Third LightSheer Treatment: MALE FACIAL HAIR

Hair Removal Methods Laser hair removal
#1

Hello everyone.

I just had my THIRD treatment using the LightSheer laser yesterday. If you want specific information about my first and second treatments you can see my old posts (First LightSheer Treatment: MALE FACIAL HAIR from Dec 24, 2002 and Second LightSheer Treatment: MALE FACIAL HAIR from Feb 24, 2003).

Once again, this way I won’t have to repeat stuff and take up lots of unecessary space.

First of all I have a BIG correction to make. I was quizzing my doc and found out that ALL my treatments so far have been done at 30ms, not 100ms as I previously and thought (and posted). I assumed that he was using 100ms because when I talked to him on the phone the very first time (before I came in for my initial consultation), I told him I had “dark” skin and he told me for his “dark” skinned patients he usually puts the pulse width on 100ms. I guess he was thinking I was a type V or VI, but I am actually a type IV.

I looked at the fluence level on the machine and didn’t read the pulse width underneath (it was a few feet away and I don’t wear my glasses during the treatments because I had to wear the goggles to protect my eyes). I guess I just assumed. My bad . . . :slight_smile: . . . So for the sake of completeness and accuracy: ALL OF MY TREATMENTS HAVE BEEN AT 30ms SO FAR!!! Maybe I should post replies to my old messages to make sure that people reading them don’t get misinformed!

Anyway, it had been about two months since my last treatment (a couple of days less actually, but I wanted to have a Monday appointment because it’s easier to take off work).

After my second treatment, I started realizing that the laser would not work well to reduce/remove the hair between and around my eyebrows. The tip is simply too big and the laser energy is too spread out to work this area properly. I didn’t want to mess up my eyebrows because they are a really important facial feature (not just for “looks” but also in terms of expression and stuff). My jobs requires me to be somewhat “visible” and interact with people all the time (I work in the entertainment industry). So . . . I asked the doc not to worry about that area for the remainder of the treatments. I think I will get it done later using electrolysis. I’ve been told that with eyebrows one or two hairs here or there could really make a difference when it comes to hair removal, and I don’t want to “shape” the eyebrows, I just want to clean up some of the excess hair that is around them. Maybe even leave a “little” bit of hair in between the brows so that it looks natural. Anyway, if I do end up doing that, I will post it on this board in the electrolysis section. I don’t plan on even touching that area until I’m done with laser on/around my beard, so it may be a while!

Before the third treatmeant (which was yesterday, the one that this post is about), I noticed that some of the patches that were present after the first and second treatments were STILL there, especially under the chin. I asked the doc if he could do something about them, and he said that hopefully this time the higher fluence will start knocking them out a little better. Also, the chin and upper lips areas seemed hardly affected by the laser. The lower neck area had the best results, while the cheeks were somewhere in between. There was more “minatured” hair on the cheeks than on the other parts, but interspersed with the regular “thick” facial hair.

Also, I noticed that there were two spots that the doctor had zapped twice during the second treatment that were just a few millimeters above the mustache area that were completely bald. They were only a couple of millimeters in diameter, but that does say something about zapping hairs twice. Those spots “extended” a little into the upper lip area, and those were by far the biggest spots that were gone in the upper lip. There were a few tiny spots that were bald in the chin and upper lip, they were just tiny (literally a millimeter or something). Not as good as the neck or cheeks, but that is better than nothing and it definitely shows hope, right?

I used Emla cream for this treatment just like the first and second, except this time I used two 5g tubes and what was left of one of the 5g tubes . . . I would say 12g or so, and I definitely think it helped. I used most of it on the chin and upper lip and those areas were not as bad as the first or second time in terms of the pain.

It still hurt like hell though. I think the pain was less than last time (because of the extra Emla, and maybe because there was a little bit less hair, but mostly because of the extra Emla, I think). I still had to put an ice pack (with a towel around it) on it for a few minutes and drive home with the AC on full blast. I then sat in front of a fan for about an hour or two after I got home!

