REPORT LASER HAIR STIMULATION

Hair Removal Methods Laser hair removal
#21

Doesn’t mean it isn’t a possibility that it can happen to some people.
Here was my full response to the OP on March 18th. I think it struck a fair balance. See the red script.

#105496 - Mon Mar 18 2013 10:41 PM Re: Laser Induced Growth on Upper Arms–PLEASE HELP [Re: Chichigirl13]
dfahey

Top 10 Contributor

Registered: Mon Oct 27 2003
Posts: 7913
Loc: Columbus, Ohio
I don’t agree that electrolysis is not for large areas. Ten hours on the upper arms with thermolysis (machine brand doesn’t assure speed and success) should have made a dent, but you say it did nothing. Ten hours over two months is not enough time.

I personally would like to see a picture or two of your upper arms with the hair grown out, in its natural state. Induced laser hair stimulation is a possibility on the upper arms of men, so why not women? I would say this could be so in your case? The upper arms are not hormonally dependent areas, so that’s why laser stimulation make sense.

[color:#FF0000]As for your forearms, it is a possibility that the laser stunned the hair and halted its growth long term and for some reason, ten years later, the hair started to reve up again. Just an educated guess and I admit that I can’t say for sure what happened in your case. What you report is very important and many of us have noted your story. On the other hand, perhaps you are still developing your hair patterns and that is new hair[/color].

If your hair is fine, it is good that you refused further laser treatment. Your only remedy is electrolysis. If you can shop around for an electrologist who is aggressive and resolved enough to do your arms with full confidence, then you will be fine. Large areas are not the domain of laser if the hair is too fine or too light. It can do nothing for you, so don’t waste your time or money. A professional electrologist, with the passion and pride it takes to do a job well, will save you.

#22

Yes I remember reading that, but I do have strong doubts about having rebound growth (which is probably not a real phrase) from laser 10 years later. If I recall, the OP said she was treated when she was 14? That leaves a lot of time for hair to grow in. I’m just not convinced this was induced. It might have been, but I just want to express my reservations

#23

I expressed my reservations as well. Nonetheless, the OP reported her observations and stated what she thought. It is worth considering, but no one has has clicked the gavel to declare a definite judgement. We look at patterns and it is nice to have all comments about this subject in one place for others to peruse.

#24

I don’t disagree. Please don’t feel like I’m attacking you. I just don’t want a bunch of people who read this forum to now not seek hair removal because of something that laser may/may not have done.

#25

I do not feel attacked in the least. We are having a very good discussion, I believe. Most of the people who read this are adults and can put it all together on their own and then decide for themselves. Nothing falsely unfair was said here.

#26

I just commented on the arm post and saw this thread. To sum up what I think (and wrote on other thread): Yes you can have laser stimulated hair pretty much anywhere hair follicles are.

Yes rebound laser hair is becoming more common since the earliest people treated in the mid/late nineties-early 2000’s are seeing the hair return (I’m NOT talking about IPL’s). Is this due to technology back then or is it due to the follicle repairing itself or due to “stunned” lasered hairs returning to normal???

[color:#FF9900]Edit by Dee Fahey: I included what you wrote on the “arm post”.[/color]

"#105565 - [color:#FF9900]Today at 03:34 PM Re: Laser Induced Growth on Upper Arms–PLEASE HELP [Re: dfahey]
CareBearhair
Major Contributor

Registered: Tue Jan 29 2008
Posts: 67
Loc: B.C. canada
You can have laser induced pretty much anywhere. I know a laser tech who refuses to give up her laser treatments even tho I’ve seen the hair get worse on her face, neck and chest (collar bone, breast bone, breasts). The energy is NOT too low: the hair WAS too fine even tho its dark.

You may see the hairs on your upper arms continually get worse for up to 8 months maybe a yr due to the laser treated hairs coming back. Or you may see certain months the hairs worse/thicker throughout the yrs. This is most likely the laser treated hairs going through its hair cycles.

All is not lost tho, thanks to electrolysis. Just try to be patient since laser induced hair is trickier to treat due to the returning “laser hairs”. Goodluck finding the right electrologist

PS. yes lasered hairs on your lower arms can definitely come back with or without a hormonal reason. 7-10 years seem to be a common timeline for lasered hair to return. Nobody truly knows how long lasered hair stays away?"
_________________[/color]

#27

That is THE question. Thus, that is why we note with interest consumer comments and watch for patterns and common denominators.

