless they’re saying silent). How does she seems to be a step ahead of everyone? I know I might seem obsessed with her at this point, but I’m just taking her as the main example to push this further. Actually every time I tried to push, I got nothing but the ‘‘truth-seeking’’ monologue, which is fine but NARMA seems to want to reignite the fire lol.
A very low kill rate and numerous clearances seems to be the apparent norm (to me and many others), unless the silent majority is getting much more effective treatments. I’ve only learned about those 3 (or less) clearances on HairTell!
Again, this has nothing to do with ‘‘believing’’, so there’s really no need for further accusations.
zapmyface, you are mixing up apples and oranges in so far as terminology. A clearance can be all at once ( as in josepha’s case) or over a period of time . Very few people work as Josepha does, and most that do, arent up to her caliber in skill. I’ve been straitforward with you from the start on this.
A “clearance” occurs when all of the hair in a given area, is removed at least once. It says nothing as to how many times the area was treated. Capiche? If you contigusly remove all of the hair in one growth cycle ( say 4 -5 months) and then do it again for the next 4-5 months, then that is 2 full CLEARANCES.
Can an everyday electrologist do the same thing in 10 months by contiguously treating the hair? Absolutely, and we do every day.
Josepha works the way she does because people fly from across the planet to be treated by her.And she has found her niche market in mass clearances.
You asked how she can have such results, and I told you that too. She has the maximum hairs available for treatment. It’s a carefully designed system she has developed and it involved not touching the hair ( no shaving, nothing!) for 6 months or more.
And finally, after more than 35 years in the industry she operates with great accuracy and skill.
So, I dont understand the question. These are accomplishable goals regardless of methodology of treatment. It’s all just semantics, or as you put it, art.
Every “art” has it’s pisacco, it’s michaelangelo, and , well, Josepha is ours. She’s shared graciously of her knowledge to all, including you, who she told you directly “how she does it”. She goes after every hair as if it’s demise is the most important thing in the world. That’s it! That’s her “Big Secret”
Now,I know you are cheesed at Michael. My best advice? Ignore him. Really! Michael is getting older, has been though a lot physically with skin cancer removed at one point and now an eye surgery. But he’s also one of the most knowledgable people around. He can be a little “crotchety” and occasionally have the bedside manner of atilla the hun when it comes to overly anxious or argumentative newcomers.But he also has moments of near genius when helping people around here. Please, honestly, your best route to peace is to just let that part go you’ll not find peace with the issue.
As for the “clearance” issue of results after one, or two clearances, the matter of terminology is an easy one to overcome, you just do what I suggested before, and LEARN everything you can.
Seana: Hubschman or Couvillion?
Hubschman is the world leader in my specific retina surgery (at UCLA). He said I would have to lay flat for three days (air bubble in the eye), use eye medication for 6 - 8 weeks, not have vision in the eye for 4 - 6 weeks, wear a metal patch, have pain, have no physical activity for 6 - 8 weeks, no water in the eye (shower), no swimming and no driving in a car. (I decided against UCLA because the entire staff went out on strike.)
Dr. Couvillion (Santa Barbara) did the retina surgery. No pain, no air bubble in the eye, and vision returned in a couple days afterward. After two weeks, I discontinued the eye medication and he gave the go-ahead for swimming (I do just under 2-miles per day). I’m driving and will be back at work when I get the ambition (the hairs await! YIKES!)
So, do I conclude that Dr. Hubschman was lying … Or, do I conclude that Dr. Couvillion is a better surgeon than the published world authority on this particular surgery? If my thinking was like zapjyface, that may be what I’d say. However, I worked in surgery for 10-years (plastic) and have seen slight and major differences take place.
Indeed, I may be “grumpy” but my thinking is flexible and I understand nuance (and hyperbole too).
To Narma’s statement: one-hour to do both feet?
Jossie used local anesthetic, and it would take her, say, 15-minutes to “numb-up” one set of toes (being “patient friendly”). So, 30-minutes for the local. That would leave 30-minutes to treat both feet? Close; but no! Patient “hyperbole.”
Furthermore, “zap” is basing his complaints on what someone has written … not his own personal experience. Indeed, a second-hand story can be accurate, but it’s still second-hand; and is often basis of a belief system. I might believe in Jesus turning water into wine, but I’d have to see it, and taste it myself, before I believed any second-hand account. (Not challenging Darma’s account … just saying.)
