Skin cancer risk etc

Hair Removal Methods Laser hair removal
#1

Hi everybody!

I’m a 23 year old female with -like most people on this forum - not only the occasional bad hair day but an overall bad hair situation throughout the year <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

I’ve been browsing through the forum for a couple of months now as there are not so many and frequently used forums in Germany where I’m from. I’ve been having electrolysis on my face now since the middle of October - that’s going alright but I’m really concerned about skin damage since my skins does not seem to handle the treatments too well. But anyway that is a different story! I’m writing right now because I would like to get hair removed from my legs, bikini area and armpits as well. I found a place that has fairly reasonable prices and the staff seem really nice and all. They even offer a 5 year guarantee when you buy a 8 treatment package in advance meaning that they will treat any regrowth for free in that period should more than 8 sessions be needed - that’s how confident they are. However, they use an Epilux which is an IPL. Now from what I’ve read here is that some users repeatedly suggested that IPL is not really as good as Laser for hair removal. The thing is, I did get one trial treatment on November 4 and did experience shedding - not 100% but let’s say about 70-80% on legs and bikini and about 90% on armpits (energy settings were lower on legs and bikini as they didn’t knew how my skin would react and also because particularly bikini hurt sooooo bad <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Apart from the discussion laser vs. IPL I am concerned about skin damage once more. I didn’t have any burns or anything, skin looked just fine. However, what are the long-term effects? Do treatments raise the risk of developing skin cancer later on? At this place they say their devices have red-light filters so that no other cells would be affected - but of course they are also trying to sell their services.

Another thing that worries me is that I THINK I’ve developed tiny slightly whiter spots on my legs and arms (did those too to see if it works there - hair is thin but not completely light there). Not really noticable yet as my skin is really fair anyways (I’m somewhere between TYP II and III I guess)- you really have to look very close at them. Is this temporary or maybe a sign I shouldn’t continue? I mean my skin does burn easily in the sun and SOMETIMES I am prone to have a slight sun allergy when I go on vacation and really sunbathe at the beach.However, if I take extra calcium a couple of weeks in advance my skin handles sun exposure without allergic reactions…could I maybe continue and take calcium at the same time <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />

Sorry, this is so long. I just don’t know who to ask and need some impartial opinion as I need to make a decision soon on whether to continue or not…

#2

  1. Hair removal lasers do not emit the type of light that causes cancer, so it’s not a concern based on the research that has been done in the past 10 years since they’ve been around for this purpose. However, of course, who really knows what can happen 30 years down the line. You can’t really predict, but all indicators say that it’s not a concern with these lasers in particular.

  2. Shedding doesn’t mean that the hair was killed. It’s just one that the hair was somehow affected, but the problem with IPLs is exactly that. People do see shedding if you read these forums while using IPLs, however they experience a lot of the hair grow back. That aside, this machine can probably work, it just won’t give you as good of results as a true hair removal laser like an alexandrite.

  3. I wouldn’t put my money on them staying in business for as long as you will need follow-up treatments. Places that offer that often go out of business because it costs money to maintain lasers, so what happens when 50% of people coming in for treatments are not bringing in any money? I wonder how long this place has been in business. It sounds like the business model is to get money up front and then see what happens, and probably close when it gets to a point where they can’t honor their “contract”.

  4. Have you researched to see if there is a GentleLASE or another alex laser available? You might want to try contacting the Candela Corporation that makes it to see who bought it in Germany.

  5. Not sure about the spots. Can you post a picture? It can be hyperpigmentation, but that usually happens on darker skin or if you had a slight tan and high settings were used.

  6. What machine is used for your electrolysis? What type of electrolysis? How often do you go? Are they treating the same area before it’s healed? What aftercare are you using?

#3

First, about the skin cancer risk. There are two kinds of radiation: ionizing and non-ionizing. UV light is ionizing, regular light is non-ionizing. Only ionizing light can cause cancer. The question of whether 30 years from now we may find out that these hair removal lasers can cause cancer is completely bogus as it has nothing to do with research and everything to do with physics.

By the way, one of these days I am going to have to make the calculations as to how much radiation exposure you get in one pulse of alexandrite compared to regular sunlight, but my wild guess is probably 4-6 hours condensed into 10 milliseconds or so. The point being is that over your lifetime you are exposed to much more photonic radiation than you will ever be exposed to by laser treatments.

Regarding your little white spots. One common diagnosis is guttate hypomelanosis, which is a depigmentation due to chronic sun exposure and is very very common in people over the age of 35-40 if they spent any amount of time out in the sun. I have had some people think this is due to laser, it is just that they didn’t notice it before. And in many cases it can also be found in places where there hasn’t been any laser treatments, depending on how much tanning or sun exposure they had over their life.

