Treatment journal

Hair Removal Methods Professional Electrolysis
#1

After many, many hours reading old threads and material posted here (many thanks to Bono, Reina, Fahey, and so on), I figured I’d add my experience to the pile.

I am in Ohio, USA, but too far from Columbus to enlist Fahey. Alas!

I have thick, curly, auburn facial hair. My original plan was to start with laser and move to electrolysis to treat the rest of it, but I underestimated just how red (and thus untreatable by laser) my facial hair is. From my research at the time, I understood that there was no good laser for red hair, and my consultation with Ideal Image confirmed this fact.

I started electrolysis on 2015-08-06. I had swelling and leaking blood plasma/serum, but nothing major until my 8th session on 2015-09-25. I suspected the leaking yellow stuff was blood serum and/or interstitial fluid (lymphatic fluid) before, but had no solid facts until I read Avito’s thread.

I have incomplete data on the settings used in my treatment. I plan on adding missing data in my next session. I am measuring insertions manually with a handheld clicker as the electrologist works, so these are only approximations. I suspect I have around 100 2-hour sessions (i.e., 200 hours) worth of work to clear my facial hair. If this is executed weekly and I consistently hit the optimal timeslots, this will obviously take about 2 years. It will take longer if I have many shorter timeslots, assuming they are paced at 1 session per week (this might increase). I don’t know if the office I’m going to will do sessions longer than 2 hours, but I plan on asking in my next session.

Due to slow coverage (by my limited knowledge of typical operation speed), I am using longer sessions initially to get those follicles into anagen. The office charges at fixed points on a non-linear scale. The best timeslots are 85min at $105 ($1.235/min) and 120min at $154 ($1.283/min). In this scale, the 85min timeslot is the cheapest, but the overhead in travel makes shorter timeslots less efficient. If my estimate is correct, it will cost around $16,250. My primary electrologist operates at around 250 - 300 insertions per hour, so this would amount to 25,000 - 30,000 insertions.

I was using isopropyl alcohol initially after treatment to prevent infection. I’ve not had an infection nor ingrown hairs (yet), and stopped using isopropyl alcohol after the 4th session (2015-09-01). My electrologists use isopropyl alcohol immediately before treatment, and typically aloe vera gel (impure) after treatment.

After my 2015-09-25 session, I was looking into self-treatment. Paying merely $2,000 to upstart that prospect (with a refurbished A.R. Hinkel UC-2 or UC-3 at $950 - $1350) sounded like a grand idea, but facial hair appears to be (in my research) one of the most difficult areas to self-treat. Alas! Treating from home sounds so much more pleasant than a near-2-hour commute (there and back) per session. In the meanwhile, I’m doing my research. I’m going through Bono’s book excerpts, and Gior’s Modern Electrology is on my desk just begging to be read.

Here’s the log so far. Frame-peripheral wounds/redness in photographs are mostly other skin conditions (acne, compulsive picking, etc.). In subsequent sessions, I will be more vigilant about treatment variables and photographs post-treatment.

[size:20pt]Session: 2015-08-06[/size]

Area: mustache
Needle: F3S, Short?
Parameters: ?, blend
Duration: 30m
Insertions: ?

I consulted the electrologist and used the remaining time to have test treatment. I believe they quoted a year for treatment of the facial hair. This seems unlikely!

I had some swelling, but neglected to note whether I had any leaking plasma.

[size:20pt]Session: 2015-08-13[/size]

Area: mustache
Needle: F3S, Short?
Parameters: ?, blend
Duration: 1h
Insertions: ~190
Post-treatment: isopropyl alcohol (initial), Neosporin/generic cream (primary), aloe vera gel.

I neglected to log my reaction.

[size:20pt]Session: 2015-08-20[/size]

Area: mustache
Needle: F3S, Short?
Parameters: ?, blend
Duration: 1h25m
Insertions: ~309
Post-treatment: ice (initially), isopropyl alcohol (initially), witch hazel (primary), raw aloe vera, Neosporin.

Swelling and leaking plasma.

[size:20pt]Session: 2015-09-01[/size]

Area: mustache + chin
Needle: F3S, Short?
Parameters: ?, blend, lowered
Duration: 1h25m
Insertions: ~407
Post-treatment: isopropyl alcohol (initial), witch hazel (primary), raw aloe vera, Neosporin.

Swelling and leaking plasma.

