Thank you dfahey for your input.
Please allow me to recall the situation, the discussion started from that thermolysis is basically the same as Laser. Since the original poster does not have good response with Laser, I kindly suggested galvanic.
Am I not allowed to point out the disadvantage of instant gratification?
Talk about post-jacking. A good thermolysis electrologist can clear underarms in a very short time (5 to 10 hours over 12 months) with little to no follow up, and deliver 100% total hair removal AND with the extra added bonus of no regrowth and do it for the same cost, or less than LASER, whereas reputable LASER practitioners tell you that they can REDUCE the number of hairs you have, and the thickness of them to a point, and then you have to “Finish Up With ELECTROLYSIS”. Most people who do this come to me and very quickly realize that they would have saved money had they just done electrolysis with me to begin with. Are some areas stuck with slow electrologists who can’t deliver on that level? Yes. Is that the rule? No.
Ants, you may disagree with me all you want, Thermolysis and LASER treatment are NOT the same thing. It is ignorance to argue that they are. The fact is that as much as you THINK you know about this, you don’t know more than me on this subject, and you have proven yourself unwilling to even see what is plain to most who pay attention. Come back when you have cleared a few faces with electrolysis, LASER, or by waving your magic wand, and you will understand how this works in the real world a little better. You only point out your ignorance further when you say things like “Thermolysis REQUIRES 500 hours and up to achieve permanence on a face.” I only respond to things like this anymore because I would hate for someone to read your posts and actually believe that you know what you are talking about.
I don’t know the multi-probe galvanic operator who has achieved a consistent speed greater than 100 hairs per hour. If you know of such a person, please forward the name and contact information and I will see to it that a lecture at the next American Electrolysis Association Convention is set up pronto!
The text books say that a normal man has 100 hairs per square inch or 2.54 centimeters. Most men only grow hair over about 25 square inches (63.5 centimeters) of skin. Now my clients average 250 to 500 hairs per inch, but lets go with 100 since we are talking THEORY here. If this textbook person came to my office, I would get to first clearance in 5 hours, and could finish to total permanence in 20 hours spread out over 12 months and 4 appointments, while enjoying at least 3 weeks without hair after each appointment.
Most people, however, like to stop shaving as soon as they get first clearance, and want electrolysis to be their only form of hair removal. A person doing Electrolysis only would come in for 5 hours, and then see me for 2 hours or less every week for the first 6 weeks or less. Then they would see me for an hour to 90 minutes every 2 weeks followed by 2 hours or less every 3 to 6 weeks, and we would be done in 9 to 12 months. Treatment time would be about 65 hours or less.
Now lets leave theory and see some real people. I have a client who is in the 250 and under class. This person doesn’t come in on schedule enough to get to the point of 100% kill rate because some of the hairs fall out of phase before we get another appointment, but even with that, we have removed 25,000 hairs in 50 hours spread out over 30 appointments in 7 months. We have the face so advanced in treatment that it is cleared every time we do meet, and the only thing that has never had full clearance is the neck area. That is because the client has reached “pacifaction” so long ago. The success on the mask area so far exceeded the expectation that the client doesn’t care to be aggressive on the part of the body that is deemed less important here. Even with all this, we will be finished long before anyone breaths the thought of 500 hours worth of work.
Now for a hard job.
I have a client who had hair growing from just below the eyes down through the neck and joined both the chest line and hair line on the sides. This client had hair counts of 400 to 500 hairs per square inch all over that area. The total treatment area far exceeded the 25 square inch “normal” benchmark. This client too did not come in on the most aggressive treatment schedule, and even took off months at a time, but we still finished up 271,000 hairs in 157 visits and 250 hours spread out over 3 years. In this case, most of the time was spent in a situation where no one would have seen any noticeable hairs for 3 weeks or more after treatment anyway, so the client felt more than happily “Pacifacted” from a very early stage.
Most electrologists who don’t have computerized machines that count insertion don’t know what their capabilities are any more than you can theoretically guesstimate what we can theoretically do, but the variations between available skill, speed, and post treatment irritation vary so wildly across the board that it is hard to speak to the difference between what is available at an electrologist near you, and what is available throughout the world of electrolysis. I am always saying how it is useless for me or Fino or anyone else to tell you what we are capable of doing, or what we have done on one particular person unless you are having treatment with us. Even then, your situation will have factors effecting treatment that alter your possibilities even with us.
Are there electrologists who are so slow, and using machines so ancient that 500 hours of thermolysis to clear a face is all they can do? I am sure of it. Are all electrologists limited to this like gravity? Absolutely not!
Can electrolysis damage the elasticity of the skin? Sure, if the skill of the electrologist is low, and/or the machine used is only capable of treating 4 hairs per square inch without grave tissue injury. I would ask Ants about what tissue damage LASER does, but he believes there to be none.
