AEA

Hair Removal Methods Professional Electrolysis
#21

Michael, just to clarifiy on the background of Gretchens initial contribution: the AEA runs a facebook groop. When this group was initiated, Barbara invited also the non AEA electrologists who are active here, including Jossie, Gretchen, June Adams. That open policy had been withdrawn the day before yesterday, and a discussion came up (actually the demand “join the AEA in order to participate in that discussion” which i consider ridiculous especially against Jossie) which motivated these non AEA electrologists to cancel their membership. The tone of that discussion was not always fine, and that’s probably the reason for this thread. Quite interestingly (and not surprising…) this were mostly members who were not active and profited from especially Jossies contributions.

What we did was the obvious thing: make our own groups. Thats ELECTROLOGY INTERNATIONAL and that is also HAIRSHOOT. BTW: i would always prefer a well designed forum for such discussions because these allow far more structure in the topics and have far better possibilities to refer to older contribution. If there is any interest i can contribute ressources (vserver space) and set up and maintain such a forum technically.

#22

Wow. Well good luck to them.

To be honest, I think HairTell has been amazing in regards to the transfer of information and quantifiable progress.

#23

I think one of the best posts I’ve read on HairTell is by Lola. I hope it’s self-evident why (it’s not the part about Jossie).

#24

Thanks so much Beate and all of you for filling me in on the latest AEA debacle. (Why is this shit so predictable?) It’s really funny, because after talking to Patsy Kirby I got giddy and super enthusiastic. And then it all evaporated … ganz kaput!

Jossie was kind enough to copy and send me all the correspondence on the AEA site. I read through all of it and uncovered the fundamental argument. Here’s the direct quote:

“AEA is working hard to make sure that AEA Members get something of value in exchange for their dues. If non-Members get everything that members get, then why would anyone join at all?”

And this is the motivating foundation of those making unimaginative decisions. The thinking is archaic and totally out-of-step with what is happening on the internet. Somebody needs to take a college class in “internet communications” and not rely on technical people only.

(The AEA people making such decisions are not “bad” people; they are simply not “getting it.”)

There has been a universal cultural shift that I seriously don’t think folks in the AEA will EVER understand. AEA will continue to marginalize itself and continue to turn away talent that is everywhere out there.

However, I’m very happy to see the starting of “Hairshot” and other on-line democratic savvy groups. I’ll try to find it.

The AEA thinking is that it’s a "nice group of people that gets something for paid membership.” And, that’s ALL it will ever be!

History has shown, however, that when the culture shifts, new institutions evolve to meet the challenge. Hairtell was just the beginning. Stay tuned!

#25

Well said Mike.

#26

I have my own version of what is behind this decision. Someone did not want certain things to be aerated. The behavior of the AEA is sectarian and as with any sect, leaders can not allow its members to have too much information about what happens outside their domains. Some of them may find that pay to get the “CPE” does not guarantee professional success. Nor does the fact of belonging to an association is as important for a client who is seeking a good professional.

#27

Dear Seana,

This is a collective decision. I am not the “boss” or some kind of dictator of this newly formed group and I had no control over the closed forum on AEA Facebook. Groups do have a the right to set their own rules. If you disagree with those rules, then one has the right to say so and then to move on and create their own group. The more choices, the better. I guess if we have to assign labels to how things work, words like “FEEDOM” and “DEMOCRACY” and “FREEDOM OF SPEECH” would come to mind. In my view, Hairtell is the public forum that gives and keeps on giving to the non-electrologists. Electrologists have shared a plethora of information here, with the consumer, and sometimes it makes others cringe in our industry. I have been told several times that I give out too much information (for free) and that I should cool it.

How can we better serve your needs here, Seana? I don’t say that smugly, I would respect your opinion on what you think is lacking here in its present form.

#28

He!He! Mike. No, I don’t anger easily. It does take a lot, but the discussion on the AEA closed forum was more about a passionate plea (not anger) for the leadership of the AEA to reconsider a recent decision to uninvite all the wonderful people and skilled electrologists from all over the world that were participating and sharing helpful information about everything electrolysis. It was like breaking up a cyber gathering at a friends kitchen table, sharing tea and stories with each other. To be a part of that free Facebook site, it was decided that admission would now be charged because that is a perk one gets for being a dues paying member of the AEA ( way over a hundred dollars to become a member of the AEA).

