Questions from a man RE: Eyebrows

Hi Guys,
I don’t know if this is the correct place to post this but I wasn’t sure.
I have a mojor case of unibrow and have been plucking my eyebrows for the past 6 years. I’m starting to get annoyed with the daily touchups (but if I don’t do them I won’t stop rubbing that area). I tried Kalo and am living proof that it does not work. I just started waxing (with Veet home wax strips) and to be honest it’s not great. I can’t deal with letting the hair get long enough to wax and I don’t like the red mark it leaves behind.
So I’m looking to remove the hair forever. A friend of mine worked in a beauty salon for a few years and said lazer in the only method that works for good but they won’t do it on eyebrows for safety reasons.
She also said that electrolisis (sp?) doesn’t work but judging by what I read here she could be wrong. Can someone clear this up for me?

Also if electrolisis does work how much would I expect to pay to have the unibrow removed and how long (How many sessions) would it take?

Thanks in advance.
John

personally, i would go through with the tedious plucking (as i already do) instead of hinder my sight.

but that’s just me <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

the only permanent method is electrolysis- I beleave that it should run about sixty an hour and that you wouldn’t need tha much time but deffinatly check out the electrolysis forum and try and talk to James- both are very informative

Hi John Conway. I must have missed this post from Nov. 9th?

You would be so surprised and happy at how great you would look after even a couple treatments with electrolysis to your unibrow. Most of my men clients say it is not that uncomfortable to work there either.

It is a small area, so you really wouldn’t want to go a full hour. Thirty minutes would be acceptable. There is LOTS of hair in such a tiny area, so you must insist that your electrologist skips around to thin your unibrow each time. Leaving a few downey hairs in this area will still keep you looking manly, too. You have to stop tweezing and be faithful to see this out for 9-12 months. But the good news is, you will most likely look like you have no problem after 3 or 4 treatments, but you still need to continue on a well spaced schedule and see your electrologist for 9-12 months until all offending hairs come to the surface and are treated properly.

Why fool around with this plucking thing the rest of your life? Laser is fine for other areas of the body, but I would not let a laser near my eyes, no matter how protected they are. Tell your friend she grossly misinformed you about electrolysis not working. It does work quite well. Electrolysis WORKS PERMANENTLY or it wouldn’t have survived for 130 years! Find a professional electrologist with up to date equipment who has a history of success, and at the same time, is very careful with your skin.

This really shouldn’t cost much over the 9-12 month period and what is nice, since one pays for a block of time with each session, your money is spread out over that period.

If you decide to go for it, cease plucking and clip or shave, put in time up front to get that initial first clearing (or thinning) and therafter, actually get into see your electrologist when you observe any new hairs coming to the surface over that 9-12 month period. An electrologist with good equipment, speed and know how will free you of your unibrow so you always have that well-groomed clean look.

Dee

Thanks for all your advice guys. I guess Electrolysis is the only way to go. If only I’d found this site before wasting my money on countless tweezers (I kept dropping them), Kalo (Does nothing), Home needle free electrolysis (takes a long time and had no effect) and wax (have to wait for hair to grow to a noticeable length and even then I don’t trust myself with waxing the very edges)

dfahey-
I have read here several times your contention that waxing causes excess hair by rushing hormone ladden blood to the sight of the removal. I have done a great deal of research on this and havn’t come up with any clinical data to back this up- I am hoping that you can lead me to some of your sources. I have wanted to argue this point with you several times and I feel that I should have access to this information so that I am not misinforming posters or clients
thanks
autumn

I am very happy to respond to this issue about waxing, autumn. Yes, it is important to give accurate information that comes from hopefully evidence-based science,especially when there are 10,000 members that are registered to this website.