I say this, because I’ve been chided for my 3-clearances statement (which I stand by). Like Hubschman, I base my suggestions on thousands of patients, hundreds of therapists (in 12 countries)and more than 40-years in the profession. If I’m “grumpy” about being condemned, by someone with no real-world experience, well, I have every right to be.
Big drama show!
The whole post is loaded with an emotional undertone, whilst you’re correct in regards to some aspects of your post, you are wrong not to accept an olive branch when offered one. Especially by myself.
What the others say to you is not my concern, I was merely going to answer your question once and for all, as I believe you lack the knowledge you require to understand. Seana has been doing a pretty good job of explaining yet you need specifics to understand wholly.
I myself had to ask the pertinent questions to understand it better.
Narma, the underlying feeling of “zap” is that he (probably) got rotten, terrible, shitty work; and he’s wondering “what the hell happened?” Do I understand? Oh, yes I DO!!
What do I say to a man who had 200 hours on his back, was covered with thousands of ingrown hairs and mostly no hairs permanently removed? Is there horrific “work” out there? Yep!
I would be pissed-off too. Sadly, most clients that get ripped off just “suck it up.” I’m sorry they do … but it’s the norm.
Very true that I’m basing my complaints on NARMA’s experience, but I’ve seen a few posts of hers to figure out how much more effective she seems to be. Is it only an impression? Sure, but I truly don’t think I’m too far off from reality!
Seana, I didn’t know you could treat the same hair many times in a clearance… For example, let’s take a specific area on my face, it took 4h to fully remove all visible hairs (in the spawn of 2 appointments within a week). Wouldn’t that be considered one clearance? ‘‘New’’ hairs will come out the next week, and in a month or so the area will look about the same as it did before if no treatments are done (obviously the few hairs successfully killed will not be there), right? At least that’s my experience.
Let’s say I come back to get electro done on the same area after a month (it can be 1 month of 5 or 10), it would take a little less time to fully remove all visible hairs (also in the spawn of 2 appointments within a week), let’s say 3h45, wouldn’t that be the 2nd clearance…? It seems illogical to still call this the 1st clearance to me, but if that’s really the consensus, I’ll never use that word again lol.
Pretty sure that’s how Josefa calculated her ‘‘clearances’’ too, unless I’m very mistaken!
NARMA, did you just read the first paragraph of the big post I wrote earlier or something?
What olive branch are you talking about? You could just try your take at an answer too, like everyone here has done, you know.
By the way, I don’t think I’ve had shitty work done with the 2nd electrologist that did some of my face every week over 8 months. I’ve said countless times that it worked and that I was relatively satisfied, but I always wondered if it could be more effective, and apparently it can be!
And I know I did get some answers, I’ll try to resume:
1- Trying to kill every single hair like it was the last one there. Honestly I don’t like that one, you know why? It implies that other electrologists don’t care about what they’re supposed to do (KILLING THE HAIR), and focus on clearing the area instead. Is it called electrolysis or waxing?
2- Experience. Sure years of experience can be a good thing, but in my reality it means nothing (the person that did scars on my face had 20 years of experience). My bias is pretty clear on that one but I’m convinced newcomers can as effective as established professionals in some cases.
3- Not touching the hair for months before a treatment. How does that happen on the face? And I’m sorry to take that same example over and over but, her 2 clearance post on a beard took 30 something hours (in 2 travels if I remember correctly). I don’t think that person hadn’t touched his beard for months beforehand, so it doesn’t seem to matter too much. To compare, it took more hours to complete only a small part of my face, with weekly appointments over 8 months. The difference is staggering regardless of clearances. And for the life of me I can’t find her post talking about the details, argh!
It might seem like I’m ungrateful by not taking the olive branch… But olive branches are for truth-seekers, I’M A FACT-SEEKER! New word for you Michael lol.
Those seeking facts don’t make recriminating remarks, insult people … who are trying to be helpful … by calling them liars, or demand absolute answers delivered to them on a silver platter. You know, “screaming at the universe.” Such personality behaviors are reserved to those who have only recently discovered the “Truth.”
I’ve seen decades of “Truths” … and … on rare occasional … a fact now-and-then! (“Attila” strikes back!)
Good swim today … but I got “dolphined” … don’t like that too much. Fins look like FINS! Adrenaline rush.
Do you believe that it’s the same hair?