So, the case was pleaded. We gave it a good try to stand up for our colleagues around the world and it is not to be. They are choosing to enforce the rules they said were always there, but not enforced.

There are many good, good people that work very hard volunteering in the AEA. It takes a lot of time to do what they do as an organization, and many respect that dedication. I don’t know where the buck stops for decision making issues like this, so I do hope people can sort out the few from the many in this case. I am more sad for what could have been a more imaginative effort to embrace more electrologists. A free Facebook site costs the AEA nothing, but they managed to lose a lot in this PR disaster that could have been avoided if listening ears would have been sharper.

We all go forward now with new ways of being together, in the spirit of sharing and friendship. A better day is ahead!

#29

Dee I completely appreciate this wasnt solely your decision to implement this. That said however I want you to think about it from an outside point of veiw. Electrolysis International is in response to the AEA 's changing the rules and restricting access to their facebook section to non-members. So, in response you create a group that in turn restricts access to those you dont deem to be worthy of recieving information of advice. Whether you are protecting income from paying members as AEA is, or protecting income by restricting access to your intellectual property it’s essentially the same thing. I dont want to pick on you for it Dee because as stated you do for the most part give uncompromisingly of your knowledge and experience. , it’s still essentially the same thing. I would point out though that there are a number of DIY’ers that study harder, and attain more knowledge, that even a good chunk of the pro’s who take minimal retraining just to upkeep their cerrtification. Heck I spend more time studying skin physiology and infection control than I do any other activity in my life. Yes you are free to put whatever rules you want on your group you like, a Mike said " it’s a free country" but I would point out that those that are restricted from useful resources arent likely to give to those same resources later on . Can you imagine if Jossie was prevented from joining your group because they couldnt prove licensing in their country? While I’m sure not every DIY er later turns pro, a definite percentage do. James is a good example of that. You, ( and your collective leadership) are free to do as yu want, but I would point out anyone you turn away now,you likely turn away forever. And in many jurisdictions ( Canada and about 50% of states) there IS no licensing. While I dont necessrily recommend it, people can, and will and regularly DO , start practising even professionally with nearly zero training . Technically, and legally I could hang up a shingle outside my house, with no certificate and even less experience, andstart practising " professional Electrolysis" right now. I’m not about to , but your rules are vague enough and the regulations so inconsistent from jurisdiction to jurisdiction, that it would be enough to satisfy your requirements. In canada for example where I live, the FCEA and an two organizations in BC have applied for restrictions on electrolysis and for platformed licensing and inspection. Have a look here:
http://www.health.gov.bc.ca/professional-regulation/hpc/reports/apps-electrol.html

if you read through that, the findings are that they were pretty much unilaterally turned down, the findings were that the process did not sufficiently affect public health to be considered for this. A summary of those findings are as follows:

II. STATEMENT OF ISSUES

The issues addressed by the Council were:

1) whether the practice of electrology meets the definition of a "health profession" contained in section 1 of the Act;

2) the extent to which the practice of electrology may involve a risk of physical, mental, or emotional harm to the health, safety, or well being of the public as specified in section 5(1) of the Regulation; and

3) whether it would be in the public interest to designate the profession of electrology under the Act, having regard to the criteria of section 5(1) and (2) of the Regulation.

III. RECOMMENDATIONS

The Health Professions Council recommends to the Minister of Health and Minister Responsible for Seniors that:

1) electrology not be designated as a health profession under the Health Professions Act; and

2) the Minister of Health ensure that the provisions of the Health Act are enforced with regard to all electrology practitioners.

The FCEA has had only slightly more success, in that they were able to register the C.P.E. a a registered trademark under industry canada, but that such a designation is NOT required to perform electrolysis in a professional capacity.

So, if your restriction is that in order to be a member one must be " In the business within the jurisdiction that they practise" , I’d point out that this is a insignificant restriction, and sufficiently vague that almost anyone could qualify, regardless of whether they have any educational background in electrolysis at all. A quickie chairside instruction, is enough to qualify them to become a “professional electrolysist” and qualify under your stated rules.What it DOES though is ensure that information on sufficient infection control techniques does NOT reach those who could benefit from it most. This is one example, but it’s an important one.
What concerns me honestly is exactly that you have stated:

Electrologists have shared a plethora of information here, with the consumer, and sometimes it makes others cringe in our industry. I have been told several times that I give out too much information (for free) and that I should cool it.

