Brazilian/Hollywood possible?

Hair Removal Methods Professional Electrolysis
#21

I would say 50 - 60 hours for the first clearing (not more), 30 or so for the second and 15 for the final. A big job. I would also say: no further growth on this guy (lucky for him). Were he coming from a good distance, this would be my estimate. What’s your estimate?

Look, I’ve been in business nearly 40 years and understated “variables.” But I also don’t buy “no clue at all,” and therefore NO estimate at all. Who would enter into treatment without knowing the basic game plan? However, some areas are “set in stone” for me, e.g., underarms … I often charge a flat fee, and that’s it (always less than 8 hours … guaranteed.)

My results are identical to Fino Gior’s and his method is completely different than mine. So, well, there it is. Yes, universal standards ARE possible and I see nearly identical results coming from many different therapists who have achieved a certain level of competence.

Now, I will ask Dee:

  1. Is $4,800 reasonable for a man’s “package?”
  2. Is 175 hours reasonable for the underarms?

I do like your “peace on earth” statement … I try to live by that. However, people always know exactly where I stand on issues.

This is looking like “James and Dee vs. Mike and Jossie” Good company all! This has put a smile on MY face too.

I think the four of us should put on a convention … Now that would be a WOW!"

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#22

Well, if this is the same guy who appears in the thread “Part II Laurier” and I think so, his upper arms have little hair density. By contrast, his back is completely covered with hair. Based on data from previous cases, I’d say about 8 hours to both shoulders, and about 40 hours for the back in the first clearance. The hairs are missing due to the shedding phase, so the second clearance would take less than 20 hours.
As Michael said, this guy has developed all the hair that can be developed in the area, so the third clearance would be done in less than 10 hours. After that, the hairs that may appear to be barely noticeable half a meter away.

#23

Well, I’m picking through my silly “musings” here on our illustrious Hairtell … to unearth the secret “smile.” I think I found it.

My criticism of myself is that I didn’t take the time to really know what the UK “package” guy was asking for. I simply assumed that he wanted to know about that “special area” that I have done way too many times. If he wanted the usual case, then my estimate would stand. However, maybe he was thinking about something greatly different? Maybe some exotic removal that I’d not considered?

Of course, with more data and photos I would gladly submit an estimate. So, yes, I was wrong in not taking the time to understand the request. Still, $4,800 is insanely too much for the “package” area … even in the extreme. On the larger issue (which interested me), estimates are simply mandatory for the client’s benefit.

Maybe that was the tiny “gem” that gave my skulking detractors their “good laugh?” Still, even God got to change his mind and cover his errors … you know, two variable testaments (Old and New)? If that’s not the “laugh on me,” just go ahead and keep it to yourself! I probably wouldn’t get it anyway.

Anyway, it’s 80 degrees here and I should be at the BEACH! I have a few more hours and I’m going!

#24

It probably wasn’t fair of me to ask my expert colleagues for a TTT, without benefit of seeing this person with a better picture or up close and personal. He’s a pretty big guy and yes, Jossie, he is the same guy from the Laurier thread and actually, his upper arms had a fair amount of hair. I promise to share more data and detail with you when he is cleared. As you know, with the Apilus Platinum, we can view cumulative insertions and cumulative time on an ongoing basis.

I agree that underarms shouldn’t take 175 hours and male genitals should not cost $4,600, but details about the variables do make a difference, so it could be that amount?

I’m not sure there can be a standard established because of those variables mentioned earlier by James and David, which all electrologists know exist. When I consult with a client, I can only talk about the real life data collected from similar client cases to explain how it all went for those clients that had the same area done. People are reasonable. They understand that their hair pattern and amount of hair is unlike others who have gone before them. General TTT can be given, but it should be backed up by pictures and numbers from other cases. After that, I feel the need to emphasize that they may be done sooner ? or they may take longer? One thing for sure, they see improvement a couple months down the road, so they know they are advancing to some place good.

How do you determine the Total Treatment Time? Is the palm of hand approach your method?

#25

Funny how when the dust settles and all the feathers get unruffled … we end up agreeing on the issue.

#26

No feathers have been ruffled. :slight_smile: All is well.

Mike and Josefa,

How do you determine the Total Treatment Time? Is the palm of hand approach your method?

#27

In my case, by observing the hair density.

#28

Mike,

Perhaps use of the world “infinate” as it relates to variables affecting efficacy was a poor choice. In any event, there are more factors than just hair growth cycles alone. With a “guarantee,” how do you factor in the potential for new hair growth in the treated area resulting from health issues and the natural aging process which can stimulate continuous growth of body hair in males for a period of years before it stabilizes? Is a “guarantee” only applicable in areas of stable hair growth and if so what is your criteria for determining stability? Do you determine TTT based on general observation or use a formula (i.e. AREA = number of square centimeters X DENSITY = average number of hairs per square centimeter) and base this on 100% kill?

#29

Inexperienced electrologists cannot begin to determine TTT by observing the hair density. Is there another way, Jossie, such as a formula like David lays out, that you have heard of and used with success? Maybe we need to approach the answer to this question, not based on years of doing certain areas and observation, but with something measurable. I question how many seasoned electrologists, who don’t do large areas, would even know how to answer the Total Treatment Time question.

