Questions about Electolysis and Other Things

Hair Removal Methods Professional Electrolysis
#1

I’m a 28 year old male. I’ve been doing electrolysis sessions since August on my unibrow and my beard’s contour. I’ve also been doing laser on the back of my neck. So far the results are great according to my electrologist. I respond very well to both treatments. She puts the electrolysis current to the max since I’m able to tolerate it with little pain for some reason.

I’ve asked her these questions, but sometimes, it’s hard to know if the answers she gives me are old myths or based on facts/research. She’s also new to the field, so I’d like to get a confirmation from other electrologists.

  1. Does trimming hair between electrolysis sessions stimulate hair to repair the follicle? My electrologist tells me not to trim or shave hair between sessions because it will take much longer to kill the follicle. How can this be the case when hair is dead stuff (I’m assuming)? I’ve searched online, but answers and opinions differ.

  2. If thick hair has been reduced to thin hair, I no longer do electrolysis and I shave this hair every few days, does the hair grow back thick after awhile?

  3. After a number of sessions, if a thick hair that has become a thin hair and if I no longer do electrolysis or shave/trim the hair, will it ever grow back into a thick hair as before or will it forever remain as a thin hair? My electrologist says it would remain thin, but how come? Doesn’t the body repair the follicle?

  4. Does the beard cheek line increase in size (reaching the cheek area) due to shaving (shaving the vellus hair as you shave, which turns into thick hair) or due to hormonal changes as you grow older?

  5. Does plucking hair damage the follicle over time? I heard that it doesn’t damage the facial hair, instead makes it thicker (not sure if that’s true). But can it damage thick hair on the chest or back? By “damage”, I mean becoming thinner? If so, how long would it take to achieve thin hair?

  6. Question about laser (Light Sheer brand). I know that laser is permanent hair reduction. How permanent is it? When hair has been “permanently removed” by laser, does it mean that the follicle has been destroyed as well as electrolysis would (over time)? Is it ever possible that those hair follicles will repair themselves and reactivate, say after 7 years? Is there evidence that laser can permanently destroy and disable a follicle forever? I have white skin (category 3) and dark/dark brown hair.

#2

Some tough questions! This is one of two threads I was avoiding answering because I cant be sure I get the physiology correct, but unlike the other I had no one jumping in and volunteering/

1 ) trimming shaving just cuts the hair off at the surface. It does nothing to the follicle. IT’s an old wives tale that shaving makes the hairs thicker.What it does do however is cut all the hair. Some hairs, will grow at a slower rate than do the others.So if you are shaving the hair off then these hairs may not be visible to remove with electrolysis .

  1. same as above, no it does not. Shaving does not affect the follicle or hair growing from it.

  2. maybe, but likely not. Lets have a look at why a hair becomes thinner in the first place. Usually if a hair grows back weaker and thinner after being treated once, it’s because the treatment energy was not sufficient to destroy the follicle’s ability to generate a new hair. But some of the capillaries may have been destroyed and these are necessary to feed the hair. So they grow again, but are weaker thinner because part of the structure that feeds the hair is damaged.

If you look at Michael Bono’s video here:

It describes the regeneration process as to capillaries, but the damaged follicle may never recover completely keeping the hair thin. If only limited damage was done to the hair follicle it’s possible it could recover completely over time and depends how much the follicle was affected in the first place.

4 ) the change in the hair is due to hormonal changes. Again Shaving does nothing to the hair follicle and does not convert vellus hair to active ones. Testosterone works on vellous hair to change, shaving has no effect.Hairs are converted over an adult males lifetime from this process.

  1. Plucking is completely different from shaving/triming in that it CAN damage the follicle but it doesnt do so on the same scale that an electrolysis treatment does. The hair regenerates, but it doesn’t grow back thinner, actually the follicle reacts with the healing process and in the process makes the hair root stronger. So a plucked hair can grow back thicker and this can affect vellus as well as growing phase hairs. What it can do is distort the hair root, and this can cause hairs to grow out the side. They “find” their way to the surface eventually but some may become ingrown.

Long story short, plucking wont cause a hair to be thinner usually, but it might strengthen the root and become larger or cause it to grow out distorted.

I had a client here for a couple sessions a year or two ago who had plucked her face obsessively. MAny of the hairs I successfully killed with elecrolysis were mishapen. Some had grown into a J shape that persisted after the hair was removed, others were grown into a permanent corkscrew .