10h post treatment, untouched

[ul]
[li]right chin, plasma leakage
[/li][/ul]

59h post treatment, Neosporin

Developing scabs. Dermal/epidermal damage?

[ul]
[li]front chin
[/li][li]left chin
[/li][li]right chin
[/li][/ul]

124h post treatment, shaved

Scabs have formed. Shaved carefully. Note how the scabs are heavier on the right side. I suspect this is due to treatment angle, but it could simply be that the electrologist adjusted their approach on the left side in response to the reaction on my right.

[ul]
[li]front chin
[/li][li]left chin
[/li][li]right chin
[/li][/ul]

[size:20pt]Session: 2015-09-10[/size]

Area: chin
Needle: F3S, Short? / F3G, Short?
Parameters: ?, blend, lowered again
Duration: 1h30m
Insertions: ~34 (F3S) / ~247 (F3G)
Post-treatment: ice (initial), witch hazel (primary), raw aloe vera, Neosporin.

Switched to a gold needle part-way through. The electrologist also spent more time on each hair and tried to be gentler. Swelling reaction was significantly reduced, but still present. I also still had leaking plasma, but less than last time, and only on the right side of my chin (the side the electrologist was facing). I suspect this is due to insertion angle, though I am unsure.

4.5h post treatment, several hours after witch hazel & Neosporin

[ul]
[li]front chin
[/li][li]left chin
[/li][li]right chin
[/li][/ul]

[size:20pt]Session: 2015-09-15[/size]

Area: mustache
Needle: F5G, Short?
Parameters: ?, blend
Duration: 1h
Insertions: ~219
Post-treatment: ice (initial), witch hazel, raw aloe vera, Neosporin.

The electrologist moved up to a size 5 needle. I am not sure if this was matched to the size of my hair. From the electrologist’s perspective, the reaction was better. They have a harder time inserting this size into the follicle, however.

2h post treatment, hours after ice and Neosporin

[ul]
[li]front-left
[/li][li]front-right
[/li][/ul]

[size:20pt]Session: 2015-09-21[/size]

Area: chin
Needle: F5G, Short?
Parameters: HF: “45” (unknown unit), DC: 0.5mA (guessing unit)
Duration: 1h
Insertions: ~263
Post-treatment: witch hazel.

Only swelling this session, but no leaking plasma, as far as I can recall.

5.5h post treatment, hours after witch hazel, immediately after dabbing down with hot water

[ul]
[li]front chin
[/li][li]left chin
[/li][li]right chin
[/li][/ul]

18h post treatment

[ul]
[li]front chin
[/li][li]left chin
[/li][li]right chin
[/li][/ul]

83h post treatment

Note scabbing on right side of chin.

[ul]
[li]front chin
[/li][li]left chin
[/li][li]right chin
[/li][/ul]

[size:20pt]Session: 2015-09-25[/size]

Area: chin
Needle: F5G, Short?
Parameters: HF: “45”, DC: 0.5mA
Duration: 1h
Insertions: ~319
Post-treatment: petroleum jelly (primary), raw aloe vera, witch hazel.

This session is with another electrologist in the same office.

They are using the same settings as in the previous session, but their technique is much more aggressive. It is a very painful session, whereas previously the only noticeable pain I had was on the upper mustache – and this is worse than that! I could fall asleep with my primary electrologist, if our sessions were long enough. I have immense swelling, and plasma is dripping from my chin immediately after treatment.

It was very upsetting.

The first electrologist I started with treats a single follicle at a time by inserting, applying blend, removing the needle, and then removing the hair. The second electrologist (which did this session) inserts and plucks hairs from the follicles they treated just before. As a result, the needle is pressed into the body (breaching the bottom of the follicle, I suspect) without stabilization of the skin around it. The first electrologist uses their fingers to stretch and adjust the skin, and holds the skin in position as follicles are treated.

I believe the intense swelling reaction in this session is wholly due to the electrologist’s technique. Moving to the underside of the chin might be a factor, but I doubt it. It is barely down from where we treated previously on the chin. I confirmed with the electrologist part-way through the session that they were using the same settings as my previous session.

Swelling lasted for more than a week. I went through a scabbing phase, but it all cleared up, and now I’m only left with redness where the treatment was done. I used petroleum jelly (Vaseline) to keep the area from moist.

I neglected to take pictures of the healing. The photographs below don’t really show how bad it was. I will be sticking to the first electrologist for future sessions.