I put it to you , that a basic understanding of cycles of growth, will answer your question.
If you remove a hair and it DOES NOT die as a result, it taked 12-16 weeks before a new haircan be generated and grow to the surface.
If you see a hair growing a week afterwards, it was already started 3-4 months ago. It is NOT the same hair you removed last week though it could be in a similar region.It is rightfully a part of the FIRST cycle of hair growth and no DOES NOT count as a “second clearance”
The timing of clearances, is as I mentioned previously,is of critical importance when doing full clearances. Not all of your hair follicles show at any given point in time only a small percentage are showing.The only way it can be the same hair, is if it was broken in the follicle during treatment … Which is where Josephas strategy to kill every hair shines, because, this literally, does NOT HAPPEN!
Mike Loves Seana!
Oh here we go again, for the 3rd time Michael, I NEVER INSULTED YOU OR ANYONE and NEVER CALLED YOU A LIAR. All of this could’ve been avoided if you had simply said ‘‘my mistake’’ instead of going on and on… and on… about how much you hate ‘‘truth-seekers’’. Sometimes you’re all about finding answers too, and sometimes you do a complete 180 and belittle anyone who seeks them.
‘‘Deliver answers on a silver platter’’ Oh please, I’ve said countless times that I don’t even mind if you or anyone else don’t answer me because you’ve already done it many times already. And that’s what you’ve decided to share, that I DEMAND answers? Lol okay, I don’t like drama but I will keep this going and successfully defend myself every single damn time.
Seana, thanks for responding. I also don’t believe it’s the same hairs growing back! Actually I completely agree with what you just said except that 12-16 weeks. I found some contradiction info on it so please bear with me…
I had done a plucking experiment a while back (my entire chin) to see the regrowth without any treatments. There was a total of around 2200 hairs on the first tweezing rampage (removed all of them). I was hairless for a week, then in the next few weeks, there were new hairs growing and I removed all of them as soon as they appeared, the total was about the same amount (2200) in the spawn of 4 weeks. Granted there were gradually less and less hairs to tweeze, but once I stopped the experiment, in about a month my original beard density came back to normal. This is also what happens when I get a all the hairs removed with electro on the beard, I can’t see a reduction with only one ‘‘clearance’’ or sweep.
On the body it’s different though, I made my electrologist clear an area around my nipple. I was hairless for about 1-2 week. About 1,5 month later, I could see a slight difference in hair density, maybe 20% reduction, however I’m aware that maybe more hairs will regrow because it hasn’t been that long and the density might increase like it was before (but hopefully it will stay at a permanent 20% reduction, we’ll see).
Those two examples lead me to believe that the face has either a much faster growth rate (like maybe a month, since every time I seem to tweeze or get electro the initial density comes back to pretty much the same in that amount of time) OR a much lower visible percentage of hair showing up at any time (like 20%, but that seems contradicting to a few sources I’ve seen), OR BOTH. Considering all this, that 12-16 weeks seems far off for at least for the face, no? I AM ASKING, NOT ACCUSING YOU OF LYING!
no, 12=16 weeks is the correct amount of time.
There is some evidence to suggest that it can be slightly less (8 weeks or so) if the area has sustained a lot of trauma ( such as being thouroughly plucked ) caused by excess blood flow into the area, but I am aware of no circumstances that can make it less than that.
It takes time for the dermal papillae , which is damaged by the plucking, to regenerate itself in order to feed another hair. It also takes time for the stem cells to interact witht he dermal papillae and form a new anogen hair, and for that hair to grow out to the surface. If you are seeing hairs a week or two from when treated, then they are NOT the same hairs.
Edit: your “plucking experiment” actually proves a point abut hair cycles.
If I clear an area,in about a month, I willam killing hairs with electrolysis, this is exactly what I see too I see just the same amount of hair a motnh later. This is completely normal!! If I clear an area completely, then a month later, by your thinking I should see the same amount, less my kill rate. But it’s the same , why? Because the chin is the densest number of follicles and only a portion of the hairs are seen. This is why we tell clients not to be concerned witht he apparent lack of progress during the first 4-6 months. Because these are not the same hairs! We dont see the benefits of out work start to emerge for 4-6 months, and THAT is when we note the reduction caused by our kill rate. Did we suddenly start “killing” hair 5 months in? NO! at 4-6 months, we are finally seeing the results from our FIRST clearance.