No. legs being shaved usually have a higher percentage of telogen hairs. The duration of the telogen phase in this area is much longer as well. Translated: the percentage of hairs in which you can work after 2 weeks after shaving, would not reach even 50%. And while the man’s beard, the resting phase lasts only a few weeks, legs lasts for months. So if you want to work with more density to kill more hairs in each clearance, you need more time without shaving. The customer does not have to suffer with long hair, hair can be cut. There are excellent machines that cut the hairs. A couple of millimeters is enough to work.
Hello Deana. I have understood that the papilla is never completely separated from the follicle. A small bead of cells held together both elements. In any case, I am convinced that it is not necessary to traverse the base of the follicle. Do you know? Michael in his book downplays the transient part of the follicle. Traditionally, the papilla seems to have been overestimated.
Yes, the center of the upper lip is an extremely sensitive area. My clients feel more comfortable with a complete set of Picoflash 9 pulses with .001 s, or 9 pulses of .002 s. Both 99%. The first pulses produce porosity for dry follicles.
Plan B is a multiplex of 0.1 s with a final pulse of .001. I do not remember the intensity, but “el” never passes the 100. These parameters are very comfortable in this area.
Tightening much the skin in this area to reduce the feeling of the entry of the probe. If the client’s skin is very dry, moisturize the skin also helps.
When doing blend, it is easy to downplay the location of the dermal papilla.
Josefa,
Thanks for your informative reply! I am trying to note your comment to me and know that I am not doing it quite right. I know most people note the comment they are responding to, then add their question or comment. I was not sure how to do that, so I sent a message to you in “my stuff.” My older kids (who are not around) are better than my 16yr. old at helping me with computer issues. I am attempting this on my own and hope this reads okay. [color:#FF6600](DeeDee, I corrected that for you. Just select quote in the menu below the post if you want to quote the post you are replying to. My kids, friends and neighbors are burned out helping me, so I just abide 
)[/color]
I tried the 9 pulses .001s/99% on telogen lip hairs today on a client. The hairs released nicely and my client was comfortable. I find it very interesting that you use high intensity with low timing on these type hairs. Apilus’ teaching recommends the opposite, saying that high intensity dries out an already dry hair. They recommend increasing the timing instead. In fact, they do not recommend increasing the intensity any more than 2% in a given preset as this, they claim, is painful. I can’t imagine that many electrologists follow this practice as difficult hairs would be tweezed.
I tried your recommended settings on myself as well. They were very comfortable and my skin reaction was good. Thanks again for all your good advice. If you get around to it, check your “my stuff” private message. Maybe I did it wrong though.
Deanna
Hi Deanna, do not worry, your message was clear and I could understand everything. I have not responded yet because I want to serve with some pictures to give more meaning to my words. Thank you for your confidence. I try to answer tonight to all messages.
(I discovered another little trick that can help in our work, if not at least be fun. 
)
“I am also very afraid of shaving because I think it would make things worse. I think about how I have been shaving my legs since I was 10 years old and how I have way more hair on my legs than I used to and it is much more coarse too. I don’t want the same thing happening to my face.”
Indeed, “seeing is believing.” Problem is, “seeing” does not therefore make it true! As the old story goes, the rooster crowed each morning, and the sun came up. He started to worry that if he missed his crowing one morning, the sun would fail to rise.”
The “shaving causes increased hair growth” tale will never go away; but it still does manage to make me a little sick.
Consider: if a balding guy were to start shaving his pate, would the hair grow back? I think we have a lot of bald dudes that tried it. Damn, it didn’t work!
The hair on your legs was coming in anyway. Just as a young man is warned not to shave or the beard will increase … guess what, the beard comes in anyway; no matter what you do.
People certainly love their myths. Sadly, most of the world’s population still follows doctrines and beliefs set down during the Bronze Age. Yeah, progress is slow! People will continue to hold onto the “shaving” myth, because that’s what they experience. The “seeing” is wrong.
If you ever want to see how really whacked things can get, visit the “Creationist Museum.” Dinosaurs living with humans in “the garden.” Seriously, it’s hopeless.
