Question about Thermolysis

Hair Removal Methods Professional Electrolysis
#61

.Unfortunately , I’ll have to ask that if you have further questions you’ll have to direct them to me privately. I’m no longer posting replies to public inquiries, consumer questions, or DIY anywhere on this board. There are some that do not feel these contributions are of value or warranted and I’ve taken quite a bit of flak about it, especially in responses to the "Professional electrolysis " section. This is my standard boilerplate at this point.There are a quite a few here ( Dee, Michael, Beate, James, Josefa ) and others who would be more than happy to answer questions and are qualified to do so, and whose opinions are greatly valued by myself, and to whom your questions are better off directed.

Sorry for the inconvenience.

Seana

#62

Hi Dee, Michael, Beate, James, Josefa

Can you take a look at my last post and give your opinion? Thanks

#63

Rajneesh,
First I want to apologize for not getting back to you yesterday when I should have and if I came accross as grumpy.I really am not most of the time, but every so once in a while someone does or says something that really gets under my skinIt wasnt you, and it wasnt fair for me to be testy. I’ve taken some flak for posting in this section and am going to be doing so much less frequently if at all because some feel I’ve “taken over the board” and have complained about it. Both to other pro’s and to the board management, who 99% of the time are very hands off. I took this personally and I wanted to apologize if I came accross as grumpy or off-putting.

Your questions arent that easy to answer. Perhaps that’s why this question has sat for over 24 hours without a single other response other than my own. A lot depends on the level of skill of the person treating you, and the modulation they are using.

You cant determine the rate of regrowth. First, “Regrowth” isnt an accurate term. Some hairs are out of growth cycle so arent visible to be treated, but appear 3 or 4 weeks later. Others, may not have been successfully destroyed, but it takes 3 months or so for them to regenerate a new hair. I know it may seem that you can keep track of them, and note the location of their reappearance, but in fact you cant. There are approximately 20000 hair follicles per square inch of skin insome areas on the body. It is absolutely impossible to keep track of them.aA follicle right next to the one you just epilated may well produce a hair, but you have no way of knowing if that is one that was removed 3 months ago and by some stroke of luck had a couple germination cells that survived, or one that was just in a non-growth phase and came out a week or two later. Even if by some stroke of magic you were able to mark the follicle and identify the hair 3 months later, you still cant tell what happened. This is why there are such huge variances on statistics as to regards to growth phases for various parts of the body. You just cant tell if it’s anew hair that never grew before in a formerly dormant follicle, one that wasnt treated sufficiently, or one that was in a non-growth phase previously.
That said, if a hair does come out with little or no resistance, this tends to indicate that the hair follicle was sufficiently damaged so as to not grow another hair. It’s not a complete guarantee, but it’s a very good indicator.

The goal, is that every time you clear an area, the next time you go to do so there is less and less hair to kill. If this is happening, then your treatments are successful. Hair removal is a long process. At minimum, if you are gettting frequent treatment and complete clearances every time, it STILL takes a year and a half upwards to completely remove all the hairs in an area. In practise a hair shoudnt have to be removed more than once but a very small number of them may have a germination cell that survives and may be retreated 4 or so months later. There is however no way to determine from any factor, whether this is happening.

Now here is where I’m going to get myself in trouble with some of the pro’s here. Because strait up they will disagree with me. And I’m going to note that I am a DIY’er with limited experience, and that they are probably right and I’m wrong.That their experience has shown my theory wrong and they are right in pointing out I dont have enough empirical evidence to say this. . However I’m going to state it anyway.I have a THEORY that certain types of thermolysis have higher hair regeneration rates than most blend or galvanic. That theory is based on the duality of blend, meaning two modes of epilation chemical and heat. Bye introducing lye into the follicle my thinking is that it stays int he follicle and continues to work after the treatment is done thereby reducing regeneration rates. So if you are having thermolysis, and experiencing high regeneration rates you might try switching up the modulation and seeing if that makes a difference. It would take hundreds of cases to really know if this approach is effective though, so by all means dont take my word for it and get the opinions of others.I’m hoping Dee or Michael will pipe in here . They will undoubtedly tell me I’m full of racoon poop. And that’s ok.

Seana

#64

Thermolysis itself isn’t the problem.

If the electrologist is sufficiently skilled and understands their modality inside out, they will be destroying follicles at the first treatment with thermolysis regardless of the ‘type’. Some types facilitate removing with less extraneous damage than others.

Often it is better to go with galvanic or blend purely because it is not possible to find an adequately skilled thermolysis practitioner. This is why I had my initial facial work performed via blend.

1 Like
#65

Rajneesh questions answered >

If a hair comes out gently, what are its chances of regrowing again?

(It’s probably gone for good, but if there are some hair germ cells left, a new, but weaker hair will grow in about 6-16 weeks. Take pictures and observe your progress over time).

How many times a hair needs to be treated before it stops growing. (Probably very difficult to answer this).

(Once. If the proper intensity and timing are used and the the insertion was accurate, once)

I have considerably less hairs now from when I started undergoing e. So to some extent I can track and recognize them.
Reason I am asking these questions I still see regrowth even when I think they were treated properly.

(How do you know it is regrowth? Many hair follicles are just 2 microns next to each other. In January, one of those follicles may sprout a hair, but the one next to it may not sprout until March?)

Why are you worrying about this? Just get the area cleared when hair appears and within six months, you will know something good is happening. This requires patience and trust.