An electrologist utilizing the latest in Electrolysis and vision equipment, a high level of skill, and a great speed won’t leave you looking like Jack Nicholson as The Joker from The Batman Movies.
Seriously, there are lots of things that someone reading this whole post string can see where Ants is so busy trying to discredit me, as if this is something personal, that he doesn’t even see how he is totally arguing around the point. I just won’t bother with the Quote vs Response method of showing these. I would rather spend my time giving the public facts they can use. Those who can’t find these inconsistencies on their own, well, let the scammers take the hindmost.
I started with my kindly suggestion that multi-probe galvanic should be used instead of thermolysis. Followed by main reason both thermolysis and Laser are based on heating hair follicles.
Can electrolysis damage the elasticity of the skin?
I was comparing thermolysis and galvanic.
Collagen can ge easily destroyed by heat, and thermolysis’ low killing rate (high-regrowth rate), it requires a number of re-inserting of probes to each follicle. High frequency would simply result heat, and heat would destroy hair follicle as well as collagen.
I would ask Ants about what tissue damage LASER does, but he believes there to be none.
I said, due to repeating insertion of probes, collagen would easily get destroyed when compared to multi-prove galvanic method.
I am not arguing LASER is better in this thread at all. Merely pointing out why multi-probe galvanic is better.
Seriously, there are lots of things that someone reading this whole post string can see where Ants is so busy trying to discredit me, as if this is something personal, that he doesn’t even see how he is totally arguing around the point. I just won’t bother with the Quote vs Response method of showing these. I would rather spend my time giving the public facts they can use. Those who can’t find these inconsistencies on their own, well, let the scammers take the hindmost.
By no intention to discredit you, Mr Walker. You have plenty of supporters here.
However, what’s your points to tell go to LASER section and discredit LASER almost completely?
The real disadvantage of thermolysis over multi-probe galvanic were not available OR can’t be found easily. As for the sack of different information and other facts to public, I risk myself of being a public enemy by providing a few information some electrologists don’t want people to know.
And since I receive no questions on the time required for full facial hair removal (200 to 300 hours with multi-probe galvanic electrolysis vs 500 hours and more with thermolysis) I take that as accurate. And hence it is safe to recommend if people want to save time and money, people should forgo instant gratification.
I just don’t know where you are coming from ants. Do you really think electrologists are really trying to hide something negative about thermolysis from the public for the sake of instant gratification? If you think this, then we have all done a great job deceiving the public for over the 60 years that thermolysis has been in use. This is a great modality for hair removal and you really shouldn’t scare and confuse consumers with your limited understanding of modern proceedures and equipment available to electrologists in 2005. Again, all three modalities work and all three modalities can destroy too much collagen and elastin (yes, even galvanic) if used improperly by an idiot electrologist.
Does your electrologist only do mulitple needle galvanic and are you getting your electrolysis ‘education’ from his or her side of things.
I just don’t get your angry tone all the time. What’s up with that?
I apologise if my tone has been offensive to some. Surprisingly when I post something not in the favour of thermolysis, I received so many attack from those performing thermolysis. So I can’t say any fact that’s negative to the thermolysis? OR I can’t highlight the advantage of galvanic?
There are some biased postings here if you check old posts.
I also apologise if I scared any consumers.
However, there were unfair and biased information about LASER. Didn’t those information do the same thing to scare people off?
As for hiding something negative about thermolysis (when compared to galvanic)? Well, they just don’t bother to provide such information. In order to balance up the negative information about Laser, I had to post some facts that a few electrologists do not like to hear.
As for me knowledge? I believe I have better background in electronics and laser physics than most electrologists. My electrolysis knowledge? I can read, and I know where to get reliable information.
Edit, adding more information
I just don’t realise why I can’t post things against the mainstream?
What’s wrong with suggesting galvanic over thermolysis? Or what’s wrong with comparing galvanic and thermolysis with facts those mainstream posters don’t usually mention?
I feel some people are setting up the situation as I am ruining the thermolysis business.
This is for the girl who originally posted about underarms. I just wanted to follow up. About 6 weeks ago I had my underarms cleared. There was still some hair there actually but it’s kind of hard to tell bcs just starting out you’re removing so much it gets a little red and irritated. I had them done again last week. Whereas the first time it took about 2 hours and 15-30 mins., this time it took an hour. She didn’t QUITE finish one side but there is very little left and she is finishing it up this Wednesday. I used LMX and she used Flash Thermolysis only. My first experience was kind of bad overall and VERY painful. This time was painful but I think my perception influenced that. It was bearable for sure though. Also, my underarms were only sore for about a day or so this time whereas last time I didn’t put deoderant on them for a week and kept applying aloe and stuff like that the whole time bcs they were so irritated.