Thanks Dee for the computer tip. I did not feel like asking Kevin about it and risk getting the “are you kidding me look.” He definitely is not my most patient child.
Josefa, one thought I had about treating telogen hairs permanently v.s. simply getting them to release nicely, then treating them permanently when they return strategy, is that 2 components must occur.
First, the insertion must be deep enough, as opposed to an insertion just below the surface, where the white “grain of salt” lies. A question regarding that: how deep to go with insertion? As deep as the full anagen hair in the area or an insertion that ends at the transient papilla? If we are to insert only as deep as the transient papilla, how can we tell where that is?
Secondly, a shallow insertion (as Dectro recommends on a telogen hair) requires low intensity and more timing to loosen hair. This does not permanently destroy the hair. So, we want to permanently destroy the hair without causing too much pain, what should we do about intensity and timing?
In the lip area the 9 pulse, high intensity, low timing worked great (I inserted @1/3 of the length of a Ballet F3I). In other threads, you say that often times you like 1 pulse with telogen hairs. I am assuming that you are talking about underarm, back (typically deep anagen areas,) as you like lots of pulses in the more delicate cheeks and lip area.
What do you with an underarm or chest area (regarding intensity and timing) that has not been shaved in 3 months? Let’s say a man’s chest age 50, dry gray hairs (I am working on one now that lasered last Dec.). I am sure he would rather do it once, enduring more pain, as opposed to me treating the hair with a just below the surface insert with just enough intensity to have the hair release comfortably (knowing the hair will return because the necessary cells were not destroyed). He has a lot of hairs and the time saved (and money - to him, of course) would be his (and my) preferred plan of attack. Is treating telogen hairs permanently (when in the areas of typically deep hairs which require a lot of energy) more painful than treating the hairs if they were in anagen? If you were treating these hairs in anagen what settings would you use and how would you change your settings if they were in telogen?
I know this is a lot and I much appreciate you taking the time to respond. People keep talking about electrologists that treat telogen hairs effectively and it seems that many do not. I want to know from you, what you understand, needs to be done for this to be accomplished. I hope many (I think they will) benefit from your response!!!
Deanna Stovall
www.powellelectrolysis.com
I was referring to my jawline area. I asked my electrologist if she’s comfortable treating hairs in the telogen phase and she said stated she is. She still has me scheduled for weekly appointments though and I don’t think I can make it to next week’s appointment. She’s about an hour and a half away from where I live and gas is expensive. With the treatment fees plus driving out there it becomes costly. I still have my 3 boys that I need to care for so as much as I want to do this for myself, I can’t always afford the weekly expense. She’s very understanding and she told me from the first appointment that weekly visits in the beginning are ideal but she understands that life happens and things come up. But if the plan that you’re stating would work for me then, I know I can afford that and since she said she’s comfortable working with the different stages of hair growth then it could work for her as well. The only thing is me having the gumption in me to allow whatever hair that’s left to grow for a full 3 months…now that could pose an issue lol
If I were to cut back to monthly for an hour or hour 1/2 each appt., would that hurt the progress that I’m making so far? I’m very pleased with her work and I wouldn’t want to jeopardize what she’s done for me thus far. I’ll talk to her about it as well but I wanted to hear your guys’ thoughts. Thanks in advance! =)
Hi Deanna, sorry for the delay in responding.
“First, the insertion must be deep enough, as opposed to an insertion just below the surface, where the white “grain of salt” lies. A question regarding that: how deep to go with insertion? As deep as the full anagen hair in the area or an insertion that ends at the transient papilla? If we are to insert only as deep as the transient papilla, how can we tell where that is?”
Approximately half of the depth that you would go if the same follicle was in anagen. An extra millimeter to work safely if you are using a bare probe. That same millimeter less if you’re using an insulated probe. If the probe tip is placed at the height of “grain of salt”. The heat of HF will reach the papilla because the heat pattern extends downward, sideways and upwards.
“Secondly, a shallow insertion (as Dectro recommends on a telogen hair) requires low intensity and more timing to loosen hair. This does not permanently destroy the hair. So, we want to permanently destroy the hair without causing too much pain, what should we do about intensity and timing?”
