What does influence the kill rate?

Hair Removal Methods Professional Electrolysis
#1

I’ve had over 30 full clearings (over 30 weeks) in some areas of my face, and noticed that some worked more than others. For example, the neck beard area worked quite well, unlike my sideburns… Both with about the same amount of clearings and always treating new hairs every week. The only difference I can think of between those 2 areas would be a greater amount of very pale hairs on the sideburns (almost transparent, unlike my overall beard which has mostly darker blond hairs).

First assumption: I don’t think it’s about phases of the hair, since they all were starting the anagen phase, except on the first clearing.

Second assumption: I don’t think ‘‘hidden hairs’’ appeared after 30 weeks, that’s almost 8 months on the face.

Please correct me if I’m wrong in those.

So what else could potentially influence the kill rate? (few ideas in mind: electrologist positioning, hair dept, hair colour?)

#2

After 8 months, it is possible that between 5-10% of the hairs can still appear, even if your electrologist’s kill rate has been 99% throughout the process.

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#3

Electrologist positioning. This aspect only affects the speed of execution. If the client’s position is not ideal, the practitioner will have more difficulty making quick insertions. Such a thing will slow down the procedure, but should not influence the % kill rate.

Depth of hair is directly related to the size and caliber of the hair, and therefore with the size of the target to be destroyed. A terminal hair requires a deeper and wider lesion than a fine or intermediate hair. The % kill rate should be the same.

Hair colour. The absence or presence of melanin is an irrelevant factor in the % kill rate.

The % kill rate is conditioned only to these two factors: A) The perfect coordinates to enter with the needle, and B) An intuitive application of current in the heart or brain of the follicle.

#4

I see, thank you for your answers.

Unrelated question regarding size of hair, does repetitive electro somehow shrinks the diameter of the hair? Or is that just the new feeling of having less (or none) hair around it so it feels ‘‘weaker’’ to the touch?

#5

The speed with which a hair grows, as well as the duration of its growth stage is directly related to its size. Thus, in male beard, once its development is complete, it is formed by terminal hair with an average of 80% thick hairs in anagen phase (growth) and a small percentage in telogen phase, and although we do not appreciate them there is also a small percentage of thinner hairs.

If your electrologist is working on a beard that has been shaved a few days before the beggining of treatment, she or he will be able to work only on thick hairs that are in active phase (growth phase or anagen). One or two weeks later, the operation will be repeated in another handful of hairs in active phase. And so on. As each handful of new hairs is treated and eliminated, new hairs with a smaller caliber will appear (since the caliber of these hairs is smaller, they need more time to appear on the scene). This phenomenon is what makes many consumers and electrologists believe that it is regrowth of the same hairs that have lost thickness.

#6

Is it harder for an electrologist to figure out the hair phase and act accordingly with the needle than having all the hairs in anagen phase?

Would that be a reason why some (or most) electrologist are obsessed with anagen hairs that just pierced the skin? That also could explain why some wax or pluck the hair first so it’s easier to have them all at the same… depth?

Again, I love assuming, so please correct me if I’m wrong.

#7

There has been a persisting myth that only follicles in the anagen phase can be ‘killed’ because of a misunderstanding of the anatomy of the hair follicle and where/how the damage needs to occur. To the extent that this is what has been officially taught.

When I started visiting Josefa and Michael was not yet posting on HairTell, no one (as far as memory serves) believed that telogen hairs could be treated effectively and therefore doubted her clearance results. Things are slowly changing. I do wonder what the BIAE in the UK promote now in regards to this.

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#8

I mostly do body hair (in 3 clearances + a couple short “follow-ups”). I RELY on telogen hairs and will not start a treatment until I see LOTS of telogen hairs (in this way, I know we have the maximum amount of hairs to be treated).

The key error is in thinking that the papilla “grows the hair” when, actually, it’s the stem cells that are relatively high in the skin. We should have learned a lot from those doing hair transplants … but nobody has looked at the evidence.

(I did hair transplants with Dr. Perkins … stunning revelations!)