This I think is the biggest mistake of all. There’s a prevelent attitude that information should NOT be shared, and to do so is a huge mistake. Because that’s where you are going to get amatuers NOT following infection control techniques and causing cross contamination. It’s also where you will find people using way too much intensity and scarring the person they are working on. Because this information doesnt appear anywhere, and if it does most professional electrologists will do everything in their power not to draw attention to it… By example, I’l present a couple things from my own experience. There’s been a learning resource list on the DIY forum for about 3 weeks now. I put information there as I’ve come accross it. So have one or two other amatuers. THERE IS NOT ONE POST OR LINK by any of the pro’s, who presumeably, having studiesd such things know what books, what sites, and where such information on for example , physiology, can be found. Not a single one. If protecting against people taking that information and misusing it, one would think that sharing information would actually be a good thing, as it’s putting information where it is most visible to those who can benefit from it and not make serious mistakes as a result. On the other hand, if limiting that same information because you dont want to see more people in the field, and your own profits drop as a result, this makes A LOT more sense.

I also before I post this, want to take a moment Dee to say I am definitely NOT picking on you in particular, if anything you give a lot here. And I do respect you for it. I also make a point of saying when I just dont know something, then often, waiting for you or one of the others to fill inwhat I’m not willing to say because I’m not 100% posative on it. My point is that hairtell is probably the largest and most significant resource for this type of information. But the meat in the sandwich, is missing. And from what I can see, it’s often deliberately so. If I had to make a change I’d do everything I can to put as much “meat in the sandwich” asd I can. And essentially that’s what I try to do. I KNOW I ask alot of questions. I KNOW I’m a massive pain in the ass sometimes. I’m truly sorry for being a pain in the ass. I do have some strong feelings on doing some things for the greater good, and if I’ve offended you by doing so, I’m sorry.

Seana

#30

Seana,

I have read several of your posts but I no way claim to fully understand your stance on matters, but I have two cents to add here.

I am a new grad, I also hold a nursing license in my state. In order to change professions, I spent nearly $20,000 of my own cash.

You have made some interesting points but they seem entirely self serving.

It seems that you want more access to all people so you can accomplish your personal goal.

Granted your own intentions are pure, and techniques are clean, they have to be you are using them ON YOU!

Please give thought to the goals of all the others who wish for this to be a respected profession.

It seems they we need your voice LOUD AND PROUD but on the other side.

#31

Since people are complaining about the AEA here, I have a small bone to pick with them.

Recently, they did a new recruitment ad picturing 5 fresh faced ladies chosen to show a multicultural inclusion. My problem… not one man pictured. There are two blonde Caucasians in the ad, but not one man! Really?

#32

Good, good point James!

#33

To further this point about why there are closed social networks, I just read this piece from Skin and Allergy News. I thought it was very good!

Physician online communities

By: JEFFREY BENABIO, M.D.

10/16/13

|
The doctors’ lounge: A hallowed space for sharing challenging cases and discussing the Affordable Care Act or a place to catch a nap and commiserate? It can (and likely should) be both. Unfortunately, doctors’ lounges are a thing of the past for many of today’s physicians. Whether you’re in private practice or work in a place that simply has no social space for physicians, it can be difficult to connect and share professional and personal information with colleagues.

Technology is offering a solution. In the last few years, physician-only online communities have burgeoned. Sermo, the largest of these communities, boasts more than 125,000 licensed physicians from more than 65 specialties as members. Other big players include Medscape Physician Connect and Doximity. Many smaller specialty-specific communities have surfaced as well, such as OrthoMind.com and MomMD.com, social networks exclusively for orthopedic surgeons and women in medicine (including nurses and residents), respectively.

Unlike open social forums such as Facebook and Twitter, these physician communities are closed social networks, which means that only credentialed members can join and participate. This exclusivity has been a large draw for physicians otherwise skeptical of using social networks. However, it’s worth noting that several sites allow access to other health care providers, including nurses, residents, and medical students.