This question is the key to the whole thing. I do not know if other machines can achieve coagulation without desiccation, using a flash in one or two milliseconds. My old machine of Sorisa certainly can not.
Does this mean that the machine Sorisa not work? Of course, NO. I have worked for over 20 years with this brand and the follicles were being coagulated too … but not in this fraction of a second. Here is the extraordinary feat of Dectro engineers (and others who have managed to achieve this). Produce enough heat to coagulate, without exceeding the temperature that would produce a desiccation for the shortest time as possible to achieve a treatment more tolerable.
The problem with schools, evaluation boards, etc, is that the recommendations become an imposition and you must adjust to their rules. Recently, the Dectro school has rectified on the recommendation to work “only in anagen.” Well, say that “rectify is matter of wise.” Being self taught is not as bad as many would have us believe. In fact, trial and error is the basic principle of all sciences.
“What do you with an underarm or chest area (regarding intensity and timing) that has not been shaved in 3 months?”
I always try to divide the energy I reckon most of the hairs will need between 2 or 3 fractions, regardless of the phase. That is, if I think a terminal hair of the back of a man may need an average of 700 “e.l,” I program settings that allows me to work with half of this energy as soon as possible to reduce the feeling of pain. For example, to Multiplex, thermo slow, 0.1 s / 60%. Pico, .001 s / 99%, 1 pulse. I think this gives us 360 “e.l” (I can not remember and I’m at home). Then, as in the same area there are hairs of different sizes and at different phases, I pulse the pedal twice if I have evidence that a single touch of pedal is not enough to be fatal.
Well, Columbus is in mourning! The Buckeyes lost in the Final Four Basketball Tournament. For those of you not familiar with the Ohio State Buckeyes (a 50,000 student university), I want you to know that our city loves our sports teams and it will take some time for us to bounce back.
Josefa,
Thanks for the good information. I like the 1st step you do of “labeling the hair” with the energy needed to destroy it (it’s like Hinkel’s and Bono’s method of identifying a hair by the “units of lye” required to destroy the hair – this always made sense to me). I guess that’s what Dectro did when they established the presets and levels for the different hair structures. But, for me and my way of thinking, the level thing, just puts another step in the equation and makes it more complicated. I plan to change my strategy and begin a treatment by labeling the hair by the needed els.
The insertion technique also makes sense with the transient papilla theory.
It sounds like your saying: that to remove a telogen hair it will take @ ½ of the energy it would have taken if that hair was still in the anagen phase. I have not heard that before. Dectro’s instruction on telogen hair is to lower the intensity, as not to dry out the follicle, and to raise the timing. This does lower the els, but not by half. This works at times, but not always. I’m glad to have another trick in my pocket and who knows maybe I will like it even better.
I am learning to become a “heretic” of electrolysis (as James calls it) when the situation requires it. That thought makes me laugh! Of course, I carefully watch my insertions, paying special attention to the skin’s reaction to ensure that I am not overtreating.
Josefa, you have given me much to think about and some different things to try. I very much appreciate you sharing the secrets from the findings of your experiments with settings. I have always viewed electrolysis from a science point of view and am continuing to learn of the “art” involved, realizing that that must be mastered as well.
Deanna Stovall
www.powellelectrolysis.com
My question:
“Secondly, a shallow insertion (as Dectro recommends on a telogen hair) requires low intensity and more timing to loosen hair. This does not permanently destroy the hair. So, we want to permanently destroy the hair without causing too much pain, what should we do about intensity and timing?”
Josefa answer:
This question is the key to the whole thing. I do not know if other machines can achieve coagulation without desiccation, using a flash in one or two milliseconds. My old machine of Sorisa certainly can not.
Does this mean that the machine Sorisa not work? Of course, NO. I have worked for over 20 years with this brand and the follicles were being coagulated too … but not in this fraction of a second. Here is the extraordinary feat of Dectro engineers (and others who have managed to achieve this). Produce enough heat to coagulate, without exceeding the temperature that would produce a desiccation for the shortest time as possible to achieve a treatment more tolerable.