5h post treatment

[ul]
[li]front chin
[/li][li]left chin
[/li][li]right chin
[/li][/ul]

482h (20 days) post treatment

[ul]
[li]front chin
[/li][li]left chin
[/li][li]right chin
[/li][/ul]

#2

Hi Hairasunder,

That is a very complete and well thought out treatment journal! Thank you! What you have accumulated here is a most comprehensive chunk of information on your treatment. I did notice that the observations get more detailed the further you go in, presumably when you started to see some negative effects ( the plasma leakage? ) you started keeping track of these details. This is pretty common, people dont take "before and after " pictures, they tend to get “Part way through to show a skin manifestation, and after” photos. Still a very good job accumulating this much information and it will make it much easier to provide any advice you need on the basis of this journal. I would like others who are considering, or just starting electrolysis, to take note as well. This is exactly the type of journal that from a treatment advice perspective, can make all the difference in the world. We also as electrologists, should be keeping exactly the same kind of notes for every session, as part of a clinical record. It just makes life so much easier when we have all the pieces of information to go on.

I’m just going to comment on a couple of things I see you comment on and perhaps some aspects where more or less information is warranted, as you dont seem to ask any “questions” that we can answer for you.

First I have a question I have for you, is do you happen to know what the brand and or model of machine that has been used on you is?

Second question, when you looked at the controls to determine the amount of galvanic and thermolysis being used, could you tell us anything more about what you saw? Was this a “computerized” display or seemingly controlled by two dials? Did it have any other “words” on the display such as Omniblend, multiplex, flash, or pico? Were there other “numbers” which you didnt jot down such as timimg in seconds or part thereof? Do you happen to have any kind of rough estimate of how long the current was applied for? Was there any preset numbers, example 38?

One of the reasons client accounts of treatment figures are really hard to go by, is some of the numbers presented on an electrolysis machine are pretty hard to go by. Each machine , even within a brand and model, is calibrated independently. Things like timing , are often lost. I’ll give an example of this.

45% intensity HF, using multiplex, over 1.5 seconds with 0.50 ms galvanic is approximately the setting I would use to perform " fast blend" which is on the “experimental” side of the electrolysis I do. I would say , on average that these settings are on the HIGH side, and so I am very careful with them at this intensity. I would expect, that occasionally such a setting would give some blanching of the skin, or plasma leakage afterwards, on at least 2 different clients. On another machine by a different manufacturer, maybe using some form of pico or omniblend, these settings might be just spot on the money. So, when it comes to determining settings and comparing them, often the devil is in the details. Sometimes we are comparing apples, oranges and lemons .The practising electrologist is the best judge of settings and calibration of the machine that they have. I think if you are going to keep track however, a picture of the display may give you a better idea than anything else. There are users of the Hinkel machines here that can give input ( yup I’m thinking of you Bono) or of Apilus equippment ( at least half the board I should think?) but not if the information is incomplete.While I think you have done a FABULOUS job of tracking these details, I wanted to let you know what other things you can keep track of to make a determination.

Regarding your hesitancy ,and information gathering on self-performed electrolysis on the face, I just wanted to pass on a few words of wisdom and advice.I am, probably, the best known and most comprehensive DIY’er known to this board , for doing exactly that. So I have a few words of wisdom to pass on that have helped me immensely along the way.

First, in regards research material, one of the better sources I have found for physiology and electrolysis techniques is “Milady’s Hair Removal Guide” written by Helen Bickmore. Some of the electrologists I work and consult with have found value in Bono’s guide to the blend

From a DIY’er standpoint, I have seen spouted here a lot of condemnations of attempting to do DIY on the face. I did exactly that, successfully. I will say that I dont think an extensive knowledge of follicle and skin physiology is really completely necessary to begin this process. The basics sure, but muc of your technique is determined by your own ability to see the follicle, and manual dexterity. I think it took me a few weeks to get my technique pretty much down pat, then it took me several months to get really good at it. There’s a lot of information on here about having to use “reversed movements in a mirror” butI can tell you that this comes very naturally after a brief period.

The biggest obstacle, and thing which must be learned in any DIY project ( be it the face or any other part of your body, is ergonomics. I struggled for a while getting this right, and eventually found the best way to treat my face was lying on my back on a bed, leg over the side to manipulate the pedal with a magnification mirror suspended close above me from the ceiling. I dont endorse trying to lean over to look into a magnifying mirror. It will absolutely kill your back.