Ideally, these close social networks exist to help physicians maximize benefits (collaborating and networking) and reduce risks (liability and online reputation). To allay concerns of risk, some sites, including Sermo and Medscape, allow confirmed physicians to choose an alias. On the upside, such anonymous posting allows for franker discussions; on the downside, it can lend itself to unprofessionalism, such as posting inappropriate or incendiary comments.

How many physicians are using these online physician communities? Between 25% and 28%, according to a 2011 study from QuantialMD, and a 2012 study from the Journal of Medical Internet Research. These numbers continue to grow.

If you’ve wondered whether to join a physician-only online community, here are six potential benefits:

• Curbside consults. These communities provide access to thousands of physicians, including specialists, which offers you a tremendous opportunity to get a curbside consult for that difficult patient. Often you can get both diagnostic and treatment suggestions quickly and cost free.

• Current event information. Missed a journal or a conference? These communities are great ways for you to stay informed. You can ask questions or simply follow conversations based on particular topics.

• Help with patient management. We’ve all had to work with difficult patients; the truth is some of us are better at it than others. These communities allow you to ask for advice (anonymously if you’re more comfortable with that) from other professionals who have navigated similar situations successfully and wish to help.

• The ability to share best practice information. Whether it’s a new medication or an office management solution, online communities are rich resources for sharing best practices. Many sites also allow you to poll fellow members, which yields personalized, instantaneous, real feedback.

• The ability to become a thought leader/expert. Whether you’re an established expert in your field or are building your reputation, these communities are effective vehicles for identifying people who stand out from the pack. Establishing yourself as a respected leader in a community can also lead to professional opportunities such as speaking invitations or other leadership roles.

• Networking. Sometimes we physicians forget that it’s beneficial to simply be social. These communities don’t always have to be about improving office efficiency or diagnosing difficult cases; sometimes they can simply be a place to hang out and connect with like-minded people. It’s not uncommon for online relationships to develop into real-life ones, such as connecting at a conference or collaborating on a volunteer project.

Remember, like any worthwhile network, these sites are only as valuable as your participation in them. And before posting questionable material, make sure it’s content that you would be comfortable sharing with a physician in person.

If you belong to a physician-only online community, please share your thoughts with us online, via the Skin & Allergy News Facebook page, or via e-mail (sknews@frontlinemedcom.com). What benefits or drawbacks have you encountered?

The next time you need advice on a challenging case or simply feel like connecting with colleagues, consider joining a physician online community. Just realize that there won’t be any hot coffee and donuts.

Dr. Jeffrey Benabio is a practicing dermatologist and Physician Director of Healthcare Transformation at Kaiser Permanente in San Diego. Connect with him on Twitter @Dermdoc or drop him a line at benabio@gmail.com.

#34

I agree Dee, closed networks have been very valuable for me especially in my early years of the profession. It is very difficult to come to Hairtell when you are at a vulnerable stage in your career and face criticism from non-professionals and possibly your colleagues. More the non’professionals than your colleagues, the non-professionals can read all day long but they rarely if ever do they have a probe holder in there hands. I must say though that this open forum will make you a better electrologist if you let it.

#35

I still don’t like the AEA. Just because you might be a member or a CPE does not make one a good electrologist. What it says is that you have paid money to be apart of their special group.

#36

I changed my mind!

Thanks for the excellent post Dee Dee. I’ve been thinking about this (as well as reading Hairtell with a bit of consternation) … AND the conclusion is that I’ve changed my mind. Yeah a full 180-degree-turn. (Actually, I had changed my mind before I read your post.)

AEA is correct in developing a “closed site” for electrologists. I was wrong (I often am!)

I do think that an open site like Hairtell is very important for all the reasons that you, Dee Dee, have expressed so well (as always). However, a site where electrologists can share real-world experiences and give advice to colleagues? It’s a real needed enterprise.

Lately, I have expressed some discontent with a few posters and was fairly loudly denounced, and that’s fine too. I never mind people being angry with me or “calling me down.” I’m used to it; I was raised on it (New Yorker/Italian father). But here’s a recurring problem for me.

The casual reader of Hairtell doesn’t know exactly who is posting, or what their experience really is: are they speaking from actual experience, or are they just repeating something (perhaps incorrect) that they heard or read somewhere?

I “scrubbed” with Dr. Perkins (hair transplants and plastic surgery) and he’s a great friend and “THE laser guy” in Santa Barbara. I worked with Anita (dated her) and she was our laser tech at “Skin Essentials.” We talk about laser all the time and they have zapped me (did great work too), but that does NOT consequently make me an expert in laser hair removal!