I’ll start with three sources that will explain where I’m coming from. Besides these sources, in real time, I see in my electrolysis practice almost on a daily occurence a common denominator: those women who started the waxing, tweezing, threading, sugaring rituals (or anything that rips a hair out) when they were teenagers have a real mess to contend with when they get around to seeing me for help. The hairs are thick, deep and dark and more numerous than the original problem before waxing and I have to use more current and more time to destroy those “monster” hairs. This translate into more pain and skin reaction to the client. These are exact quotes,but when the word tweeze is used, it refers to waxing, sugaring, etc.

Source #1:
From the electrolysis text written by Hinkel and Lind: “Electrolysis,Thermolysis and the Blend”,
Arroway publishers, California. This book is a major resource for electrolysis schools. My instructer called it the Bible of electrolysis training. Hinkel and Lind invented the Blend method by the way. God bless them!

Quote from Hinkel on page 8 referring to tweezing, but is applicable to waxing or any method than rips a hair out by mechanical means:

" Many women attempt to remove unwanted hairs, especially those around the eyebrow or on the chin by plucking them out by the roots. Granted, when a woman tweezes out the unwanted hair it does take longer to grow back than if, say, it has been shaved off at the skin level.
But what this woman does not realize is the fact that repeated epilations eventually cause most hairs to regrow more quickley and to become darker, coarser and more firmly rooted. Only a fraction of all tweezed hairs are ever permanently eliminated. Thus a woman who tweezes is simply letting herself in for greater hair problems than she had before she tweezed; rather than solving her problem, she is worsening it."

“As with other topical causes,increased blood supply is the cause of accelerated hair growth of tweezed hair. Each time a hair is tweezed out of its follicle,agood portion of the bottom half of th4 follicle is torn out. The damage is not sufficient to prohibit future hair growth but it is enough to cause the follicle to reconstruct itself a little sturdier with a better developed capillary sustem each time. the difference from one tweezed ahir to the next may be imperceptible, but, eventually what may have been a few lanugo hair will have become full-grown terminal hairs, bristling in defiance of their owners attempts tp evict them.”

Another quote from Hinkel on page 7:

“In response to any potential threat to the epidermis (skin)… nature has provided the body with an “ingenius” means of defending itelf. Sustained irritation almost always stimulates hairs in the immediate vicinity or the affected area to grow deeper and coarser, thereby creating a mat of ahir that covers the skin and protects against any further irritation. Wherever there is an irritation,there is an increased blood supply to the surface of the skin. When this increased blood supply reaches the follicle,any hairs growing from those follicles recieve more nourishment than usual. They therefore tend togrow deeper and coarser. It can thus be seen that anything that will cause and increase in blood supply tot the surface of the skin is capable of becoming a topical cause of hair growth.”

Hinkel and Linds information comes from researchers like William Montagna, a PhD researcher from Brown University who authored many books two of which are: “The Structure and Function of the Skin” and “The Biology of Hair Growth”.

Source #2 is another PhD, Dr. M. Sara Rosenthal from her book, “Women and Untreated Hair”. Dr. Rosenthal had an unwanted hair problem too and her struggles prompted her to research and write this book. Her bibliography includes research from several scientists, endocrinologists, dermatologists,etc. who are in positions to know the facts about hair biology.

On pages 38-39 she writes, " Blood flow helps to determine hair growth,which is why some people may have more hair on one side than the other. Plucking out a hair by the root through tweezing; or pulling out a hair by the root through waxing,sugaring or any other “tweezer-like” methods can lead to an infection of the hair shaft and curling of the hair into the skin. This in turn can cause ingrown hairs or folliculitis, which is an infection of the follicle. The folliculitis resembles acne, because it involves a pocket of pus. Tweezing will also make the skin feel under attack, causing to send blood supplies to the tweezed area, which only further nourishes the hair follicle. And that makes it stronger. Now in some cases, if you are lucky,scar tissue will form around the follicle area where the root was pulled, preventing hair growth, which is why some women may notice less hair growth when they wax or sugar (but rarely do they notice it with tweezing). Most women who wax or sugar are not so lucky and find that they have to keep repeating the process because the hair quantity remains the same. What’s even worse is that the hair may grow in coarser and darker with these methods."