  1. Ok, as to laser I’m not going to speculate on the physiology, but I can tell you that 3-4 years after laser treatment I still have hair come in every couple of months. Fewer and fewer as time goes on, but yes it’s my experience that hair follicles affected by laser can not grow a hair for years, then suddenly decide to and this has been documented by others as well. I’m not overly enthused as to the effectiveness of laser.I dont think laser was worth it from a time/money/effectiveness standpoint but some people do seem to have better luck than I did. I’ve no opinion on the lightsheer I dont know the medium well enough to advise on brands/effectiveness.

You really seem to be overanalysing this thick hair thin hair. Try to remember the objective is to kill the follicle, not partially disable it. If the hair no longer bothers you because it’s thinner, then ignore it and treat those that do bother you would seem to be a better strategy.

Seana

#3

Thanks for the answers, Iluv2zap. Why do you say that those are tough questions? I think those are some of the most obvious questions that a client would ask. It’s unfortunate that there are different opinions about them, especially since electrolysis has existed for over a century. A few more questions:

  1. If change in the number of facial hair is due to hormonal changes and not shaving, does this mean that I will get more thick hair in the cheek area? I’ve been doing electrolysis to reshape the beard contour and reduce its size. Also, I had some random thick hair growing on my upper cheeks (start happening maybe 1 or 2 years ago), which prompt me to do electrolysis. So does this mean that more hair will grow and I’ll have to keep getting never ending electrolysis treatments? For example, do trans people need to do electrolysis constantly, if they aren’t taking some special hormonal medication?

  2. Regarding plucking, is this the case for hair on all body parts? I’ve heard that it doesn’t thin facial hair, but is it the same for chest, back or even legs? I ask this because my mom says that in the past, she waxed her legs so many times that hair now barely grows. Does consistent waxing (which I’m assuming is the same thing as plucking) at some point damage hair follicles to the point of not being able to reproduce hair?

I know I’m over analyzing, but it’s more because I’m curious about these things. If new grads still believe in these old wives tales (assuming that’s what they are) and tell them to their clients, then we have problem. It might even be rude of me to challenge her on this since I’m only a client who didn’t even study electrolysis and is quoting other electrologists.

#4
  1. When clients ask about shaving, I tell them to think about taking a carrot and cutting it in half. The hair itself tapers in a similar way, so it isn’t that the hair becomes any thicker, it’s just that a thicker part is exposed. This can make it look and feel more dense, but it’s still the exact same carrot. Shaving won’t stimulate any more growth than what was already there.

2 and 3) a thin hair always has the ability to be come a thicker (terminal) hair, whether that’s because it’s a vellus hair or a damaged former terminal hair, regardless of the method of damage. Will they all become thicker? Certainly not, but they all have the potential to, whether it’s from the continued or increased presence of testosterone or rebuilding of the follicle over time due to incomplete destruction.

  1. Seana already covered pretty well

  2. To echo what Seana said here, plucking can cause the follicles to be distorted over time, which causes an entirely different set of problems including ingrown hair. In my observation, about the only place that plucking seems to have the potential to cause the hair to permanently thin or stop growing in, is the eyebrows, over a lifetime of plucking. I’m not entirely convinced this isn’t related to the leg situation with your mom in question 2 in your second post and, that is, certain body parts, particularly the legs, will naturally decrease in hair over time too, due to changes in hormonal levels, blood flow, etc.

  3. I’m not looking to start a war with the laser proponents. Ask yourself what reduction means - does it mean one hair was killed (and thus the total number was reduced)? Does it mean one hair got thinner (thus, it was reduced in size)? It’s kind of a meaningless word by itself… and as for permanent, the FDA has determined that, since it SHOULD last for at least one year after the last treatment, it’s ok to call it permanent. So, again, like reduction, permanent becomes a rather meaningless word. I regularly see people 2-5 years after their last laser treatment, having thought it was successful, with a lot of regrowth. To wrap up, if you want to reduce your hair in an imprecise way that may or may not be permanent, laser is for you. If you want real permanent and assured removal, there’s only one option.

And for post 2, question 1) tying back into 5 above, the continued availability of testosterone in your body as you age will cause more and more hair to “turn on,” as defined by your genetic background. Whatever follicles are permanently destroyed with electrolysis will be permanently destroyed, but other follicles in the same area can, but won’t necessarily, eventually begin to grow. It might be the type of thing where, you go for a quick appointment once or twice a year to get rid of the new growth, though you may never need it.