CareBear, are you a hair removal specialist, meaning laser? IPL? or an electrologist?

#28

Another consumer complaint. Copied and pasted from another thread:

#106956 - 5-16-13 at 07:06 AM Re: ELECTROLYSIS SUCCESS STORIES! Add yours here. [Re: Tina Marie]
melloe
Member

Registered: Fri Feb 15 2013
Posts: 1
Hi all,

I’ve finally registered on this site after scouring all posts relating to electrolysis/laser hair removal as a non member. This site has been such a massive help during my electrolysis journey and I’m now confident enough to share my experience.

Where to start, I am a 25 year old female of South East Asian descent. Fortunately for me I am actually not overly hairy however of course you are always your own worse critic. My sideburns bothered me a bit. They were longer than the usual (just a teeny fraction past my earlobes)and a work colleague had been getting IPL for pigmentation and suggested it as an option since I had mentioned it bothered me.

Anywho to try and cut this long story short, I had 4 sessions of IPL on my sideburns and upper lip. Initially my sideburns were shaved (standard practice) prior to the IPL. I had 4 weeks in between treatments and what I thought were results, was actually just the delayed growth due to the shaving on each visit. I personally don’t think the IPL had any effect on the hair as there was no shedding in between. My savvy colleagues had then caught onto Laser hair removal and were getting bikini areas done to which rave reviews all round. I then switched from IPL to Laser. Boy was that a bad decision.

Of course according to the clinic, yes I was a perfect candidate and most definitely the laser would work . I am of medium skin colour and tan easily , the hairs on my face were black but very fine (cringing as I’m typing this - hindsight is always 20/20). I had 6 sessions in total, with a Candela Gentlelase - the settings i’m not quite sure of. Walking away after each session, I was happy with the “results” the surface hair had been removed. And after two weeks time I did experience the shedding of hair.

[b]After my 5th treatment, during the break period I noticed that although my sideburns had been removed the fine downy hair that coated my cheeks were now no longer fine but dark, and alot thicker (correct term being terminal hairs). As well as hairs sprouting on my neck. In a panic, I called the owner of the clinic who reassured me this was not a problem and to see her on my next visit. At this stage, I then started to google keywords such as “laser stimulated hair growth” I came across so many other posts which made me really anxious about what was happening to me and also stumbled upon this website. On my visit I mentioned that could this possibly be the result of laser induced hypertrichosis? A terminology I picked up from my Google search.[/b]

The owner assured me, no definitely not. The hair growth was nothing out of the norm and she had seen worse, zapped the hair as per usual and told me if I had any worries or questions not to hesitate and contact her.

[b]After the 6th session all was fine for up to 8 weeks, I then noticed I practically had grown a beard overnight! All the fine vellus hair that covered my cheeks and jawline had turned terminal. Sometimes during my laser sessions the technician would say Oh you’ve just got a dark hair here, i’ll zap it for you. This would be in random spots on my neck. I noticed I now had a number of dark hairs around 7-8 on my neck. I KNOW for a fact, this was all laser stimulated hair. I had gone and caused myself a problem, when I practically didn’t even have one to start off with. I gave up on returning back to laser, after all the research I did thereafter I knew I was one of the unfortunate’s who managed to get laser induced hair growth. Suing is also not an option in New Zealand.[/b]

The worse part of it all was not only the visual of the hair that had grown (in a beardlike pattern - along the front of my cheeks), but the coarse sound when I rubbed my hand against my face. This absolutely shattered my self esteem and I kicked myself everyday for my stupid uninformed decision I had made.

I then came across Electrolysis as a form of hair removal, this time round I did extensive research. Such as post electrolysis effects, and does electrolysis stimulate hair growth ? I was so wary of the consequences of hair removal. I only came across positive reviews and reassuring posts.

5 months ago I started my electrolysis journey, the lady I have been going to has done such a fantastic job. I can’t believe the results and am so wrapped I’m looking into doing a course in electrolysis myself to help others.

To those who may be sitting here reading this post, considering hair removal options (mainly laser) for yourself. Please please do your research, speak to those who have undergone treatments themselves. From what I’ve learnt, laser only works on COARSE dark hair, preferably on fair skin. And should really not be performed on females from the neck up because it is such a hormonal area. I am not a professional but am only speaking from my own experience. I would recommend electrolysis to all and I really wish that I had chosen it from the start.