Thank You for keeping us informed, and not abandoning this post thread. If you keep us informed on your journey, we will at least have documented here one person’s time to completion, and how the treatment holds up a year and 2 years later.
On behalf of everyone here, thank you.
Thanks for sharing your story, jessie! How often are you going back for maintenance in that area? Do you think every 2 weeks is OK? I’d like to start spending more time in other areas, like bikini.
Had my 2nd treatment last Friday and it went great - the pain was more tolerable than it was the first time, and we really made noticeable progress. My electrologist thinks it’ll only be another 30 to 45 minutes on each underarm before it’s clear, which will leave us at the upper end of James’s 90-180 minute estimate. But like I said, nearly every hair under there is a double. She showed me two that came out together, still wrapped in a single waxy bulb like twins. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />
Hello, glad you could benefit from the info. What I plan on doing is basically playing it by ear. I just started seeing this electrologist and she uses only Flash Thermolysis. This last time in one hour, she finished the right underarm and did my breasts and my lower abdomen. My abdomen had been cleared about 3 times already (roughly once a month). The Flash is so much faster and also seems to leave less scabs (I noticed this in the abdomen area) so I think I am going to leave my other electrologist (even though I like her very much) bcs she only uses blend on my face for the most part). So now what I plan on doing is making a two hour appointment weekly, one hour for face and one hour for body. My upper lip, chin, and brows are moving a LOT slower bcs I have been working on them for three months so I figure now there will be time to work on my cheeks and sideburns (A LOT of fine blonde hair). She recommended just working on it an hour at a time so as not to just go to war on my face. So the second hour I am reserving for body. I think I might wait about 8 weeks this time for the underarms, last time it was 6. But then again, since they are THE most painful area for me personally, I might get them as a little bit grows in so I don’t have to sit through more than 30 minutes or so on them. The main thing I would like to point out is how much I like the Flash! It’s pretty comfortable, FAST, and seems to leave little to NO scabbing. My electrologist has about 30 years of experience though, 10 with Flash. So I’m sure that has a lot to do with it. I NEVER feel plucking and the regrowth rate looks good so far, as in comparable to Blend. My body hair has always grown VERY slow but unfortunately there is too much of it! Good luck on your underarms, I would recommend getting them cleared first and then going back when there is a decent amount of hair to justify a treatment, but not so much that you feel like you’re starting from square one. That will keep you on top of it!
hey thanks for the info jessie.
i was wondering if you’re by chance located in michigan, and hopefully that’s where you get treated. i’m looking for a recommended person in the michigan area. let me know if anyone knows anyone in this area. good luck jessie with everything sounds like it’s going great for you : )
I’m really sorry but I am in the northern virginia area. I wish I could help you! have you tried this site?
http://www.electrolysisreferral.com/
There are a bunch more listings on the internet that were posted awhile back somewhere on the forum. I hope you find someone you’re happy with, good luck!
But like I said, nearly every hair under there is a double. She showed me two that came out together, still wrapped in a single waxy bulb like twins. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />
I’m male, and lots of my underarm hairs are doubles,also. I didn’t realize that happens to women as well! It makes them much more prone to ingrowth, etc, and is one reason I wish to get my armpit hair removed for good. I get doubles on my chest and abs, too, where the hair also is relatively thick. I wonder what causes that, did you ask?
Although some hair could double on its own, most doubling is from friction or other situations leading to hairs being pulled out repeatedly. Because of this tendancy for friction to pull hairs out and cause doubling, many people have doubles on the lower legs from their sock elastic, underarms, which rub against themselves, and clothing. Some people get doubling in the area of their waistbands as well. Women who wear full pantyhose can get them from waist to toes.
Ok, at long last, I am going to attempt to put this here, now that our dear Ants is back, and can look this over himself.
First I would like to say that I have stated that most men having thermolysis would achieve permanent hair removal in less than 300 hours if they had a decent electrologist and actually kept a better than casual event schedule so many times that I did not know that I was expected to rebutt Ant’s assertion that 500 hours was a reasonable average for thermolysis beard removal. Since I have done it in under 200 hours regularly for years, it just did not seem something I had to rebuff.
Many eyes will glaze over, but here is what a local science teacher had to say about the question of the disagreement Ants and I have had over both thermolysis method electrolysis (also known as Diathermy) and LASER being the same thing.
My apologies on the places where I have had to cobble together a way of showing scientific notations on a forum that is not set up to do so. I have done the best I can to recreate what he wrote. Any errors are my errors in translating hand written prose from a Doctor of Science (You know those doctors handwriting) and the limits of trying to make scientific notation understandable in typed form with no special function keys.
People seem enamored with the prospect of LASER Hair Removal. They are lead to believe that it is quicker and cleaner But is it better? That is the question that needs to be considered.