Regarding probes, and “model and size” of probe, these model descriptors, just like your car, differ from maker to maker. For example F3S on a precision probe would indicate that it’s a size f3 probe “short”. The same code on a sterex probe might indicate this is a F3 probe manufactured of stainless steel. So identifying the manufacturer of probe might help you make more sense .

Regarding probe size, yes many electrologists are taught to match the size of the hair with the probe size. That said however many electrologists have found that they get a better distrubution of Hight Frequency ( thermolysis ) energy the larger the probe is in size. It does become easier to insert such a large probe into aq follicle if the magnification being used to see the follicle is sufficient. This is why you will see so many electrologists using medical microscopes to see their subject matter. I have no froblem inserting a f5 or f6 probe into a follicle with my 6 diopter circle lamp, some may need better magnification than that. But a probe larger than the hair size is not really a problem in my opinion, and often electrologists will use the largest probe they are able to insert, regardless of hair size.

When it comes to Avito’s case, my opinion ( and some can shoot me for this, I dont care, it’s my opinion) is that we were diagnosing a probable case of overtreatment. Plasma leakage such as we see in yuor pictures, and hers, frankly are unnecessary, and I think too rough a treatment for the face. I disagree however that in your case it’s probably from puncturing the follicle bottom, I think this is from too much energy. The area both you and her seem to get this, is consistent with my experience on clients I have used a little too much thermolysis on when doing experimental fast blend. I can understand where an electrologist might be tempted to use high intensity blend to shorten treatment time, but a slower approach will do wonders for skin reaction and to limit after effects. Slow treatment is the domain of the DIY’er becase they have all the time in the world, and it’s less of an issue.This is one advantage that the DIY’er has over the professional who is charging 100 bucks an hour.

I’ll add more, when I think it through more, I have an appointment starting in 30 minutes, so I’ll have to set this comment aside for now.

Edit, In reviewing your last sset of pictures, is this still a small spot of plasma leakage we are seeing 20 days post treatment on your left ( right in the picture) side under the jawbone? It looks like there is some hyperpigmentation forming. 20 days is a bit long for this kind of swelling to stay.

Seana

#3

Ditto to everything Seana has said.

If I can remember back that far (when Lincoln was still president) … I was a DIYer too. You learn a LOT by doing this on yourself.

Still, I’m in shock on so many levels, re: your experiences. Eventually, I plan (hope to) put everything I’ve learned/know on Youtube (free). Remmber, that what I’ll be showing is ONLY what I’m doing … this is NOT the only way! Just take it as what it is. There are many many other excellent paths to doing electrolysis.

I will only say that any beard case should not exceed 100 hours total … And “double yikes” on the leakage. Still, leakage can happen and does not usually indicate any permanent problems whatsoever. I have a great case that I’ll be highlighting on Youtube. I’m just waiting for the full beard removal to be completed.

Show & Tell … it’s the best!

#4

Hi Hairasunder,
Firstly, WELL DONE on your research and journal keeping! I wish more clients bothered to do a bit of research before going for treatments that are unsuitable or having unreasonable expectations.
I agree on a few points with Seana.
I would like to make a couple of comments from my experience as professional electrologist.
The first thing I noticed is the needle size in the first few treatments. I was very happy to see this was changed to a larger probe later. I haven’t seen your hair in person, but red hairs tend to have a thick long inner root sheath around them and larger needles are more likely to disable the larger diameter of the follicle efficiently. They also reduce the pain factor for the client. A smaller needle is a hotter needle (therefore more painful) and builds narrower heating pattern. The lye in blend works efficiently within the heating pattern created by the HF. I have seen amazing improvement in hair release, pain tolerance and after treatment recovery just by switching needle size up. And you can clearly see the skin looking better after treatment since your electrologist did change.
The second thing, I would like to share my opinion on, is the effects on your skin. Considering you’re not doing full clearances in one sitting but go in often for a couple of hours or so, there is the scope to follow a more gentle strategy on the dense areas to prevent plasma leakage. It is just unnecessary, I think. I would go for evenly thinning the area first and reaching clearance over a few sessions. Looking at the last treatment photos, the area wasn’t thoroughly cleared, which is good, as the skin is clearly showing being unhappy with the treatment. The fact that you found it quite a bit more painful on the same settings, in sharp contrast with a number of previous treatments, and that your skin has reacted stronger, hints that maybe the insertions weren’t perfect. Electrolysis is all about the skill, so I would advise you stick with your original electrologist. Mind you, if any of my clients experience unwanted post-treatment effect, I want to be told about it. If I am not made aware of such outcome, how would I know I have done something wrong? So if you feel the last lady is open to discussion, share your experience and you may help her avoid losing her future clientèle.
Blend would also definitely be my choice of method your case. I like it best for coarse blond, grey and red hairs, as well as curvy and distorted roots.
With regards to you researching DIY electrolysis, I think you will be ok to do some areas, but others are really difficult to get it right in. Judging by your careful and thorough approach, you have what it is needed to learn. I do my lip and chin myself sometimes, but under my jaw line on the left side I find it impossible to get the insertion right. So I ask a colleague to do those patches for me.
Good luck with your journey and keep us updated please!