My question:
“What do you with an underarm or chest area (regarding intensity and timing) that has not been shaved in 3 months?”
Josefa’s answer:
I always try to divide the energy I reckon most of the hairs will need between 2 or 3 fractions, regardless of the phase. That is, if I think a terminal hair of the back of a man may need an average of 700 “e.l,” I program settings that allows me to work with half of this energy as soon as possible to reduce the feeling of pain. For example, to Multiplex, thermo slow, 0.1 s / 60%. Pico, .001 s / 99%, 1 pulse. I think this gives us 360 “e.l” (I can not remember and I’m at home). Then, as in the same area there are hairs of different sizes and at different phases, I pulse the pedal twice if I have evidence that a single touch of pedal is not enough to be fatal.
My post and interpretation of Josefa’s explanation:
It sounds like your saying: that to remove a telogen hair it will take @ ½ of the energy it would have taken if that hair was still in the anagen phase. I have not heard that before. Dectro’s instruction on telogen hair is to lower the intensity, as not to dry out the follicle, and to raise the timing. This does lower the els, but not by half. This works at times, but not always. I’m glad to have another trick in my pocket and who knows maybe I will like it even better.
Sorry for weird manner in which I am posting this. I am unsure how to quote when you are quoting from different posts.
This is in reference to my understanding of what Josefa is saying is critical in treating telogen hairs. I needed to add, that an important part of treating the telogen hair is that you use high intensity with the shortest time possible. This is a deviation from what Dectro promotes and I just want to make sure I am understand what you find works best on telogen hairs.
Are these steps correct?
1)insertion to depth you stated.
2)Set epilator to destroy with the needed els for anagen hairs in area. (you say, to set for els needed for “most” of the hairs in the area - so I may have this wrong.) use about half of the energy needed if that hair was in anagen hair (I may have misinterpreted that). Using half of the energy is accomplished by stepping once on the pedal.
3)use high intensity with quick timing.
Again, thanks for your clarification on this!!!
Deanna Stovall
www.powellelectrolysis.com
Deanna, if you change your strategy, you have to retrain your vision. So far if you were working alone in anagen hairs, your eyes are trained to insert the double deep.
In an area that has not been touched in 3 months, you’re going to work in late anagen, catagen and telogen, except the man’s beard and pubic region in the rest of the body, the insertion depth should be 1/2 or 1/3 less. You will need some time observing the differences which occur in the hair shaft just at the level of the input of the follicle. Soon you will be able to clearly differentiate the hair gives us the clues needed to determine if it is a telogen or a anagen late.
2)Set epilator to destroy with [color:#CC0000]the half[/color] needed els for anagen hairs in area.
The recommendation of experts Dectro is correct. If you want to work in most telogen hairs, els too high not allow the coagulation ideal. But this is the same with a low intensity and a long time that just the opposite. The difference is that with a low intensity and longer time, you can abort the pulse if you’re using the pedal mode.
However, this does not happen, if you program half the energy that you calculate for this type of hair and pressing twice if necessary. Do not ask me why, but with the pattern of heat, 4 is not the same as 2+2. Translated into els, 4 dried, 2+2 coagulates.
Work with less els gives you greater security when you’re working near the infundibulum in telogen.
The proof is that with Multiplex, you can kill a hair with 136 els, while to kill the same hair, you need more than 200 els with Picoflash. The first stage of Multiplex, heats the follicle in tenth of a second, allowing that a single pulse of the second stage 001s is 10 times more effective. The day I have time, I will test the egg with the different systems to observe the pattern of heat.
On the other hand, high intensity in a very short time is more tolerable and you can work faster. Even two or three times by pressing the pedal, the treatment will be less painful than if you program more tenths or hundredths of a second.
When the client previously moisturizes the skin, this can be the difference between having to press the pedal once or do it twice.