#9

Wow, that is truly interesting!

So, according to a quick internet research, the stem cells are located in some kind of bulge along the hair between the epidermis and papilla. Or maybe they’re located all around the hair and not only in that ‘‘bulge’’? I’m not too sure.

In the telogen phase, that bulge ends up being very close to the papilla (and the skin’s surface).



At least one of the electrologists that I’ve seen targeted the papilla, as she specifically said that my hair was ‘‘deeper than anything she’s seen to get to the bulb’’.

I’m assuming that method still works relatively well, since a few hairs never came back, but maybe at a lower kill rate? The heat probably ends up destroying the stem cells too, or maybe that second zap (double zap method) ends up being near the stem cells after they target the papilla?

I wish you could do that 3 clearance method on the face though, wouldn’t that be amazing?!

#10

The stem cells are located primarily ( but not exclusively) in the bulge. We do treat the entire bulb, most of us target the lower 2/3 of the hair follicle.YOu do want to affect the entire bulb area to loosen it. IT will consequentially kill both the papillae and the stem cells. Think of it this way, you destroy the papillae the hair has no food source and wont grow. You destroy the stem cells it cant grow again. Either will accomplish the same goal,but only one will do the job. Josepha famously commented to me recently she never targets the papilae, just the stem cells.
I use isoblend probes to affect a wide ( peanut shaped) energy pattern over a wide area with Synchro thermolysis . I get a really GOOD kill rate with this. The energy pattern is more than sufficient to affect both papilae and bulge.

Seana

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#11

Well, be careful what you wish for … it might come true.

#12

Yes I’ve seen that post already, and adding it to Michael’s 100h are what started this quest to find out why there is such a big difference in treatment time for some people…

Speaking of kill rate, if I simply ‘‘math’’ the effectiveness of the zapping over a period of time, my personal experience as a client would be around 3% for the hairs on a specific area. My math goes like this, all in approximation:

Hair ratio treated / clearings

Now, there’s no way to know the exact the hair ratio unless you count them (which I sadly didn’t). For the sake of simple math, I’m roughly guessing that there’s around 10% remaining, which equals to 90% effectively treated. Divided by 30 clearings and you get an average of 3% permanently destroyed hairs per clearing. If my guess was incorrect in the remaining % of hair, let’s say I really have 5% remaining, the average would now be 3,17%.

We can conclude that, in my case, the effectiveness is roughly around 3%.

I wouldn’t say kill rate, since there’s obviously a lot of hidden hairs at any time, and there’s no way of figuring out which hair was which (hidden or regrowing), so I’m using the word effectiveness here. One clearing for me was about 1h, that’s why I didn’t include the time factor.

#13

There are many factors that influence “kill rate” (I prefer “success rate”). What factors do NOT equate are the following: 1) credentials of the practitioner, 2) professional office or attire, 3) well-constructed website, 4) (fake) endorsements on said website, 5), Yelp (they can write their own reviews), 6) the make of the machine, 7) the method or modality employed, 8) the needle being used, 9) overall years in the business, 10) nice or pleasant personality. These factors have some influence, but if you rely on these only … no bueno!

Clients usually grapple with “success rate” AFTER they have spent a small fortune, or had (what they assume) were bad results. There are, of course, real ways to test-out a practitioner before being devastated. However, it is up to the client to have a little “attitude,” ask the right questions, and follow the appropriate measures to test and reassure themselves of what’s about to happen.

Ten years ago I was in a wheelchair and wore a steel ankle brace (bad ankle injury from running). I interviewed six surgeons until I found the right one. I reviewed what each had said with my family physician and others in the medical field. Four surgeons said I would never walk or run again. Now, I’m 100% … thanks to the surgeon I found. Indeed, I had to travel … it was worth it.

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#14

Very interesting post Mike ! This is a very precise resume that a lot of pros and consumers should know.

A official trainer of a very famous electrolysis brand told me that the machine have a very big influence on the results. It’s more : she said that results depend a lot on the machine !
We was disagree…

#15

zapmyface let me fill you in a little bit on the math, maybe it will help you out some and make you understand.