#5

Geri,

All well conceived points. I too cant really work well under the jawline, unfortunately the only "colleague " I have to help with this is my partner, who has limited time and inclination. But I agree on this posters thoroughness and attention to detail meaning they probably COULD do DIY with no issues.

Seana

#6

The redness 20 days post treatment is really quite shocking, it maybe the light flash. My treament stops being read after around an hour but can still look swollen on upper lip for a couple of hours but if I go in the morning for treatment I will go out the same night or even collect my kids from school and stand and chat with the other mums. It should’t be normal in my experience to have such redness. I have had the occasional white head or scap pop up a couple of days after in the treatment area not often but has happened and is normally gone after a week. I’m personally too scared to try out other electrolysis let alone DIY lol look for someone with plenty of experience who can get the treatment performed in the best time possible for you. DIY from other posts seems to be a long holed process and more chance of causing perm marks with inexperience.

#7

Thanks for the replies!

One thing I neglected to mention: I had done some research into electrology before my first session, and I decided it was best to start off with high parameters and lower them to find the sweet spot, instead of the other way around. This was predicated on accounts of poor treatment, wherein people still had hair despite many months (or even years) of treatment. This is certainly tipping the reaction scale over the edge.

Unfortunately, I can’t find a way to edit my posts, so I’ll probably migrate my journal to a permanent place, where I can update it at will.

EDIT: Hah, what irony. Looks like I can edit posts, just not the post that starts a thread.

[size:20pt]Seana[/size]

I did have questions, but answered the majority of them by reading the forum. I have surmised that my skin is naturally sensitive (i.e., this holds generally), and given accounts of redness, I expect it to subside.

I’m withholding subsequent questions until I have gathered all of the information I’m missing from the electrologist. I don’t want to jump to too many conclusions without the facts.

Unfortunately, no. This question is on the agenda.

I believe the device my primary electrologist uses is analog. I have a mental image of it. This image does not include a matrix display or similar hardware, though I would not be surprised if it, in fact, did. It is probably an older device. Fairly small, sits on a desk.

I did not look at the device itself to determine the parameters my electrologist was using, they just told me when I asked. This is again another question on the agenda. My primary electrologist applies current for about 10 seconds per follicle at this point, where we have reduced the parameters.

As such, I believe the device has no fancy business (i.e., the methods employed by newer modern devices). The second electrologist uses a different, larger device. I believe this one is computerized, but again I lack fact.

Oops, sorry about that confusion. I went by Sterex labels, but I don’t know what brand they’re using, let alone the shank type (though, F seems likely). Yet again, on the agenda.

I have read your previous posts, and what I gathered was that a lot of your facial treatment was done by your partner, as treating your face yourself proved too tricky. If there are threads that I have missed that prove otherwise, I would appreciate being pointed towards them.

I have too many uncertainties about this path to jump into it without fully understanding the process and difficulties. Thus far, I have formed an opinion that it is impractical for complete facial hair treatment.

Thanks for the recommendation. I was considering Bono’s book as well, but found Gior’s at a lower price, so that’s what I’m starting with.

I don’t disagree, but my approach to everything in life is to grasp comprehensive knowledge, even as the human elements get in the way and I disappoint my own ideology.

Expertise in many things can absolutely be formed merely on the basis of experience, but without patience and strong mental exploration, you can easily leave a wake of destruction and/or form bad habits along the way, with poor or malformed bases on reality. This is by no means an accusation or judgment of anyone, and isn’t specific to electrology, it’s just an observation.

I concur. My hesitance is primarily based on uncertainty of these variables. Not having a direct view on the area of treatment, where you could easily change your perspective to get a better understanding of the follicle, the hair, and the growth direction, must be a huge detriment.

I agree.