I will say that the client I am working on now will be nowhere close to a clearance in 40 hours and I am using auto sensor at .04 seconds, Synchro thermolysis, averaging 15 - 19 insertions per minute, which means 900 - 1,100 insertions per hour. This is not my average male back case. The good news is, the reduction rate is notieable and he is pretty comfortable THANKS TO THE LAURIER IBP # 6 . No anesthetics have been needed. The neck area is more punchy, but he tolerates it all very well.

I can’t wait to gather more data to share with you. I am guessing that this case will require about 125 -150, hours spread out over 14 months, but it is only a guess based on a gut feeling. We’ll see how close I come to that guesstimate when its over. My guy is in it to win and I tell him that I always win the hair battle, and when I win, he wins. ha!ha!

#30

Since we are dealing with many different variables, in many possible combinations, I would find infinite to be nothing close to irresponsible hyperbole.

A client of mine drank a chi-tea at lunch, and ruined the rest of our scheduled day of work. I suppose if we had been relying on lidocaine injections this would not have mattered. However, this day, we went from moving right along at 750 hairs per hour, to “let me sleep it off, and get back to you tomorrow.” We went sight seeing and to a play instead that day.

#31

What was wrong with drinking a chi-tea, James?

#32

Caffeine.
You do recall how we have told you that caffeine makes ones sensation of pain more intense, yes?
Of course, if all electrolysis practitioners were practicing Lidocaine Administration, that would not be an issue, now would it?

We could all forget about upgrading our equipment at the cost of thousands and even tens of thousands of dollars. We could forget about trying to find a balance between comfort, effective treatment, and avoiding over-treatment. We could just crank it up and zap away without a care to how much water a client has NOT ingested in the past week, or how many martinis they had at lunch, or what ever other bad habits one may have engaged.

#33

“We could all forget about upgrading our equipment at the cost of thousands and even tens of thousands of dollars. We could forget about trying to find a balance between comfort, effective treatment, and avoiding over-treatment.”

One can do all this and also exploit the benefit of lidocaine administration. I don’t see why it would preclude those points.

I think this is bit off topic anyway.

#34

Of course, I recall about caffeine. But I have to confess that I thought the main culprits were coffee, cola and chocolate. I did not think that one cup of tea can ruin all electrolysis treatment!

#35

Most teas have caffeine. Everyone’s metabolism and treatment sensitivity is different. While we could have continued to work, the CLIENT decided that the difference in sensation between the work we did prior to lunch, and the sensation experienced just 90 minutes later was such that this person chose to sit out the rest of the day and lose the thousands of hairs we could have removed, instead of gutting it out. The funny thing is, when the client ordered the tea, I said, “You do know that has caffeine in it?” The client said, “Oh, this small amount should not make a difference.”
It was the best illustrative situation for someone to understand why we practitioners are such nags about hydration, caffeine, rest, and good nutrition.

Of, course, we could just shoot you up with lidocaine and charge you more, leaving you with zero responsibility for the condition of your body being ready for treatment.

#36

Although, I have the “local” option, nearly ALL of my work is WITHOUT this application. For the face: NEVER!! Utilization of physician-assisted techniques does not negate normal care (and has no effect on the outcome). Indeed, proper hydration, proper sleep, nutrition and especially caffeine are all part of my 40 year experiences. Please don’t make the incorrect presumption that practitioners simply “bludgeon” their clients. Adding to your excellent suggestions …

I have found that a good solid meal before treatment is crucial. Proper blood-sugar levels really make a difference in the pain experienced. People that are rushed and only have a cup of coffee for breakfast are going to have a BAD time! Also, nibbling throughout the treatment is a great idea: I always have lots of high-protein snacks available and take lots of breaks for a quick nibble. (Protein is better than high-carbs: more stable blood sugar.)

OH YES! NO caffeine of any kind (no Chi-tea). Our doctor said that people think “green tea” is okay but it’s NOT! Somehow it’s even worse than “normal” tea!

I also dislike the person that has LOTS of appointments in the day and is “squeezing you in.” This type of scheduling creates increased pain. I always suggest that clients have no appointments after our treatment … just go home and “chill.” Without this added stress, pain is lessened.

Indeed, all you suggestions are accurate for the well-being of the patient. Many tips I’ve learned about here on Hairtell I found very helpful, have added them to my protocol, and I am now using with big rewards … Thanks to all of you!

I hope all our East Coast folks are safe and sound after the storm … let us know how you managed. I have some friends that live at “the Cape” and I’m worried sick … I have not heard from them. How did that area do in the storm?

#37

I find it interesting and AMAZING ass to how many requests wer get for treasting PAIN from a procedure that is commonly advertised as PAINLESS.

What is more amazing is the replies here from PROFESSIONALS, who are thought to know the answers.

#38

Come again?

#39

I am not aware of any electrologist that advertises their services as “painless,” unless treatments are administered under a local anesthetic (medical supervision required). Yes, some techniques and machines are considered more tolerable than others, but “painless” (as in free from) it is not!

#40

Oh, is that what he meant? Thanks for interpreting that, David.