In sept 2016 when I was working with another firm here in Ottawa I did a consult with a lady.Her voice was a little low, and at first I thought she might be transgender. She wasnt overweight and had no diagnosis for thyroid issues, PCOS . I do beard removals all the time on transgender people. In about 100 hours. I was not prepared however with just how much hair this lady could have. When I finally got her under the magnifier I was presented with the thickest, densest, widest beard pattern ripe with ingrowns from plucking that I have to date and all languno hair stimulated to terminal from some hormonal influence, ever witnessed. I advised her , that while I could ordinarily complete the job in about 100 hours, that this was so big a job that I feared it might take double that. It still might ( but I rather doubt it) . I advised her to do as much treatment as she could manage within the first 3-4 months, clear as much as we possibly could early on. She took this advice to heart.

That was on Sept 8 2016 and it’s now about 18 months later. So how’d we do? Well I’m happy to report that her hair is significnatly reduced and she is on her way to being a non client. The total treatment time right now stands at 86 hours and 45 minutes. I still work on her about every 3 weeks or amonth, I clear terminal hair for 10-15 minutes and the rest kill some accelerated languno hair that generally doesnt bother her for the est of a 45 minute session. She’ll do this for a few months, but she will have consumed under 90 hours total for the job.

So hurray for her right? Well time after time, year after year, I have heard James, Mike , Dee, Beate, Josepha, and many others make statements that its"somewhere around 100 hours" . But I didnt have enough faith in my own work, to quote at that. If its taking longer than that to do a full beard, then something is wrong.

#16

Ugh I don’t know what to think anymore… On one hand I’m pleased that my 40-50h on my face can be noticeable, but at the same time I’m about a quarter done, so I’m trying to figure out how I can speed this up a bit.

My first electrologist I believe didn’t have much experience with beards (yeah, I know I should’ve probably asked more questions at that time but I was way too eager to at least test it out first, big mistake lol), but the one I’ve seen for the most time afterwards has an extensive experience with male/trans beards and has a few referrals from the community. This was the reason I chose her (I know you’re gonna hate me Michael lol). There just isn’t that many professionals who have done male/trans beards here apparently. She also said that it takes about a year to have most hairs on an area gone, which after about 8 months with her I believe is entirely correct.

I guess I’l talk about my progress… We first decided to concentrate on one area (that wasn’t my chin with scars). https://imgur.com/a/PbXAx https://imgur.com/a/yWTIs This first clearance took about 3h. My sideburns and cheeks aren’t really dense with hairs, so most was done on my neck and jawline. I’d say pilosity wise, this is about a quarter of my face. We then proceeded to clear the regrowing hairs every single week for about 8 months until I stopped. The first week was 3h, then a few 2h and then 1h weekly for the rest of those months. We started doing the other side on the last month or so (about 15min of the hour each week).

Again, I wanna say that I’m happy with the concrete results, I’m not going to take a pic of the area now, but believe me when I say that the hair is mostly gone (which is great). I’m just wondering about the amount of time it took, especially if the routine of going there every week was the most efficient. There’s this annoying little voice at the back of my head whispering: ‘‘but it could be done faster, look at those amazing posts with 2-3 clearances on the entire face for that same amount of time you did on a quarter of your face, why would you go there to suffer every single week when you can also have marathon sessions’’! And then I remember that some people I’ve read about online have over 200h and I shouldn’t even be writing all of this ranty nonsense right now lol!

I’m honestly just trying to figure out how to be the most efficient possible, I personally hate wasting time for something that I (relatively) have the power to change. What can I do to make it more efficient? Would paying more to travel to some miracle worker who can do 2-3 marathon sessions to remove a good portion of my beard be of greater value compared to the longer method that I’ve got going right now? I mean, it works, and it’s cheap (around 40$ USD per hour), so I almost feel bad trying to be more effective and look elsewhere. But oh is it a boring weekly routine that doesn’t see any end…

I’d love to do 10 hours ‘‘marathons’’ once a month (or more), though. But like I said earlier she doesn’t believe in that stuff, should I test it with her to convince her that it can work?