Kind Regards
Mel

#29

Seriously- idiotic practitioners need to STOP with the skin type IV+ GentleLase treatments! ESPECIALLY if they are not using AGGRESSIVE treatment with 755nm… that is, 18mm spot size, at least 20J/cm2, and a MINIMUM 50ms pulsewidth, with enough time between shots to allow the skin to rest!

What I don’t understand- if her sideburns were to be removed, how did hair on her face and neck grow??? Did she have her face and neck treated? Was she tested for hirsutism, or hyperandrogenism?

She says she knows for a “FACT” the growth was stimulated by laser, so hopefully she did have all these tests done.

#30

Yes! Exactly! How are laser practitioners educated? How long does it take? Who teaches the doctors and others to use the laser after they purchase it?

For your first question / sentence: I know you don’t like anecdotal hearsay, but I remember at least two clients of mine said they had IPL on their face, but a few months l
later they had sporadic thick hairs growing on their neck when the wand didn’t even TOUCH the neck area! Could the heat have transferred to another location to wake up those hairs? By the way, they never had terminal hairs there before.

This is what we hear in many testimonials. Could there be that many coincidences that people have something else wrong but grow hair several weeks after light-based treatments?

#31

Perhaps this is pure speculation, but does 7-8 hairs constitute induced growth? A few hairs popping up seems like it could be due to any sort of hormonal change. I would’ve expected to see a lot more growth if it was “laser induced,” but a single digit number of hairs… well, maybe that’s just me.

#32

I don’t know. I share the story and others can conclude what they want. There are more questions than answers on this subject.

Maybe stimulation is selective? Maybe some hair follicles are more easily stimulated than others? I’m not a hair biologist. I merely remove the hair and share with this community what my clients share with me. In a way, it doesn’t matter to me because my role is to remove the hair permanently and I can certainly do that. On with life…

#33

Oh yes I understand… I just wanted to post my speculation so others can give weight to my opinion as well. That’s all

#34
  • If a lawyer is incompetent do you ask what school the lawyer went to? It is the responsibility of any professional to truly be a professional in their field.

This, again, is evidence of your bias Dee. I asked a perfectly viable question regarding hyperandrogenism and hirsutism, and instead of even considering the question- you jump to a completely unrelated hypothesis involving the laser. Why do you dare not consider hormonal issues???

Yes, and you’re a nurse… so think like one. If a patient comes to you and says “I have bronchitis” do you treat the patient for bronchitis? How are experts supposed to make any assessments if your standard for expert is anybody who makes a negative claim?

Let’s speak in terms of what we know- she did not say her face was treated. She said she was having her sideburns removed. The location of her new hair growth is not consistent with where she says she had treatment performed. There is no reason, given the evidence as stated by the reporter, to consider laser as the cause other than the client’s claim to know for a fact the laser is to blame.

#35

Brenton, you are very diplomatic in pointing out the obvious. This IS pure speculation. It does not matter what kind of evidence anyone gives to the contrary- the supposition is in place and the information is used to fill in the gaps. What does not agree with the supposition, though it may be answered rationally, is disregarded in favor of speculation which does support the initial supposition.

Every single doctor who has taken part in any of the “studies” cited regarding paradoxical hypertrichosis have made millions performing laser hair removal. The papers themselves don’t condemn lasers in the manner speculators do, and most of their conclusions disagree with most of the speculation.

#36

Mickey, I see no evidence that I am being biased. How could I be when I have stated many times, over the years on this site, that I refer my clients who are good candidates to laser and I have observed fantastic results? So, it would be so helpful if you stopped using that tactic.

You appear to be pushing the idea that scientifically speaking, it couldn’t possibly be laser that caused increased hair growth , but rather it must be other stimulators (coincidentally) like hyperandrogenism, hirsutism causing this. You are doing exactly what you are saying I am doing… speculating. For all I know, you have a favorable bias toward lasers since you sell and service lasers as your livihood.

It appears to be a strange coincidence that of all the cases that have been reported since 2003 by worried consumers on Hairtell, have the common denominator of observing more hair than when they started after a few or more laser treatments. I don’t think we are on the same page, and thus you don’t understand what I’m trying to convey because you may not have the real world advantage of closely communicating with real live clients like I do.