I will stand by my claim with a caveat, which is: there could certainly be a different answer once we know what devices (and thus treatment methods) were involved.

My current basis is thus: I had no plasma leakage with my primary electrologist once we had settled on lower treatment parameters and a gold needle (2015-09-21). Yes, I did have swelling, but no plasma, and nowhere near the amount of swelling I had on 2015-09-25 (with the second electrologist). It is possible the “same parameters” on two devices can differ significantly (due to the methods employed by the device), but I cannot discount difference in technique between the two electrologists. As technique is the most glaring difference to which I have actual concrete information on (namely, the feel of the technique and reaction), this is my basis.

I am prepared to be proven wrong, and welcome the prospect.

Nope, just a scab! The redness is just discoloration; swelling trailed off maybe around 2015-10-08 (13 days after treatment).

Thanks for the vote of confidence. I suppose this is where I had gone amiss: you only have trouble treating your chin?

If I knew anyone who wanted to dedicate some time and effort into proper treatment in trade for treatment, I would jump at this path without hesitation.

[size:20pt]Michael Bono[/size]

I am prepared for the worst! (And got it so far, in some form!) Like you, I overestimate :slight_smile:

Indeed, I have gathered that from discussion in Avito’s thread (and others).

Grand. Josefa’s videos and your video were enlightening.

[size:20pt]Geri Panayotova[/size]

Thanks. I do my best.

But, believe it or not, I am very disappointed in my lack of comprehension and detail during my journey thus far. Unfortunately, it took many, many hours of research (mostly on this forum) to fill in the holes in my knowledge. Electrology appears, to me, to have a giant gaping problem when it comes to informing we plebeians. I don’t mean to elevate myself (I hate pride), but the majority of people, in my observation, will not go to many of the lengths I go to for understanding, and as such will be at a great detriment when it comes to understanding the normals & abnormals of electrology.

I’m not certain about the inner sheath for my facial hair, but the worst are essentially the same coarseness as my pubic hair. I’ve noticed less resistance when shaving, but that could be due to my heightened care when shaving post-treatment.

I have read to this effect. I am curious if a tapered needle would be more appropriate, as I’ve read Bono and Reina praising Laurier’s needles, but I admit my knowledge here is very limited.

In my last session (2015-09-25), the electrologist moved around once they saw the plasma leakage (“you are having a significant reaction”, or thereabouts).

I find my primary electrologist more valuable. They did suggest thinning, but I countered that leaving the follicles we previously treated to potentially leave anagen could make full treatment take longer, and also that, given the change in parameters and my reduced reaction, it might not be necessary (2015-09-21, wherein there was no plasma). I admit this is my novice opinion, and I only discussed these points in a questioning manner, to coax the expertise and opinion of the electrologist. They did concur, but said they did not want to damage my skin. I am willing to acquiesce to this point in future sessions if they suggest it, given the concurrence on this aspect that I’ve seen since (your post being another point of data).

Indeed. My primary electrologist has 9 years of experience, and has been very coöperative. I know little about the second electrologist, but they seem more to the point, more “get 'er done”, rather than adaptive, but I have only had one session with them.

I did suspect the underside of the jaw/chin would be most difficult. It is a matter of what value I can extract in the prospect. If I could treat my mustache area and upper face well enough, it may prove valuable enough. I have considered becoming a professional electrologist, but I am not decided on this yet. It will be a long while for me to feel well-researched enough to make a principled decision.

Thanks, and I will!

[size:20pt]Helen1983[/size]

It is exacerbated by the flash, but it is still quite red.

#8

A lot of information to digest, and I will come back to this later to comment on some of the information you provided, but to clarify, no my partner didnt do most of the work on my face, I did. He just helps under the jawline where I cant see to insert at the correct angle actually very similar to what geri describes. Actually , that is the only area still incomplete, because he doesnt get to it very often.My face I did after many painstaking hours is complete these days.Most of it was done while staring into a 4 inch magnifying mirror.I understand the confusion though, that account has nearly 1000 posts and it would depend where you read through

As to the two electrologists doing equivelent work with totally different machines, these two machines as described would behave dramatically differently and the settings are not compatible in any manner. Totally different implementations of thermolysis, yielding different results, calibrated differently.

The gold probe and larger size is the right direction to be going. The hairs visible in some of the pictures are too large for using an f3 probe really I would go at them with at least a f4 or f5.

I’ll come back with more when I have more time

Seana