Many trans women do undergo hormonal treatment that reduces their likelihood of continued growth as they age, though that is secondary to the reason why they’re undertaking the treatment. The goal is to lower the amount of testosterone while increasing the level of estradiol to more female typical range to lower their gender dysphoria and allow proper development of secondary sex characteristics to help them fit into the presentation they seek. The lack of testosterone often means a very large reduction in any preexisting body hair and halting the emergence of new facial hair activation (it won’t change any existing facial hair, at best, it’ll just slow down how fast it grows).

Generally speaking, this isn’t something you want to do, assuming you are a male identifying as a male, though there are options available from doctors to lower your testosterone levels without cross hormone therapy. Your insurance almost certainly isn’t going to pay for it and they can be expensive, plus you may find it hard or impossible to have children in the future depending on which options are taken. Weigh that in mind before you even consider such options if your only reason to consider it is to not have an occasional touch up on some new hair growth.

#5

Thanks, EmancipatedElect. That’s pretty clear. I agree with your comments about laser and had the same thoughts/questions about “permanent hair reduction”. If there’s a chance that hair will grow back 5 years later, I wouldn’t consider that to be “permanent”…

One more question. I do identify myself as male and have zero interest in taking hormonal medication. I’m just interested in maintaining the beard shape.You mention that I might have “go for a quick appointment once or twice a year to get rid of the new growth”. Shouldn’t it be more than once or twice since killing a hair follicle takes a number of treatments? Would it be more likely that I would have to attend a number of sessions to kill off a few handful hairs (assuming they do show up)?

#6

To wrap up, if you want to reduce your hair in an imprecise way that may or may not be permanent, laser is for you. If you want real permanent and assured removal, there’s only one option.

The bias in this statement is obscene. There are plenty of people who have gotten permanent removal for many years (see here: http://www.hairtell.com/forum/ubbthreads.php/topics/114258/1.html and here: http://www.hairtell.com/forum/ubbthreads.php/topics/114875/My_results_10_years_after_lase.html)

You (and pretty much everyone else here) has yet to post a single shred of evidence that the regrowth you see from laser is the same hair from laser and not new hair that the body produced over time. The people who experience the most regrowth and patchy results are those who went to places with poor technicians. If people would actually do their research and go in for sample treatments, they can get good results. This is no different than walking into any electrolgist’s office without doing research (example: http://www.hairtell.com/forum/ubbthreads.php/topics/112893/3_years_of_electrolysis_and_th.html)

In other words, BOTH can be extremely successful provided proper research is done.

Ask yourself what reduction means - does it mean one hair was killed (and thus the total number was reduced)? Does it mean one hair got thinner (thus, it was reduced in size)

The FDA website states that LHR is approved to “permanently reduce the total number of body hairs”

#7

It’s not so much about the individual hairs… those will die. It’s about new hairs turning on.

Look at most guys and you’ll see their beards have patches in them that fill in as they age, they might go from a little hair around the nipples and in the center of their chest to a full chest of hair as they age, from no back hair to maybe a small patch on their lower back to some on their shoulders as they age, etc. Or, in your own case, how you never had hair on the upper cheek before, but do now - this is the same process.

So, it’s a matter of killing the new hair that activates over time that never previously grew, not stuff that wasn’t adequately killed previously. There’s a chance that you’ll never grow any of that new stuff.

#8

Can it permanently kill hair? Absolutely. Can it be guaranteed to? Absolutely not.

You (and pretty much everyone else here) has yet to post a single shred of evidence that the regrowth you see from laser is the same hair from laser and not new hair that the body produced over time. The people who experience the most regrowth and patchy results are those who went to places with poor technicians.

So, didn’t you just make our argument for us? Nobody is saying that laser is certain to fail, just that it can fail and that it can produce results that were worse before it was even attempted. Whether it’s because of the technology, technicians, etc, doesn’t change the fact that we, electrologists, virtually all see people that have had poor results for one reason or another.

If people would actually do their research and go in for sample treatments, they can get good results. This is no different than walking into any electrolgist’s office without doing research (example: http://www.hairtell.com/forum/ubbthreads.php/topics/112893/3_years_of_electrolysis_and_th.html)

In other words, BOTH can be extremely successful provided proper research is done.

Would part of that research be getting informed that it is possible for laser to NOT produce the expected results? There’s no lack of marketing espousing about how great laser is, but the marketing never mentions that, and most laser places gloss over things like the possibility of paradoxical hypertrichosis… I have lots of clients that also weren’t informed that it wasn’t going to work on their white hair.

So, I stand by my statement that laser may or may not be permanent, which you have also confirmed in your own statement, yet for some reason, you have a problem with me saying exactly what you’re saying, just without the marketing gloss.