“Since hair is designed to protect the skin from harsh elements, when you irritate the skin with hot wax or other hair-removal chemicals, the response will be to nourish the follicles with blood, too.”

“Here’s another problem: if a hair is tweezed during a resting phase, the tweezing sort of “wakes up” the hair growing process, and as a result the hair is stimulated back into the active growing phase. Waxing and sugaring can also pull out perfectly harmless vellus (fine) hairs, stimulating them to become coarser and darker.”

Source #3: Is from another book “Female Hirsutism: An Enigma” by Linda Edsell

Exact words pages 84-85: " Plucking or tweezing (pulling with force) is probably the first thing we think of when we want to remove hair. Women seem to prefer tweezing on facial areas because they believe it is more feminine than shaving. They erroneously feel it is the safest method to remove hair. Actually, plucking or tweezing is one of the least desirable ways to remove hair. In most cases it creates additional problems. It is definitely not a painless proceedure. Used repeatedly, it eventually causes a dermal inflammatory reaction and or infection. Tweezing does in fact increase the coarseness of the hairs and distorts the hair follicle. Eventually scars and ingrowing hairs occur from these distorted follicles, which make subsequent permanent hair removal technically more difficult."

“Each time a hair is forcefully torn from the dermal papilla, the resulting injury causes and increased blood supply to feed the germinative cells in the follicle and papilla. For self-protection, it follows that now they will rebuild a deeper, stronger, darker hair to replace the one you yanked out, (ask any woman who has been tweezing for a while). In all instances,I advise my clients not to pluck, anywhere but the brows.”

“Waxing is wholesale tweezing”…“all the negative things said about tweezing and plucking are magnified many times over with waxing.”

“Waxing the face can have unfortunate consequences. The fine blond vellus hairs discussed earlier become imbedded in the wax and are removed along with the dark coarse hairs. Repeated waxing of this vellus hair causes it to coarsen and eventually grow into a dark terminal hair. Since the face has a possible capacity of 1,000 to 5,000 follicles per square inch of skin, you could compound a relatively small problem into a real nightmare.”

Linda Edsell wrote this book as a practicing electrologist. She researched her subject at the St.Louis Metropolitan Medical Society Library and had input and critique from a few doctors.

You can purchase any of these books online. The Montagna books are very expensive, like $175-$350 for some that are used. My family refuses to get me such a thing for my birthday as I requested, so instead I get neat things like a Sears Craftsman cordless screwdriver.

Hair researchers names that I am familiar with are R.B. Greenblatt and William Montagna. You’d have to do your own research on those guys. The bibliographies of the above mentioned authors are replete with information if you want to get deeper into this yourself. There is probably conflicting information out there, but all this makes sense to me with my understanding about how the body systems go into action immediately when it is harmed.

Hair is very, very complicated. A short while back here on hairtell, there was a quote from an electrologist in Topeka, Kansas talking about certain enzymes that act as magnets for male hormones. I hadn’t heard that before and was glad for the input. With all that was quoted above, I really do see the end results of repeated waxing and I find myself pleading with young women like 13 year old mimi2 on another thread, not to even start this practice.

I hope this helped and thank you for your question,autumn, and I would be very glad if you could share any reputable sources you have regarding waxing NOT causing problems for the already hirsute.

Dee

I found a Montagna book for $54 on e-bay without the hardcover much better than the upper prices I’ve seen.

I attended a postgraduate skin care class earlier this year where an instructor stated that waxing is responsible for [color:“red”]DECREASED[/color] hair growth as repeated waxing can cause enough follicular damage to prevent continued hair growth. I asked the instructor if she could tell us about the controlled clinical studies that led her to that conclusion. She didn’t know of any.