Oh yeah, the doc used 30J this time, and 30ms pulse width. He went up 3J from last time. So so far, if he keeps going up 2-3J every time it will look like this:

1st Treatment (Dec 24, 2002): 23J, 30ms
2nd Treatment (Feb 24, 2003): 27J, 30ms
3rd Treatment (April 21, 2003): 30J, 30ms
4th Treatment (not done yet): 32-33J, 30ms
5th Treatment (not done yet): 34-36J 30ms

I’ve paid for the package of 5, and touchups are $50 for every 15 minutes after that . . . I’m guess a touchup will run about 30 minutes or so . . . So every touch up is $100. If I’m lucky and the hair starts to get really sparse, it may be $50 a touchup, but I don’t think that will be the case until way later (if at all).

Oh yeah, and about the chart that I made above: I also don’t think he would go up in any bigger increments, because now we’re definitely above the “threshold” that some have talked about for ‘permanent’ reduction for my skin type, while also getting into the kinds of fluences that can cause scabbing and other nasty side effects (hypo/hyper pigmentation). . .

Also the doc pointed out that my skin was a little bit lighter this time that last. I attribute this my religious use of SPF 35 sunscreen EVERY DAY. Remember I’m a type IV and I tan very easily, so I wear the sun screen EVERY DAY regardless of what the weather is outside (even if I don’t plan on going outside).

The doc said that most of the people he has treated with my “Indian” skin type usually start scabbing around 27J, and he is suprised that I haven’t seen any yet (or not any that is significant enough to take notice . . . It’s hard to tell what is “scabbing” and what is just “burnt up” hair, I’m guessing what I’ve seen so far is just burnt up hair). I’m sure this is because of the sun screen. I’m in Southern California, and the sun is relentless here. I can already see that my arms (which I don’t put sunscreen on) are a couple of shades darker than my face.

I think I’m a ligher skinned then most other “Indian” people that I know but,I think the only reason I’ve responded with so “few” side effects is because of my use of sunscreen.

The doc mentioned that my beard was VERY dense and that it had not responded as well as many of his male facial hair patients, but also that I’ve been able to tolerate the higher fluences very well for someone with type IV skin, and that we would try to “get them all” eventually.

My face is red and looks swollen. Especially because I didn’t have the top of the head (above and between the brows) done, I can see how swollen the rest of my face is . . . The contrast is not even funny. It looks like my face just got fatter or something. Almost like a pear or something . . .

I hope that the redness goes away in a day or two, but until them I’m gonna try to stay away from social events.

There is a lot of burnt up hair on my face, but I think it’s a little bit less than last time.

More of the hair (especially on the chin and upper lip) seems to have spontaneously vaporized this time. A good sign.

I’ve got this feeling that I’m going to have to have a lot of treatments before this is all over with (certainly more than 5, maybe even 10 or 15 or more).

I guess we will see. . . I will keep posting my results . . . And I’ll let you guys know in a couple of days how the side effects are affecting me . . .

I’m in this for the long haul, and I have been pleased with the results so far. . . Before LHR, I was not able to shave regularly because my ingrown hairs were pretty bad. But after the LHR treatments shaving is pretty easy compared to before (well, I mean after the approximately two week hair regrowth and shedding stages that I have to go through after each treatment).

I just hope that the 30J fluence is gonna help. I really want them all gone. ALL of them, so I NEVER have to shave my face again. That is my eventual goal.

#2

I think you’ll get all of the hairs. It sounds like you have the patience and determination to get it done.

Good luck on the rest of your treatments.

RJC2001

#3

Okay . . .

So when I first woke up this morning and looked in the mirror I noticed some scabbing.

It’s on my cheeks and the lower part of my neck.

It’s not that deep at all. What I would call “superficial” scabbing. Not deep at all. I was able to rub off a small amount (a test spot, so to speak) with my fingers on my lower neck, but I’m not going to push it. From the looks of it, it should fall of in a day or two.