#17

In the words of the Captain Jack Sparrow:
“I know exactly what you mean luv”
In the first 9 months of a trans beard removal ( and I have done this , on my own face) It seems like the hair just keeps on coming. Like you kill all the hair and it just comes right back. I generally reommend 2-3 hour a week for the first 3-4 months for a trans client. I can do it in less if I’m quick or the hair density isnt as high. The way the process works is you do most of the treatment at the beginning, and then it slowly starts to dwindle down the time investment , but not for the first 4 months minimum. At around 9 months, if you are persistent with this, it’s like someone slowly starts turning off the tap. Thats when you first notice it and start to see the results of your work.
From what I understood from your post, I dont understand how you worked up to 50-60 hours in 8 months, it doesnt seem like you are doing that much work?
But the local route, is definitely the way to go and having an electrologist experienced with trans faces is yes, invaluable.

A lot of trans people pit a lot of faith in these “Mass sessions” from About you or e3000 but most of the time when they get done with that, I’ve been told they are disappointed with the amount of regrowth.

The slow easy path, is the RIGHT WAY to do this.

Seana

#18

It’s weird, every time I try to give a lot (too much?) of info I seem to confuse people even more lol. Every time I try to explain I just end up writing a 30 pages essay. The hell with it!

-going to talk like this from now on

-1st electrologist = 10h on face + scars

-2nd electrologist = couldn’t do whole face since scars were healing + suing

-decided to start with left side of my face (pics) =37h in 8 months, worked great

-couldn’t do more since she preached that hairs must be zapped as soon as they appeared every single week otherwise won’t work

-personally not willing to do 15h+ to clear entire face EVERY WEEK

-depressed/annoyed about the suing, scars, and routine of treatments = stopped electro

-learned about how the hair doesn’t have to be instantly treated weekly to be completely destroyed and now wondering how I can convince my electrologist to at least test it when I’m ready and find ways to be more efficient

Voilà !

#19

yes, but you have missed the part about hairs being able to be killed in ANY STAGE OF HAIR GROWTH.
Listen, Michael, and another friend Josepha, work identically. They work towards something called the 3 clearance method ( this is for body work not faces, but the principle holds the same ( there’s just more folicles and more cycles of growth on the face) .The idea is this, they work an area in short order and CLEAR the entire area. All the hair. Catogen, telogen early anogen, if its a hair, its dead! Now, they do this 4 months apart 3 times. When they are done, there is NO MORE HAIR ( or very minimal hair) . There’s even evidence such a strategy could work with faces.
Now, I want you to think about this. If only hairs in “early anogen” as you say are killed, how is what Michael and Josepha doing, in any way statistically possible? The answer is, it ISNT! All stages of hair, the hair follicle can be disabled. We are not treating the hair, it’s removed from the follicle anyway, we are putting our energy into the HAIR FOLLICLE and destroying the germination cells present primarily in the bulge. This hair itslf, is inconsequential. It is not a living thing past the root it just a collection of dead keratine. The follicle is the thing!
It sounds like you still could do better and may still be looking for the electrologist to take you there… If the electrologist you are seeing will only target hair as you suggest then she’s missing a whole lot of follicles. You should look elsewhere if possible.
Yes, I remember your story, but I answer gosh a ton of questions every week and treat a clietele besides. It’s hard to remember whos who and their story sometimes. I might be getting old.

Seana

#20

-I know that now (about any stage), as there’s alarming evidence on this forum + LOGIC vs hearsay

-she targeted all the hairs and cleared the entire area weekly

-treated area = https://imgur.com/a/pIwcM

-other side (nearly untreated area) in comparison = https://imgur.com/a/dYvnS

-looks pretty much done (and it is), but you can’t see finer/transparent/blond hairs in the pics

-cost/effectiveness for 37h (over 8 months)= 1500$ USD

-cost/effectiveness in comparison with you, Michael or Josepha = ?