Ellen Kronenberger (Germany) has developed a statement of specific treatment times. Doris Becker (Germany) asked me to respond to the controversy on this issue. Basically, I can see both sides of the issue and it’s not just a “yes or no” answer. So, I wrote the following and posted it on my website … The article might be interesting for those reading Hairtell … What do you think about stating “standard treatment times” for each area of electrolysis treatment? Can electrologists guarantee how many hours a treatment will take?
https://electrologynow.com/how-much-is-this-going-to-cost/
I don’t like to give TTT (total treatment time), but will think of clients with similar hair situations and give a rough guesstimate, based on a finished client, while cautioning about all the very good points (hurdles) that Seana outlined.
I approach that cost question with the number of clearances rather than hours. If on biological woman with PCOS presents with a beard, very dense or somewhat scattered hair of all structures, I say she will need 8-15 clearances spread out over 18-24 months. I do caution that she may need a few more or a few less because there are many variables. CLEARANCE is the key word - not sessions or hours.
This cost question wears me out, but once it is explained and reinforced, it’s all fine.
good comment …
Also good. I only give TTT on VERY specific situations. They are grappling with this issue in Germany.
Seana … your post is excellent and I’d like to copy and post it on my website under that article on the German controversy.
I posted this information on our closed facebook site for electrologists only. There was a very interesting , long comment that you would be interested to see. I will give her your private email, Mike if she doesn’t want to share it here.
I posted her comment on my website. funny, I thought Hairtell deleted the thread … my mistake?
JE’s comment was never posted here, but I did send it to you,via email, with her permission.
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I’ll edit in the morning and then send it to you for more editing … but, your comments are important as Germany is really having problems with not having any standards. It’s really hard to imagine that Germany has no regulations on this … surprising.
I am one of the initiators of the standards and the homepage. First of all, I would like to thank Julia Eichfeld, who has already mentioned the most important points. I would like to add that these are our average treatment times, not those of other electrologists. By the way, the customer won the case. A German court ruled in his favor, thus laying a foundation for subsequent lawsuits in Germany.
What I wonder, however, is why Ms. Becker does not contact us directly. I would be interested to know why she questions our times and figures, while on her own homepage she even states to treat up to 1200 hairs in one hour and to need between 50 and 80 hours for a male beard (see her homepage). With these data the colleague Becker could join our initiative instead of controversial discussions about it. Someone might wonder about ulterior motives.
To all other colleagues, I would like to say that I appreciate people who communicate and discuss openly and honestly. So if you have any questions about our standards, please feel free to contact us. We stand for collegial exchange.
Screenshots removed, due to Seana’s request.
Thanks for posting here Ellen. Actually, as I said in my writing on my website …
[direct quote] “I have read the new advertised German standards and they seem fairly innocuous. Most of us are achieving the times that are stated and the times are fairly consistent with my times. Still, those opposed to formulating such standards point out all the variables in electrology: from the modality used to the specifics of the individual client. In the German standards there are no set time standards for a woman’s face. And, that is appropriate because hormones greatly affect the outcome in treatment time for the face.”
Ellen, if you’d like to comment on the article on my website that will be great. Indeed, for my entire long career there are few issues that cause more hostility than the issue we are presently talking about. Again thanks for your comment.
During the time the AEA was attempting to compile “standards of treatment time” we had the same arguments and a lot of anger and hostility. As I mentioned, Jean was never able to get her program going … Es gab zu viel Wut und, meiner Meinung nach, Angst.
For those not knowing German, Ellen is right in that Doris states in her advertisement [translated] “that between 400 and 1000 hairs can be removed in one hour … and up to 1200. Under optimal conditions, even a speed of up to 1200 hairs can be achieved.” Doris also states [translated]: “The removal of facial [beard] in trans-women should be calculated with an average treatment effort of 50 – 80 hours.?
Seems to me that both of these very competent women are “on the same page?” I’m a bit confused. When I used to advertise, I never stated any TTT in my advertisements. I only gave estimates when possible and only when I was giving a consultation to a new client. Perhaps Professional Standards can be developed, but not advertised? I don’t know, just a suggestion.
And this is sad for our profession.
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We not perform miracles or see ourselves as exceptional talents. We are just doing our job to the best of our ability. We are aware that these TTT (300, 400 and even 500 hours) exist and we would like to understand how these times come about.
Our standards reflect our shortest and longest TTT from many decades of our records. We have no other trans clients. We have the same problems as all our colleagues. We have beards with little hair and beards with very dense hair growth. We have genetic and age differences in hair patterns. We treat clients before and during HRT. And yet TTT over 90 and 100 hours are our exceptions. These are based exclusively on bad working conditions, e.g. hair too short, restless during treatment. It is our job to communicate good working conditions with our clients. Or not?
Yes Ellen … Jean is very smart and her protocol was impeccable. She spent a lot of time trying to get other electrologists to work on this potentially monumental undertaking. As I mentioned, virtually nobody would cooperate; even when she devised a way to keep everyone’s name a secret.
Manchmal denke ich, wir haben eine geheimnisvolle Gesellschaft und keinen Beruf.
I’m a bit surprised Seana … not a very nice comment to Ellen.
However, I’m glad your expressed this reaction; because it is a reaction. Many years ago, I did a presentation for the AEA (I believe in Florida). I presented lots of photos (slides, before the digital age) and also presented photographs of my work: before and after and the TTT of each case. I was almost thrown off the stage and people were furious. (I had also shown photos of overtreatment and how it resolves.)
One women came up to me and said, “I hate you … I hate what you’re doing to this profession.” Yeah, it didn’t go well. I do think that both Ellen and Doris are sincerely trying to create an appropriate standard and discussion. You know the “conversation.”
Just denouncing another electrologist, who is giving it a sincere try, is not warranted … especially from a person in charge of Hairtell. Neutrality is always the best way to go. However, many electrologists react to such issues emotionally. I have to laugh, because I had to meet up with Keiko (Japan) at the last AEA convention in San Diego … I showed up but I was HIDING. I cannot go to such meetings without being denounced for something or other. NOT GOOD.
Oh yeah … it would be a good idea to actually read the standards that Ellen has put forward. Like I said in my article … innocuous. Check it out because the standards are probably not what you think they are.
This is a comment for everybody … a quote from Art Hinkel:
“No one can have dignity: professional, personal or otherwise unless she is basically honest. If an electrologist misrepresents her abilities to remove hair permanently, she is bound to end up failing to perform as expected, thus losing both her client and her own self-respect. Experience has shown that ethical practices are, in the long run, the most prosperous. In a field where electrologist and patron are required to work in close cooperation over periods of months, even years, only a relationship of mutual trust is bound to succeed.”
I think those opposed to “TTT standards” oppose those standards for the reason expressed by Hinkel. And, I don’t disagree with that sentiment either.
Seana, you question my statements? Please take a look at my homepage, there you will find a few pictures of my work, including a beard. If you want to see the treatment documentation, you will have to be patient, as I am currently on vacation in the Netherlands.
One more thing, may I ask you for respect when you discuss my work.
Das denke ich auch manchmal… like Voodoo.
Oh how lovely Ellen … I spent so much time in The Netherlands. It’s almost my second home. I like to tell people that I lived in Madurodam!
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