One thing that I don’t understand . . . Maybe RJC or Andrea can help answer this. But why is the scabbing not on my chin and upperlip (where there was the most hair to be treated).

Why is the scabbing on the parts like this lower neck where there was relatively little hair left before the treatment?

Does the laser get absorbed into the skin where there is no hair because of the fact that there is no hair to absorb the energy? Does the skin absorb the laser energy in these spots?

Let’s say hypothetically I had less hair on my chin before the treatment and was treated at the same level. Does that mean that there would be more scabbing there?

Basically, what I’m worried about is that I will have more scabbing after subsequent treatments, even if the hair is reduced at every treatment, not just because of the increase in energy but because of the decrease in hair (it won’t be there to absorb the energy, so the skin will absorb it instead)? Basically, what I’m saying is that I’ll have these side effects increase as the hair decreases, ya dig?

Anyway, the scabs are not that bad, the biggest ones are a 3-4 mm or so, and the smallest ones are tiny (these are the ones on the lower neck that I was able to “rub off” to reveal the clear skin underneath). Like 1 mm or even less, just like the burnt up hair spots, just a little bit “browner.”

Anyway, I’m not worried about these right now, but I am wondering if these will be a concern when even higher fluences are used . . .

I was thinking that eventually the fluences I would be using would be similar to what RJC used (40-45 J). Maybe not until I 've had a few more treatments, but way later (when there is only fine hair left) . . . I don’t think I would be at those fluences until around treatment 10 (if ever).

Anyway, I hope someone will help enlighten me about the “scabbing.”

#4

It has been 3 1/2 days or so after my third treatment.

I just shaved for the first time since the treatment (after taking a shower).

All of the “scabs” were removed during this process. Quite easily, too. I only went over the area with the razor once (with the grain, not against it) . . . used a Mach3.

I can see some spots on my chin that seemed to have been missed during this treatment, but I also saw a few more bald spots on the upper lip (upper right side) and on the chin.

A couple of the spots that are under the chin are gonna be really stubborn, I can tell . . . I’m gonna get to know those areas really well . . . I’ll have to point them out to the doc next time . . . I’ve got a feeling those are going to hold out till the end . . . but victory will be mine.

There is definitely gonna be some patching from this treatment, and it may actually “look” worse this time because it will be more a “broken up” set of patches around and under the chin area, but that is only because the treatment is progressing.

Looking at it more carefully, the chin seems to have responded much better than the upper lip in terms of hair removal. I guess that is to be expected, right?

But finally, there seems to be some serious progress . . . ! :slight_smile:

I can’t wait until my next treatment!!!@#

Zap

–
RAISING THE FLUENCE IN 2003.

#5

Just an update . . . It has been 8 days and the hairs on my chin and upper lip are just starting to shed a little bit . . .

The hair on the cheeks and neck fell out pretty quickly (it was “vaporized” for the most part during the treatment).

I think within a couple of days I should be able to “rub” them off in the shower pretty easily. Right now they are at a point where I could pull most of them out with a tweezer or my finger nails if I wanted to (they come of in groups of like 4 or 5 sometimes), but I’m just going to wait for them to be able to be “rubbed off” in the shower.

I think I might actually have a period of a few days where I have close to 100% clearance.

My cheeks and neck area look pretty good, with very few (around 10%) of the hairs still shedding on a couple of spots on my upper cheeks and on my neck near my ear (right side). Everythingn else on the neck and cheeks is negligible!

:slight_smile: Yay.

#6

Edited . . . Double post. Sorry . . . Why does this happen? Is there a way to delete this post?

[ May 07, 2003, 08:28 AM: Message edited by: Zap ]

#7

It has been 2 weeks since this treatment and the hair has shed > 90% on treated areas!!