#4

Hi SSLHR,

I have been doing a whole bunch of physics calculations and conversion tables on laser treatment settings and different lasers. I might be able to help you with those calculations. Most people don’t realized that the lasers use the visible light spectrum to do the work.

Better yet, give me the sun exposure data and I’ll run it for you. The thing is that the sun emits many wavelengths of energy, so the sun’s emissions will be represented collectively as energy.

Zanrico

#5

I have been doing a whole bunch of physics calculations and conversion tables on laser treatment settings and different lasers. I might be able to help you with those calculations. Most people don’t realized that the lasers use the visible light spectrum to do the work.

Better yet, give me the sun exposure data and I’ll run it for you. The thing is that the sun emits many wavelengths of energy, so the sun’s emissions will be represented collectively as energy.

Calculations for laser treatment settings. Interesting. Are you doing it for fun?

Actually the relevant calculations are pretty simple. The only piece of information that I don’t know (and I’ve seen it before) is the amount of solar energy that strikes the earth. What would help would be a figure that gives you the amount of energy that strikes the earth per cm squared over some time period. Or better, would be something that calculates that energy for various ranges of wavelengths, then if you picked a range around 755 nanometers, it would provide an estimate that could be used to compare to the amount of photonic energy in a typical laser pulse.

My guess is that with a little bit of searching all that information is readily available on the web. I would be interested in seeing your calculations at some point. If only to see what it is you are doing.

#6

First off THANK YOU BOTH, lagirl and sslhr for your input!

I guess, I really need not worry that much about skin cancer after all since the light an IPL-machine emits is as non-ionizing as the light of lasers, IF I got sslhr’s point right <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

I still haven’t made up my mind definitely as to whether to give it a try or not. The thing is, I’m still a college student and the places that offer hair removal with real lasers are simply too expensive for me as I want to work on larger areas. And after all, this company keeps expanding with several offices - which makes me think they probably have done their calculations and plan to stay in business longer. So as of today, I’m leaning towards giving it a go at this IPL place, that is, I will go in and have them consult me about the teeny tiny white spots I’ve mentioned. I’m only 23 and I don’t know about “chronic sun exposure” as you have pointed that out as a possible cause, sshlr. I’ll let you know what they think they are in case anybody else is experiencing these things and is interested <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

As for my bad skin reaction after electolysis: it really does look bad but my skin is extremely sensitive anyway, so I don’t know if I can really blame it on my electrologist. I also have a minimal hormonal imbalance which might also account for the breakouts I have been developing on my cheeks. I’m getting both cheeks, sideburns, chin, upper lip, (soon) lower lip, nipples and chest bone done. chin seems to handle the stress without any bigger problems. however, the rest of my face stays red for a couple of days (it fades really slowly) and is also very tender to touching it (which I of course try to avoid particularly in the first 24 hours). She uses blend on the darker and thicker hairs that are randomly scattered around my face and then switches to thermolysis ( I think flash) for the thin but long ones. After treatment, she applies an aloe vera gel, that I leave on for the rest of the day. What do you mean by tea tree oil? That can’t be 100% tea tree oil, as a dermatologist said that would be too aggressive on the skin. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />
Maybe I’m also overtreating the area a little bit. I go in every 7-10 days for 1 and 1/2 hours spending 1 hour on my face alone.My last treatment was Dec 23 and I’m gonna give my cheeks a break for 2 weeks - to see if healing time is the problem…don’t know, excessive hair in a female’s face can be so frustrating, but bad skin doesn’t make you feel better either <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

Anyway, I wish you all a Merry Christmas!!

#7

have you tried a few other electrologists to compare the effects on your skin? it can vary with skill, so might be worth a try. yes, pure tea tree oil works well in small quantities. If that’s too harsh on your skin, you can try witch hazel that you can get at any drug store for a few dollars. Then apply it twice a day. If you’re getting redness for more than a day, you should be applying that or aloe vera etc twice a day until the skin heals. Try it and let us know how it goes. You’re overtreating if you’re treating the same area over and over without letting it heal. Is that the case? Also, parts like the upper lip shouldn’t be worked on for more than 10-15 mins at most as this area is sensitive.

p.s. just because a company is expanding, doesn’t mean that they’re providing customers with results. It just means they’re getting a lot of money up front before anyone has a chance to complain and/or have customers sign a waiver so that most don’t complain even if they DON’T get results (like a certain national chain clinic).