Fifteen years ago, in electrology school, I learned that pulling the hair out from the follicle can cause [color:“red”]INCREASED [/color] hair growth. I asked if there were any clinical studies proving that point and was told that there might be and the subject was dropped.

I have not seen any data in any textbook that indicates a controlled scientific study was performed that led to the conclusion that addresses the [color:“red”]DECREASE or INCREASE [/color] issue.

If anyone knows of such a study proving that mass tweezing accelerates or diminishes hair growth, I would greatly appreciate knowing about it.

There are so many variables to consider that can effect hair growth: age, sensitivity to androgens, health, diet… and since we have our genetic and environmental differences, we will react differently to tweezing - waxing - sugaring and lasering.

Regarding the above post - the references to Hinkel, Lind and others are based on personal observations or clinical study? Did the teacher who referred to the Hinkel textbook as the, “bible for electrolysis” realize that one man’s bible is another man’s, um, opinion?

In any event, we do know that electrolysis does indeed decrease the amount of hair one can grow and with continued treatment, completely end unwanted hair. This has been tracked and documented beginning with Dr. Charles Michel.

It’s not surprising that your post graduate skin care class and electrology instructor from fifteen years ago went silent. There is a big untapped gap in hair growth studies and reputable clinical data on this issue. We all know this and thus have to rely on the different sources who are in the profession that study and observe hair over the years. Our sources undoubtedly need to come from the leaders in the profession if there are no clinical studies. Imagine this Arlene, a corporation or the government giving a federal grant to a major medical teaching institution to study the effects of waxing over a ten year period? It will never happen as long as cancer and heart disease keep killing people. If hair killed people, we’d have more data about hair growth. So, talking about the effects of mass tweezing/waxing from the podium of “show me the beef for clinical data” is not where we can come from. Instead, we gravitate to sources that collect hair biology data and translate that into books to inform us. Even if there were unbiased clinical studies with large samples, half would agree with the conclusion and half would disagree and that is okay. It happens all the time in other fields. So,in short, you will probably never have the privilege to appreciate someone for showing you clinical studies on this issue.

As I said, hair is very,very complicated and I am aware of all the variables that could possible provide stimulus for hair growth. It would be very naive and baseless to think waxing was the only culprit.

I will have to continue to rely on sources that appear to be respected and reputable in my field of work. Being that I’m always suspicious of things, I would much rather have clinical studies that eliminate variables,use controls, double blind over a long period of time with no political or monetary issue pressures, but again, researchers are not paid to research hair growth cycles.

If Art Hinkel were still alive,I guess I could call him up in California and ask him if his book was based on observations and conjecture. I will only say what I can about this: I respect his work as I do Dr. Charles Michel’s, Dr. James Shuster’s and Dr. R.N. Richards.

Your last words are so true about our steady old friend, electrolysis, Arlene, and reminded me of something Hinkel once said: “New methods come and go, but electrology goes on forever.” That’s cut and dry, black and white and there’s nothing to disagree about.

Thanks for your comments.

Dee

Hi Dee,

Your expertise sheds some light on a very debatable subject. It seems that a lot of members of this board have reported an increase in darker and coarser hairs after waxing, tweezing or epilating and that it does more harm than good in the long run. Does the same hold true for sugaring???

Are there ANY places that are safe to tweeze such as the eyebrows? I’m not ready to get permanent treatment there yet but after reading this thread, I’m worried that all that tweezing will do more harm than good, although I haven’t noticed a change there yet.

Sugaring can be put in the same catagory as tweezing and waxing because you are still pulling the hair out.

The eyebrows are a different animal. This is actually an area where tweezing is okay and can possibly do permanent damage to a follicle to cause it not to grow anymore. Scar tissue can form and interfer with the body’s attempt to restructure the follicle and bring it back to life.