Laser is a medical procedure and as such the physician in charge, who is actually LOOKING at the patient and has his own laser to contend with, should make medical decisions. Brenton, for example, (a great smart kid and I like him) often gives actual settings and recommends specific machines. He’s not a physician and he’s giving medical advice to a patient that he has not seen in “the flesh.” He’s a client, not a physician or laser tech.

I know that Seana is VERY enthusiastic about her learning electrolysis … and I LOVE this about her. She is a “sweetheart” and I don’t want to be a “wet blanket.” However, several weeks ago, at the outset of her adventure, she didn’t know how to spell “galvanic.” And now, in a few posts, she’s sounding like an expert: giving information on modalities and advice on how to use “galvanic.”

Now and then, the person “LAgirl” (and I like her a lot too) suddenly appears and seems to “hijack” the whole board. I’m not sure, but I don’t think that she’s a physician or “laser tech” either, and yet she speaks with GREAT authority on lots of subjects.

To the people I named …. PLEASE don’t get upset! I’m not “denouncing you” at all. However, I would take a moment and consider that you are not in a position to give real counsel to actual patients of medical procedures. I don’t do it.

I have never given a single bit of information on laser, or other modalities that I have never actually used in my own hands! The other suggestions I make are based on discussions I’ve had with Dr. Chapple. I know I sound like a “prickly old bastard” some time, (I suppose I am one), but this worries me. When you post on the internet your OPINION can suddenly become FACT … and that’s always something to think about.

I “try” to limit my comments to the subjects that I have in-depth knowledge about; this means “techniques and modalities” that I’ve used for many years. I avoid subjects that I know little about, because some poor soul might take my opinion and act on it.

But sometimes, like all of us, I express an opinion. Just like my original ranting about AEA? Well, I see now that I was “butt-ugly wrong" and I’m an idiot!

Opinions? You know what they say about opinions … “Just like ‘blank blanks’ everybody has one!”

#37

As an aside Michael, you may have noticed several weeks ago I mentioned having an autistic son. Actually, I have 3 children on the autism speectrum but one is more seriously aflicted than the others. You dont get that kind of outcome in your children, without having certain traits yourself it’s a genetic disorder. One of those traits, is doing certain things habitually or with regularity. Such as mispelling Galvanic. I can, if I put the effort into it, get it right. But I often dont bother. You’ve misread this. As you have a great number of things. I dont hold it against you, I experience this lack of understanding on a daily basis. But I wonder if you realize I had read this board for 2 years before I signed up to post? I DONT pretend to be an expert on everything and REGULARLY state in my posts that I’m not a professional and their opinions may differ from mine. I’m simply not.As a transperson ( and like many transpeople) things like hair removal are important to me and have been something I’ve looked at information on for YEARS not months. . Dont assume because I only posted a few short months ago, that I came in with zero. It simply isnt the case either.

Whether the AEA has a closed forum, is frankly immaterial. You are posting on Hairtell. The forum is designed, to pass information along between Pro’s AND between clients. You stated previously you werent comfortable having your opinion thrown into a “virtual salad” . It was stated plainly to you, by myself, that the pro’s here are identified with each and every post, with a red “HAirtell Pro” moniker on every post. I suppose if you dont feel comfortable posting in an open forum, you have the option of NOT posting, but honestly your contributions would be missed. IF you dont feel that your opinions are differentiated from the average layman, DIYer, then frankly you are incorrect. I for one constantly bring attention to the fact that you are a pro with alot of teaching potential and a lot to contribute ( by the way did you catch the “alot” ? It’s another quirk of my language, I do that one alot too . I left it on purpose to demonstrate a point to you.Sometimes I go back and correct my posts, others not. )