#9

Whether it’s because of the technology, technicians, etc, doesn’t change the fact that we, electrologists, virtually all see people that have had poor results for one reason or another.

And most of those cases are due to poor technicians rather than the laser itself, which is what your post seemed to suggest (I apologize if I misinterpreted). This is no different than having no results after going for electrolysis for years when the electrologist was only really tweezing rather than killing hair – you blame the person performing treatments rather than electrolysis itself.

Would part of that research be getting informed that it is possible for laser to NOT produce the expected results? There’s no lack of marketing espousing about how great laser is, but the marketing never mentions that, and most laser places gloss over things like the possibility of paradoxical hypertrichosis… I have lots of clients that also weren’t informed that it wasn’t going to work on their white hair.

So, I stand by my statement that laser may or may not be permanent, which you have also confirmed in your own statement, yet for some reason, you have a problem with me saying exactly what you’re saying, just without the marketing gloss.

The problems you listed are more on practitioners rather than the laser itself. If a client is not informed that laser won’t work on white hair (which is really inexcusable on the part of a clinic), then that’s not the laser’s fault when it’s not designed to work on that hair – that’s the fault of the technician.

The laser itself is permanent when applied properly in the exact same way electrolysis is permanent when done properly (and hence is not “assured” by any means).

#10

I’d like to add that I fully support electrolysis as well. For example OP, to maintain your beard shape, I’d highly recommend electrolysis. If you wanted to do your legs for example, laser is a much more cost-effective choice. Since you asked about permanence, it is very permanent given that powerful enough settings are used.

#11

Why would you recommend electrolysis for beard? I’m also thinking about removing some facial hair on my mid-lower neck area due to irritation. Laser would be the best option since I’ll be removing some good amount, but how can I be sure that my practitioner is competent enough and that I won’t see regrowth 5 or 10 years later? I see great results from her work and trust the place, but with laser, I can’t know for sure.

#12

I don’t think there’s any lack of electrologists openly admitting when other electrologists are performing poorly here at hairtell… all we’re doing, is pointing out that there are no guarantees with laser because, at least speaking only for myself, I see a LOT of people that had results from laser that didn’t live up to what they were sold and several that have severely suffered from paradoxical laser hypertrichosis.

Can we guarantee every electrologist is good? Nope… but it’s easy to point out poor treatment. With laser, short of being so undertreated that the hair doesn’t fall out at all, there’s no way to tell what is going to happen 5 years from now… not to mention the laser places that willfully mislead someone with white hair, knowing full well that the laser wasn’t going to work in the first place, into signing a contract that they can’t get out of.

I see way too many people that have been victimized by “experts” in the laser places* that only cared about taking their money… all I want is for consumers to be as informed as possible. If someone wants to learn more about laser when they’re in my office, I openly refer them to local laser places that don’t lie, just as I tell them up front what to expect during their treatment with me… so that if they feel I’m not doing my job properly, they should fire me (nobody has).

  • and yes, I’ve also gotten clients from other electrologists that were mostly plucking instead of treating, and, sadly, in the case of a couple, they had been going to pluckers for years without any real progress and that irks me just as much
#13

Why would you recommend electrolysis for beard? I’m also thinking about removing some facial hair on my mid-lower neck area due to irritation. Laser would be the best option since I’ll be removing some good amount, but how can I be sure that my practitioner is competent enough and that I won’t see regrowth 5 or 10 years later? I see great results from her work and trust the place, but with laser, I can’t know for sure.

As I read, you had wanted particular shaping. That’s hard to do with laser. Laser can certainly remove irritation (it did for me), but I had to decided later I wanted full removal and went to electrolysis afterwards. Electrolysis was also nice in that if you want to keep facial hair, your electrologist can make the hair from the neck to the jawline transition nicely. Your best bet to know your’re getting successful treatment is to look at the settings used (spot size, joules, pulse width). If I recall, the recommended treatment parameters were 25J+ and a 12mm spot size. I also find dermatologists use better settings than “medical spas”

Can we guarantee every electrologist is good? Nope… but it’s easy to point out poor treatment.

Sadly for clients, it’s not. One advantage in that regard with laser is that there’s actual numbers to compare (e.g. fluence, pulse width, etc.) so at least the client has an idea early on if they’re being treated at too low settings.

But I agree otherwise on what you wrote – way too many laser places care only about making money. It’s quite sad really. I certainly appreciate what you do – refer people to respectable places.