Take care,

Dee

considering the amount of income generated each year from various hair removal methods and the fact that a major pharmaceutical company released a cream that impacts hair growth that was approved by the fda it is a guarentee that the studies have been done. The problem with anicdotal evidence is that it is based on perception, in this case visual, which doesnt take into account things like hormone levels and is influenced by other factors like emotion.
Every where I look there is contridictory information about the long term effect of various hair removal methods and without properly referenced scientific information you can only go on opionion and personal expierence.

as far as waxing goes
this is what I do professionally and to add a little bit of my personal expierence to the mix
much of the bad rap that waxing gets is based on it not being done well-broken hairs, cheap wax, and shoddy technique all create problems
what the esthetic texts reference, and what I have knoticed in my practice, is that waxing doesn’t permanently influence hair growth. The main goal is to remove the hair from the root continuesly until the the three growth cycles are equalized, occuring all at once so you have a dormant stage affecting all your hair at once- creating a longer period between growth cycles and the illusion of hairlessness. the side affect of this is that when you do get a growth cycle it is a doozy
just to add a little more info to the mix

Dear WAAX,

I understand the frustration that you have exhibited when you read unsubstantiated comments from others about how WAXING effects hair growth especially when their experience is limited to observations or the writings of “experts” and authors who make statements that are NOT based on clinical studies.

I have still not found any clinical study showing how waxing effects hair growth. Have you found anything yet?

A personal question on a professional issue: after applying the antiseptic to the skin, do you apply corn starch to the area, nothing to the area, or some sort of oil to the area before you apply the wax? Would this choice be contingent on the type of wax used? I have heard waxing “experts” make different suggestions.

Thank you.

It’s not surprising that your post graduate skin care class and electrology instructor from fifteen years ago went silent. There is a big untapped gap in hair growth studies and reputable clinical data on this issue. We all know this and thus have to rely on the different sources who are in the profession that study and observe hair over the years. Our sources undoubtedly need to come from the leaders in the profession if there are no clinical studies. Imagine this Arlene, a corporation or the government giving a federal grant to a major medical teaching institution to study the effects of waxing over a ten year period? It will never happen as long as cancer and heart disease keep killing people. If hair killed people, we’d have more data about hair growth. So, talking about the effects of mass tweezing/waxing from the podium of “show me the beef for clinical data” is not where we can come from. Instead, we gravitate to sources that collect hair biology data and translate that into books to inform us. Even if there were unbiased clinical studies with large samples, half would agree with the conclusion and half would disagree and that is okay. It happens all the time in other fields. So,in short, you will probably never have the privilege to appreciate someone for showing you clinical studies on this issue.

As I said, hair is very,very complicated and I am aware of all the variables that could possible provide stimulus for hair growth. It would be very naive and baseless to think waxing was the only culprit.

I will have to continue to rely on sources that appear to be respected and reputable in my field of work. Being that I’m always suspicious of things, I would much rather have clinical studies that eliminate variables,use controls, double blind over a long period of time with no political or monetary issue pressures, but again, researchers are not paid to research hair growth cycles.

If Art Hinkel were still alive,I guess I could call him up in California and ask him if his book was based on observations and conjecture. I will only say what I can about this: I respect his work as I do Dr. Charles Michel’s, Dr. James Shuster’s and Dr. R.N. Richards.

Your last words are so true about our steady old friend, electrolysis, Arlene, and reminded me of something Hinkel once said: “New methods come and go, but electrology goes on forever.” That’s cut and dry, black and white and there’s nothing to disagree about.

Thanks for your comments.

Dee

I guess some things are worth repeating. Did you gloss over this post, Arlene? If you choose to be skeptical and disagree with authors of electrology books and Ph.D researchers, then that’s the way it will have to be, my dear.

Being an electrologist, I’m assuming that you may have Michael Bono’s book, The Blend Method , 1994 copyright??? On page 160, he says, “Certain studies show that tweezing stimulates hair.” He doesn’t reference this sentence, but if you are this doubtful and wish to find out more specifics, you can call him or check out the thirty bibliography’s that he has listed, and try to pinpoint on your own, information about those certain studies. Maybe you’ll like Michael Bono as a source better than the other three I talked about earlier.