I see Dee’s post, and honestly the first thing that crosses my mind, is “These people are NOT physicians.” Electrolysists liek to act as if they are though. But the truth is none of you took your doctorate in electrolysis. You ALL started somewhere. State after state, and province after province, have systematically said that electrolysis is NOT invasive enough to be considered a medical profession. And most dont even have any licensing.While I realize it may be easier for you as an electrolysist to have patients come in with no knowledge whatsoever and blindly accept what you tell them that it is a homogenous product, the simple fact is that IT ISNT such. There are differences. And when you have an open forum such as hairtell people, ALL PEOPLE not just those who feel they are “qualified electrolysists” are going to discuss those differences. And some of those people WILL have studied their asses off, and may even come accross sounding as if, gasp, they freaking know what they are talking about. While it would be very convenient for all people going for electrolysis to be sheep, and never question what you say, despite all your experience , the world doesnt work that way. What you are essentially asking for is to have your cake and eat it too. You want the private AEA association, and you want no clients to talk to each other on Hairtell either unless their opinions have been vetted by people like yourself. The internet doesnt work that way either.
If that is the direction hairtell is going, let me know now. I’ll have forum software up and running by tommorrow, and us clients and DIY’ers can leave you all in peace and go discuss amoungst ourselves. In the meantime if the fact you are already identified as having a higher opinion as a pro is not good enough to you to differentiate your opinion, then you already have an option. Use the forums the way they were designed, or not.

I’ve spent a good portion of my week discussing most of electrolysis via private messages. It seems my opinion, at least to some , is of some value and even occasionally sought after. I’m disappointed that the same respect I’ve shown you isnt returned, but I’m okay with it either way. As a side note, even without discussing things back and forth, I’ve STILL learned something about electrolysis. I have for example, learned that just like cooking, electrolysis isnt something you should try to do when you are angry or upset. As another side note, I have NEVER given advice on how to perform Galvanic. I have stated I am studying it ( or was I havent done any galvanic for several weeks, and have opted for blend) . I also took a lot of flack, from you in particular, on a certain page on galvanic. Somehow several of you have jumped to the conclusion that I was somehow “pushing” one modultion over another. That isnt the case, I asked uestions certainly, because I took ALL of your advice and learned it first. With consequences. But I dont push one modality over another. I dont have the experience to do so. I have a healthy respect for thermolysis, AND the damage that can be done in unskillled hands with it. Beyond that, I dont EVER recommend one modality over another, but I will sometimes discuss the differences.You in particular, have made an awful lot of assumptions about myself, and others. I have often thought that I seem to be "saying " a lot of things that I dont ever actually say. Honestly, more reading, and less jumping to conclusions, would be a good idea.

Seana

#38

All good points Seana and I don’t disagree.

#39

A real-world example.

As several of you know, a few weeks ago I had cancer symptoms. All went well and I had every test in the book and I’m fine (symptoms are gone too). Diagnosis: I was probably using too much weight on the bench press!

However, at LONG last I finally gave in and had the dreaded colonoscopy on Thursday.

I have been avoiding this procedure for the last 10 years at least … why? Go on the internet and read all the horror stories from both patients and “physicians.” I won’t go into detail; you can read these yourself. I was convinced that I would have all the difficulties so often mentioned.

And, I experienced absolutely NONE of the post-treatment difficulties; not one. This procedure was ridiculously easy in every way. However, because of the non-experts voicing their opinions on-line, I was fearful of having the procedure.

The physician that did my procedure talked with me about his real anger about all the negative postings on the internet … postings that could lead to a patient’s death!

My test was perfect, no problems. However, what if my 10-year delay had resulted in colon cancer?

Seana, you are missing my point. My point is that opinions can influence patients. I was not specifically pointing at you (you don’t seem to do that), but laser is a medical procedure (and so is electrolysis in point of fact).

All of us, self included, need to remember that our statements might influence someone to make the wrong decision.

Caution! That’s what I’m talking about. Now, let’s all “kiss and make up” and carry on!

#40

However, what if my 10-year delay had resulted in colon cancer?

Then you would be an absolute moron for not discussing things with your physician. The point of the online forum is for people to share opinions AND discuss these points with their electrologists (or doctors in your example.) The difference here is that there are electrologists on this forum that can verify or disagree with things consumers post (perhaps your doctor should stop getting angry about negative posting and go online and work to combat it?) It is your job to weigh what you read with someone’s opinion you know is an expert. My patience has worn really thin with people not smart enough to do that.

As for laser, many people keep asking the same questions (are these settings strong enough?) which a laser tech (Romeo/Chris) has answered here many times. Most of the time when a yes or no is given, that’s given based off the numbers on the manufacturer’s manuals AND from what Romeo was said (I feel like I keep posting this fact…)