The hairs are still shedding, and I can say that neither of the previous treatments had results that were any where near this good . . . After previous treatments, there were somewhat larger areas that were missed by the laser. This time, there is only a small patch that is 3 mm or so long and 2 mm wide under my chin (I recognize this patch of hair from the previous two treatments . . . It may not have been actually missed by the doc during any of the treatments–it might just be a “stubborn” patch).

I know that this reduction is temporary, and we’ll see how much of it grows back . . .

I’ve got a feeling after these results thought that I really will not have to shave ever again after a few more treatments . . . I can’t believe how drastic the difference is . . . I look like I’m 16 . . .

And if I do have to shave after a few more treatments it definitely won’t take longer than a couple of minutes . . . It might be good for my skin, too . . . I’ve heard that guys age better than women because shaving the face exfoliates the skin . . . I wouldn’t mind shaving once a week or less to remove hair that I can’t even see and to rejuvenate my skin . . .

I’ve got a feeling it will be all gone, though. :grin:

#8

hey Zap, great reports. i was wondering. i know the treatments thin the hair before they completly never come back. does the thinned hair make a very strange contrast to the normal thick hair?

#9

Unless you’re just a couple of inches away, the areas with the “fine hair” just end up looking like areas no hair at all . . .

After the first two treatments, I had problems with a couple of patches of thick hair that came back under the chin area . . . It looked weird because there were a couple of small patches of dark hair and the some of the areas around them were completely bald . . .

Most of the areas were the hair came back finer (that I noted) were on the cheeks, and it wasn’t a problem with me at all . . .

The biggest problem is not the fine hairs (those look like “no hair” unless you’re really close), but the patches of thick hair that come back . . . The contrast sometimes sucks . . . for me around the upper lip and chin areas it was the worst . . . And I have to say it did look a little silly . . . For me it’s a long term thing though . . . So it didn’t bother me enough to not have the treatments . . . if that makes sense?

If you were really concerned about th patches of hair they do make make up that works on men that might look natural as long as you use it cautiously . . . Some of it also has sunscreen which will definitely help . . . I was considering purchasing some but I think I am (after three treatments) past the point where it will draw any attention from people.

I’ve got a feeling that in a few weeks (before my next treatment on June 21) that the hair will come back finer than usual on some areas, maybe even on the chin and upper lip . . .

Although after looking at Vulpes’ arm results and compared to my face (I know you can’t DIRECTLY compare because in the arm only 10-15% is in anagen compared to up to 70% for some parts of the face and that the chin and upperlip are driven by some pretty strong hormones which makes comparison hard), I can see that after a coule of more treatments much of the hair will be gone. Especially if the fluence is raised by about 2J every treatment (maybe even 1J every treatment when it starts getting over 35J or so).

Permanancy is still the big issue, but I will find out as my treatments progress how permanent it really is for my case . . . After the first 5 treatments (that I already paid for) I might still go in for touch up treatments (for $50 to $100) every two months for a couple of treatments, and then start going every three or four months, and then probably every 6 months, and so on until they are all gone . . .

I’m gonna keep using the sunscreen and avoiding the sun as much as I can because I want to be able to use the higher fluences to catch the finer hairs and also to ensure as much as possible that these results are permanent . . .

It definitely takes a little effort and a lot of will power to do it right, but I think (for me at least), that the results so have shown a LOT of promise. :smile:

#10

I’ve had 8 treatments (lightsheer) for the beard, and it looks like its paying off. The problem in treating the male beard is that the first few treatments have settings that are so low, they really don’t count.

One way that I could tell progress was being made is the reduction in skin reaction that gets less with each treatment.

Other parts of the body have had different results. The arms have responded the least after 5 treatments, but the stomach has had the best, where the reduction has been around 75 percent - 5 months after treatment. I think that the areas that have had the least sun exposure have had the best results. (esp. underarms) There have been times when I really had doubts, but hair removal over most of the body is at least realistic now that long term results in some areas are becoming evident.

I’m sorry that I haven’t contributed a whole lot to this forum, but I can’t in good conscience, sway anyone in either direction until there are time tested results.