Let me now ask you to do a flip: would you favor us and share the sources and clinical data you are aware of that says repeated waxing DOES NOT stimulate hair to grow sturdier? Autumn’s daily personal observations tell her that waxing does not cause a smaller hair to become sturdier, so maybe this is all we really need to know. Seriously, I’m a willing, eager student and your credentials are awesome.

Dee

To simplify:
Does anyone know of any clinical study that concludes that waxing causes an increase or decrease in hair growth?

I know what the opinions are.
I asked if anyone knows of a [color:“red”]clinical study [/color] .

Well, that makes sense to me now as to why you keep asking the same question! If you ignore or skim over one’s posts,my dear, you’re not going to understand another’s answer to your questions. May I suggest that you grab a warm cup of Chinese herbal tea, cozy up to your computer and allow yourself to sit still and peruse carefully for the answer.

Refined and highly educated people like yourself, usually don’t insult and belittle their colleagues as you have done here on hairtell and the AEA electrolysis forum. Honestly, what’s up with the angry language toward your colleagues?

Arlene:

I see that you removed the last paragraph from your post of 9:49am without marking it as edited. I guess I would have done that too, if I had said what you said. It’s alright to express yourself. Free speech is for all. You don’t have to hide what you said. I really wasn’t feeling too bad about you saying that you don’t read my posts or you skim over them because you don’t want to muddle through lengthy explanations.

Since you actually use my name in your posts, you want me to read them however, as they are not concise or stick to the stated query, I lose interest in your posts. Then you get mad at me for not wanting to muddle through them. I read them enough to realize that you didn’t have the answer to my question, you had opinions. That’s okay, have an opinion but I don’t have to applaud them especially when I asked for factual information.

I administer waxing, electrolysis and have administered light based hair removal. Another poster here, WAAX, waxes. You are the one insulting us as you have stated on this forum that waxing will increase hair growth and you site textbooks to back you up when in fact those texts provide opinions and you try to pass them off as fact.

As far as I am concerned, unless there is clinical evidence on how waxing effects hair growth, all comments regarding this matter are based on observation.

If you want to pass off opinions as if they are factual, I will totally disregard your posts.

I have no further interest in continuing this insulting dialogue with you.

My pleas and concerns are for the clients who start and repeatedly wax the hormonally dependent face. If you had read my posts we wouldn’t be having this discussion. Any cautions I urged against waxing, relates to facial areas especially. I don’t think you or WAAX have to be fearful of losing business because of my references and sources because there are other areas of the body that you can appropiately wax.

In conclusion, I harbor no anger against you or anyone else. We could have been new best friends, Arlene, but your manner of approach not only towards me but a top-notch electrologist here on hairtell and the AEA electrology forum makes that much less desirable now.

Despite our rumblings and disagreement, I wish you peace and contentment now and in 2006.

Dee

Hi Dee,

I hope the New Year has got off to a good start for you! I don’t know if it’s a good idea to continue this ongoing debate on whether waxing/plucking hairs causes more hair growth or coarser hairs but I’d like to add some of my recent observations.

I plucked some fine hairs on my upper left arm during the summer with the thought of “really getting rid of them for good” but a few came back darker and coarser. I didn’t do this on my right arm for some reason and don’t have these darker hairs. Is there any reserach on hair growth being “symetric”–I mean ocurring on the exact same place on both sides of the cheeks or arms?

I’ve plucked the area between my eyebrows for a long time (over 15 years) and just recently noticed one very dark and thick hair in the middle–could this be due to excessive plucking? I have a few very fine hairs on my upper cheeks which are dark and really bother me but I don’t want to risk plucking them and having them mutate and come back thicker and darker–any advice here???

Take care!

smoothlover