I would hope that anyone with a scientific mind should be open to such all possibilities and not poo-poo consumer observations as impossibilities. All electrologists well understand what the list of possibilities are for one having too much hair in the wrong places. Genetics, medications, stress, puberty, pregnancy, menopause, disease… We are always on the lookout for what could be stimulating hair growth.

Are you excluding the possibility that laser cannot cause more hair in or around an area to grow when many have reported that they never had the extra amount of hair before they started laser? Are you saying that it is just a well-timed coincidence caused by a hormonal happening? Why is there so many well-timed coincidences is my question? Is it only because of practitioner error as you suggested before?

The doctors whom you talked to still stood by their words ‘paradoxical laser hair stimulation’ when you disagreed with them and you remarked that you were disappointed. Why were you disappointed? It’s the practitioner’s fault?

I stand by my honest and unbiased parroting of what real life clients/patients report. Am I wrong to think that you are saying lasers did not cause these problems for the client , that just by coincidence their hormonal environment decided to change just when they started LASER HAIR REDUCTION ?

So many questions, I know. My hope is that I was diplomatic enough in my approach to you as a respected professional in your field. If my obtuseness is a problem, I would hope you could explain your points in other words to help me better understand your bottom line. The length of this thread could be a problem in that we have forgotten the original concerns.

#37

Oh, I will re-ask another question that I had hoped you would have answered above.

There are probably thousands of people doing laser hair reduction. Since you said “idiotic (laser) practitioners need to stop treating…” , I asked you to describe how long it takes to educate the doctors and technician laser specialists? You diverted with a comment about lawyers. I didn’t ask about lawyers. I asked about the type of training and length of training laser specialist go through. Last I heard, in my state of Ohio, training is 50 hours and it is taught in the local electrologist school as part of the curriculum.

You were unhappy about laser being applied incorrectly and called some practitioners idiotic. So, the conclusion would be that problems like increased hair growth after a couple sessions of laser, is caused by human error and if they were using the correct laser at the correct parameters, then there would be no hair stimulation. In turn, there would be no need for a thread on Hairtell entitled, 'REPORT LASER HAIR STIMULATION '. Thus, my curiosity about how laser specialists are educated. If you choose to answer, that would be most helpful because I really don’t know what the standards are for this industry.

#38

I’m always happy when I give someone a “hysterical” laugh … nice! (but probably a laugh AT, rather than a laugh WITH?)

Bias? Do people have a bias? The answer is, YES of course … absolutely! Simply being human gives us an inescapable bias in our observations and perceptions of the “universe.” The point is, will your bias make it impossible for you to make objective observations? Will your bias make it impossible for you to (as the “Laser Avenger” says), seek the truth?

TRUTH? Really? Have you gotten to that point?

The laser guy seems to be saying that the Hairtell pros are so biased that they are unable to make objective observations … let alone draw any semblance of a conclusion. Well, at this point I will add in all the adjectives that he’s been using.

Funny thing in this discussion is that, indeed, I have, without equivocation, observed L.I.T. I have not, however, observed “paradoxical hair stimulation.” Sure, I have heard patients and practitioners talk about this (in writings too), but have not seen anything that would lead me to such a conclusion … yet!

However, I don’t discount those that have “experiences” or observations. I don’t call them “idiots” or “ignorant.” The “truth jury” is still out.

And that’s the TRUTH! TRUTH? (Do I need to start a Novena!)

#39

On a completely unrelated story: A new TV series that you probably won’t be seeing … but should!

Called “Beverley Hills Cop,” it’s a take-off on the movie and stars Eddie Murphy (as the dad) and Brandon T. Jackson as the second-generation cop (action/comedy). The pilot was GREAT, but as I learned yesterday (from my client), the show was not picked up by the network (CBS)! Unbelievable!

The producers are now “pitching” the show to other media outlets (and networks) and I hope this one gets aired. Amazingly, the financers now have to pay a fine because the show was not “picked up.” That doesn’t seem right at all.

Maybe “we” (laser/electrolysis) should pay a fine if the hairs aren’t removed permanently? Seems fair to me.

#40

In any case, if anybody is truly interested in discussing what is causing this phenomena, feel free to contact me for more info. Continuing to contact the same people and achieving the same results isn’t getting anybody anywhere.