#8

Hello Everyone,

In response to SSLHR: No, I don’t do it for fun, I do it as a part of my life.

Lilia, I did find the irradiance or power density of the sun, but it will not mean anything to you at the moment. I am in the middle of several projects and will put this information into meaningful terms for you in the future. Just in case anyone is interested here is that data. As before, I assume the value includes all wavelengths of energy (visible and invisible).

Solar Constant (Total Solar Irradiance or Power Density): 1.365 - 1.369 kW/m²
[at the mean distance of the earth from the Sun, about one AU (1 astronomical unit)]

NASA - Sun: Facts & Figures

Zanrico

#9

lagirl wrote, “However, of course, who really knows what can happen 30 years down the line. You can’t really predict, but all indicators say that it’s not a concern with these lasers in particular.”

sslhr took exception to that. Responding, “The question of whether 30 years from now we may find out that these hair removal lasers can cause cancer is completely bogus as it has nothing to do with research and everything to do with physics”

Lagirl’s comment is a good one. No often, but occasionally what “the experts” are certain of has a way of changing over time. And isn’t it funny how the experts usually have something personal/financial at stake with the answers.

Is any of this real or are we living in the matrix?

Please pay no attention to the man behind the curtain(Wizard of Oz).

Paul the Cynic

#10

As for Tea Tree Oil. A little goes a LONG way. One only uses 10 drops in a bathtub of water for a soak. The problem is most companies that sell it don’t put a dropper cap-plug in the bottle, and people tend to pour out and use too much.

In the event that one actually is too sensitive, and not using too much, the oil can be mixed with lavendar oil, or olive oil.

#11

Let’s come back to the issue about having a personal stake in the answer.

If you ask me if it is possible for nerve tissue to regenerate in any meaningful way. My answer would be, “not as we know it but there is no real reason biochemically or physically for it not to.” In other words, the concept would not contradict the physics.

But if you ask me if it is possible to turn lead in gold, my response would be, “No, it violates the principles of physics.” But if you think about it, it is only a matter of removing a few protons and neutrons (3 of each). But physics doesn’t work that way and mankind spent many many generations trying to accomplish that goal. And it will never happen spontaneously. Who knows, maybe in the future we’ll be able to do it using a quantum energy wavefront. But right now that’s science fiction.

How does this relate to skin cancer? Skin cancer is caused by ionization of a DNA molecule which ends up replacing a base pair with the wrong base pair and leading to irreversible and cancerous changes. The key word here is ionization. Energy with a wavelength shorter than blue light, (ultraviolet, Xray, Gamma ray) are capable of ionizing. Longer wavelengths can not and that has to do because of the size difference between the target and the wavelength and is a property of physics. Because they don’t ionize, they don’t cause cancer. No amount of hypothesizing changes that fact.

And by the way, there has been tremendous research done on this very topic with respect to many different types of radiation, to include non-ionizing. Lasers, for example, have been used on skin for over 30 years.

Now to come around full circle. Maybe the reason that I (as someone who qualifies as something of an expert in this area) am willing to have a personal/financial stake is because I know the risk of cancer is zero.

Just another way of looking at it.

#12

Hi sslhr,

even if this might seem repetitive to you, I’d like to ask one more question to make sure I got it all right.

The IPL that is used on me is an Epilux emitting wavelengths between 600nm and 950nm meaning that everything outside that range is filtered according to the information they provide on their website. Since you only referred to real lasers, I was wondering if this particular IPL is also non-ionizing, thus not harmful to skin. I did have two treatments already and I observed that one small mole changed its color somewhat afterwards bringing this concern to mind again. What do you say?

#13

Ionizing radiation is everything below 400 nm.

The superficial answer here is that IPLs do not put out ionizing radiation.

Now to complicate things. The underlying truth is that IPLs do put out ionizing radiation along with all other wavelengths. In other words, they do put out wavelengths in the ultraviolet spectra, but then they filter the wavelength to get the 600 to 950 nm that they claim. In addition, no filter is perfect, so there are some ultraviolet photons that will get through the filter and hit your skin.

The real question is whether the number of photons that hit your skin is substantial. Each machine uses a different filter, but these filters are all pretty efficient. So in reality the number of UV photons that hit your skin during a treatment is probably a thousand times LESS than what hits your skin during a second outside in the sun during the summer.

As far as changing the color on a mole on your skin. Absolutely the IPL can cause that change because it targets the melanin in the mole and damages that melanin. That isn’t the same as a cancerous change. Though it may be difficult to tell if you are just looking at a mole. Unless one is absolutely sure that the mole changed due to laser hair removal, the prudent thing would be to have a dermatologist check it out.