As a basic starting point, all methods utilize wave energy that is in the electro-magnetic spectrum. High school physics tells us that the wave speed will be the product of the wave length and the frequency of the wave (velocity = wavelength multiplied by frequency). Any wave in the Electro-Magnetic Spectrum (E&M) travels at the speed of light ( 299,792,458 metres per second usually rounded up to 3.0 x 10 to the 8th power m/s in scientific notation) This means that radio waves and light waves move at the same rate. (we might say, score one for Ants here)
The energy of a wave is based on the frequency of the wave as shown here, Energy = Plank’s Constant times frequency. In this equation, Plank’s constant is valued at 6.67 x 10 to the negative 34th power Joule-seconds. The claim that LASER Hair Removal is using more energy is a sure thing since LASERS have a shorter wavelength and a higher frequency when compared to radio waves. (score one for James)
Looking at this mathematically, we can compare actual amounts of energy that is received for the combination of Thermolysis/Galvanic method at pulse with a frequency of approximately 3.0 x 10 to the 6th power Hz is used, giving us :
E= hf
E= (6.67 x 10 to the negative 34th power Joule-seconds) (3.0 x 10 to the 6th power Hz)
E= 2.001 x 10 to the negative 28th power Joules
For the LASER treatment, use an average frequency of 1.7x 10 to the negative 15th power Hz and you get:
E= hf
E= (6.67 x 10 to the negative 34th power Joule-seconds) (1.7x 10 to the negative 15th power Hz)
E= 11.339 x 10 to the negative 19th power Joules
11.339 x 10 to the negative 19th power Joules = 1.1339 x 10 to the negative 18th power Joules
To compare the results:
LASER over Electrolysis
1.1339 x 10 to the negative 18th power Joules Divided by 2.001 x 10 to the negative 28th power Joules = .57 x 10 to the 10th power
This means that LASER is utilizing 5.7 x 10 to the 9th power more energy.
For those who did not take math or science past the school minimums, (or who just don’t want to work out the problem) that is 5,700,000,000 times more power in a LASER Hair Removal Treatment than in an electrolysis treatment.
Now this brings us to the question, where is all this energy going? It is being sent into your skin! Your body absorbs this energy somehow. Remember, moving down the spectrum a little farther from LASERs we find another Electro-Magnetic (EM) device that most of us are very familiar with … the microwaves of the eponymous ovens. It is easy to see that if you pour enough energy into this equation and you will cook your flesh.
Does this bridge the gap in the communications we have been attempting to have Ants? It seems to me that saying they are the same thing is like saying that a tricycle and the Concord are the same thing. They are both a way to get from one point to another, but… well, you know.
As it pertains to underarms, the lymphatic system has very important parts under the underarms, and the immune system is vulnerable from that point. This is one reason it is often recommended that people stay away from putting aluminum products (like anti-perspirants) on the skin of the underarms. Many believe that is connected to the rash of breast cancer since the advent of anti-perspirants.
I think taken as a whole, neither one is “healthy”. the healthiest thing is to not remove the hair permanently, not shave, and not use anti-perspirant. the same question can be asked of electrolysis. Where does the heat that is not absorbed or doesn’t kill a hair go? where does the liquid used in other methods go? that’s not healthy either. the skin doesn’t absorb the laser energy and nothing in the system that is not DARK doesn’t absorb it either, since this specific laser beam is only attracted to things that have DARK pigment. i guess my point is that people will do whatever it takes to look and feel better, including such things as using tanning salons etc. The only thing that will help you avoid all potential risks with anything that removes these “natural” things in the body which are not “accepted” is not doing anything at all. and I think most people here looking for resolutions to life-long problems don’t care about the potential unproven risks because the problems outweigh them, especially if they’re not deadly.
VillageGirl,
If you’ve found a good electrologist - stick with the program!
It takes a lot of patience. I’ve had both laser and electrolysis on the underarms (I got my whole body done FYI). I got cleared with short wave electrolysis.
From what I hear from a few electrologists and laser practitioners, a woman’s underarms is one of the few places that a real laser (not IPL or other non-laser light methods) might has a shot at being effective, provided you have dark hair and fair skin. Also, prices for the underarms are relatively inexpensive (I dunno, say, $100-$150 per treatment, say 8-10 treatments required).
But … electrolysis WORKS and is a sure thing for the money you are going to plunk down. Give it some time and keep at it - weekly visits are best. You will see improvement, but it takes time and dedication.
-real sore
also, if you’d like to promote exfoliation and help prevent ingrowns hairs in the area, i’d strongly suggest trying a roll-on product called “PFB.”
It is similar to a product called Tendskin, but has a few more ingredients, smells better, and comes in a more convenient roll-on applicator (perfect for underarms).
I like this product better than tendskin.