I’ll keep you all posted!

#11

Chris…

I noticed from your other post that you started your facial hair treatments with the LightSheer at a relatively low fluence (15J), and was up to 32J for the 5th treatment.

Would you happen to know your Fitzpatrick skin type (are you a type III or IV?).

Also, do you remember how fast you went up in fluence from the first treatment . . .

Did you start out at 15J and then go to 20J and then go up 4J every treatment to get to 32J?

Also what levels were treatments 6, 7, and 8 done at? Could you keep going up similarly or did you max out at a certain fluence because of side effects (or a cautious practitioner)?

And pulse width (was it 30 or 100 or something else?).

I’m just curious, as it will help me to compare to my own results . . . Also, what levels of hair reduction/removal have you acheived in the different areas (especially on the face).

Have your chin and upper lip responded very well? For me I think those will be problem areas.

Anyway, it would be really cool to have someone to compare myself to . . . my doctor does not like to get specific about his other patients…I’ve never really “prodded” him about it that hard, but I realize the position he’s in (doctors are liable for the advice and care that they give), and he doesn’t want to say something for one case and then give me an impression because that may not apply to mine (cuz everyone’s case is different)…

But as a consumer, I am interested in reading more about your results!! :smile:

#12

I just noticed that I have a couple of hairs that are growing back that are WHITE!!

I am in my early 20s and I have never seen a white hair on my body (or head) EVER.

It’s only 2 hairs (that I see) that are on my chin.

I gave one of them a slight tug with a tweezer and it appears to be firmly planted.

Did the laser kill the cells responsible for producing color in those couple of hairs?

If I pull the hairs, will they grow back as regular dark (black) hairs? Or is this permanent . . .?

Has anybody ever experienced this before???

If it is permanent, then those two hairs (and perhaps a couple of more?) that may sprout will necessitate electrolysis . . . I have heard that laser will “lighten” some hair instead of removing it . . . But turn it completely white???

Well, it’s only a couple right now . . . I hope my whole beard doesn’t grow back white . . . I don’t think it will, but this is too weird for me to handle right now.

#13

my trouble areas are hair on my cheeks being too thick and on my neck area. what do you suggest for this problem, Zap? i dont want to remove it completly but enough so when i shave it looks like i actually shaved.

#14

Zap,

My Fitzpatrick appears to be around a III, since I burn rarely and am of English descent. The tan that I’ve gotten in past summers doesn’t seem to totally disappear when comparing with other parts that receive no sun. That’s probably why I did not feel a thing under my arms at 40 joules.

As far as the fluences go, my treatments were generally increased by 5 joules each time, but I think the maximum has been 40. After waiting about eight weeks for treatment # 8, I had to back down to 33, since there was more hair regrowth that time. I’m going in later this month for # 9, and I will try to get back up to 40. Your question about how much higher than 40 one can go is a good one. It would seem like if you went much higher than 45, the laser would target things other than hair. (freckles etc.) I have rosecia on my face, but my practicioner said that the laser does not see red. (they use red markers to mark your skin)

The best response has been on the sides of the face, and the upper lip. Next time, I’m going to use Emla Cream on the chin, which will allow higher settings. The novocain only numbs the upper lip.

I can’t recall what the pulse setting has been. To be honest with you, I’ve never asked. How does it affect treatment?

The spots of unresponsive hair were pretty bad until treatment # 4. There is one spot left that is a quarter inch in diameter on the chin that has the original hair density, but it tells me how much improvement there has been since the first treatment. I could see the shadow of new hair growing three weeks after treatments, but now there is mostly coarse blond/white hair left, with sparse dark ones comming up.(maybe they were there before, but hidden by the thick dark ones) I figure that I’ll keep blasting away until around 15 treatments. It just takes a lot of patience.

You’re right about the sunscreen improving treatments. While I was never a big fan of it, I keep forgetting to use it on the face between treatments.