Dectro’s teaching has always been (at least in the last 4 yrs.) to treat telogen hairs. They just do not believe that the kill rate is that good. They do not advocate that an underarm, that has been untouched for 3 months, can be completed in 3 treatments. As well, I have always treated telogen and anagen hairs, in my practice, as I am a big believer in getting a clearance at each treatment whenever possible.
From your posts, I know that you have experienced completion of an unshaved underarm in 3 treatments. I want to figure out what are you doing different from others to obtain this result.
I was thinking that your insertions might be very deep (like Bono recommends)hence your results. That was not it, as you insert more shallow on telogen hairs. I do as well.
The settings you use are quite different: Very high intensity with very short timing. Multiplex with a slow thermolysis setting that is significantly altered (between 50%-79% intensity)- very high. I know you bring down the timing when you do this, which makes els at a safe level. Anyway, maybe the way that you deliver the needed els contributes to the permanency that you experience. This is where the “art” part of electrolysis combines with the science part, and what James means when he talks about being a “heretic” of electrolysis. Like you said, trail and error is what makes us grow and become better at what we do.
Thanks for sharing! It will be fun to test your different settings! I have picked your brain enough. I promise to let you rest.
Deanna Stovall
www.powellelectrolysis.com
[/quote]
Dee, I thought I hit “quote” in the box to reply to Josefa. The 1st paragraph is hers and I wanted to note it as such. I will pay closer attention . [b](I fixed it.)[/b]
Deanna Stovall
www.powellelectrolysis.com
I think it would be very interesting and great if other electrologist will share their strategies working on areas with a lot of telogen and anagen hairs.
Do you set an epilator to destroy with the half needed els for anagen hairs in area too?
If so, as far as I understand, telogen hair usually need one pulse with this setting parameters, and anagen hairs will need two pulses, with one pulse at the papilla, and another high at the bulge. (So, for second pulse, one can simply press the pedal after displacement of the needle high in the follicle)
But I wonder if electrologist is working in auto mode? To achieve second pulse in anagen hair, one needs do first pulse at the papilla, then withdraw the needle, insert again, but shallower to bulge area?
It will be very interesting to hear opinions of other electrologists, especially who works in auto mode.
You can pulse in auto mode with one insertion. No need to withdraw the probe. You can choose to set the timing between pulses and you can choose how many pulses will be delivered within the follicle with the effort of inserting just one time. If I see the energy levels equal 340 el’s with double pulsing, then I will find the level, close to the preset, where just one pulse will give me 340el’s.
The Apilus Platinum allows up to nine pulses with one insertion. The probe can be moved inside the follicle with the one insertion and two or more pulses.
I have no formula for treating telogen hairs. I insert as needed to release the hair, while watching the skin. Whatever the strategy, with full clearances and regular sessions, the client is finished in about 9-18 months, depending on the area.
Hi Deanna,
I have had the privilege of knowing Josefa for almost two years now and having treatment by her. When I receive private messages from users asking about her treatment, I always describe her as a scientist. I am in science and I find the way Josefa approaches electrology is the same. Through trial and error and experimentation we make discoveries, we’re not always sure why what we observe is true but the fact remains that it is. Then we just have to convince others! I suppose HairTell has been Josefa’s peer review.
It is this kind of inquisitiveness that will push the field further. I love what I am reading in the Laurier thread at the moment.
I don’t know how Josefa feels, but I want to thank you for asking the questions you have. Since I have been here, observing Josefa’s many 3-clerance series photographs and experiencing the same clearance results first hand, I have found that there has been little public (I don’t know what goes on privately) discussion on these results. The protocol may not be for everyone but I am sure Josefa’s other clients will agree with me that for many people and their hairy areas, this strategy does have distinct advantages.
I’m glad questions are finally being asked and others are willing to experiment.
I hope one day I can join you.
Hi Stoppit&tidyup,
I am glad you responded. I was worried that I was taking up too much space in this thread (and looking back, I did), but I wanted to be sure I understood. I am so glad that others are finding the information helpful.
I enjoy your many posts as well. This site is so informative and thought provoking. By the way, I am going to get some Rose Hip oil.
Good luck to you and your future endeavors!
Deanna Stovall
www.powellelectrolysis.com