#66

Thank you Dee, you managed to say concisely what I was strugglng to convey . The most important aspect I think of this answer, is “Dont worry about it” . I sometimes think I am makng zero progress. But with each epilation the amount I am removing becomes less and less. This is the key to success, not whether or not one individual hair regrows.

Seana

#67

Hello again experts

I have few questions regarding my ongoing electrolysis process. I am currently seeing an electrologist in US. She is doing Blend with an Aplius machine.

I have past experiences with different electrologists who did Blend as well as thermolysis and I have watched carefully how they insert the probe and how hair comes out with minimum resistance.

But with my current Ex here is what I have noticed. She inserts the probe first time, its beeps 3 times, she tries to extract the hair. It resists/refuses to come out. She again inserts the probe 2nd time and then again tries to pull the hair. The hair still resists somewhat and but she extracts it with slight effort. It does come out with root bulb however.

Here is my concern. I have concerns with the way the hair comes out. I feel its resisting somewhat and that’s the not the ideal way of doing it.

I have talked to her about it more than once and she says that “people make a big deal of it. It still works…and the hair that you see is not the one that was treated before …” although I am not convinced.

Am I exaggerating/making a big deal of it. Is it a big deal or not a big deal that hair should come out very easily. Is she correct in saying that it still works eventually? Or should I start looking for another Ex.

She is certified Ex and there are no other issues regarding cleanliness/infection control. She uses a disposable probe.

#68

In the spirit of not criticizing other electrologists, least I get my arse chewed out, I will only speak for myself. I like the hair to slide out effortlessly, with a full bulb, no matter what method I use.

#69

I like dee’s answer.
I’ll add that I have never seen one of the professional electrologists advocating anything but a smooth extraction.
I’ll add that I dont like that she is having to insert the probe twice on a single hair. Its unnecessary potential trama to the follicle . If she knows it will take two cycles then it is very possible on the Apilus units to set a cycle of 15-20 seconds ( or whatever double what she is using now ) . Instead of having to take out the probe and test the hair a two handed electrolysis method would work.This method is described well even in the 30 page preview on Michael bono’s site of his book on blend.
I can tell you that when working on mens beard hair or neck hair that sometimes longer treatments than the 8-10 seconds you see so often touted is required to adequately kill the hair. I probably qualify as an overtreater though but I like to make sure the hair is dead and never coming back. Also getting the depth right on the insertion can make a huge difference in how much energy is required.

If she’s relying on Apilus presets, those presets are designed for women with much finer hair than mens. It’s a cinch to take what comes up as a multiplex setting extend the time and the number of thermolysis pulses to deal with the thicker hair.

Here I go all blabbermouth again.
Seana

#70

If one has to re-enter most follicles more than one time, then that means that either the timing or intensity needs to be upped. It’s very inefficient and costly to the consumer to constantly re-enter the follicle several times. Now I’m the blabber mouth, Seana!

Seriously, maybe she will figure out some useful and different strategies for herself. That is my educated speculation.

#71

I always understood that if the hair didn’t slide out there maybe plucking? is she not killing the root properly any experts.

#72

Yes, that is true.

The goal is to make accurate insertions and to use the correct balance of energy so as to " cook" the hair enough to make it slide out without any traction.

#73

Hello experts

I moved to a new city and went to see a new electrologist. I asked her that when she treats a hair can I expect the hair to be gone forever.

Here answer is that 'it depends on individual to individual but for a single hair, it takes several attempts/more than 10 attempts to kill it permanently because the underlying blood supply has to be killed.

Frankly, I didn’t expected this answer. I understand that hair needs to be in anagen phase for having the max probability to be killed, but to take several attempts was hard to digest.

I need experts opinion on what she is saying. Is she telling a blunt truth or she doesn’t knows what she is doing. She does blend and she also treated few hairs. She is certified.

#74

Hello Rajneesh, I am not an expert but I’ve read a lot of expert opinions. From what I gather.

  1. Treating hair in telogen is just as effective as treating hair in anagen.

  2. The hair does not need to be treated even more than once, let alone 10 times. Any regrowth you may see after treatment is probably attributed to the fact that not all the hair you have is present and visible on your skin at one time, so a percentage of your hair obviously remains untreated until it grows out. That’s it.
    Clients probably aren’t interested in hearing about hair growth cycles and they just see a hair growing in one general location and think it’s one that was treated and “didn’t die” rather than one that was untreated because it hadn’t grown/wasn’t visible for the previous treatment, electrologists can just tell them “those are the same hair we treated, let’s treat them again until they all die!”. If her electrolysis techniques are not very good, you could be seeing regrowth of treated hairs plus the untreated hairs mentioned above. But from what I’ve read, a good electrolysis technique will kill the hair from just one treatment.

So your electrologist is “wrong” or just avoiding giving you a lengthy explanation for why you will see regrowth.

#75

My electrologist charges me for full 15 mins (minimum time) even when, lets say, she just spent 5-10 mins (and removed just 5-8 hairs). How justified is it given that there is no guarantee that the hairs she removed will not come again.

#76

That’s what most of us do. We still have to use supplies and effort to set up for a session whether it is 5 minutes or 60 minutes. If a client of mine has been with me for awhile and requests a few hairs be removed one or two times, I usually don’t charge them. If it becomes a habit, then I follow the price schedule for a minimum charge, which is close to a 15 minute appointment.

#77

As far as the hairs returning, how do you know those are the same hairs and not new hair 2 microns away from the previously treated hair follicle? I certainly can’t tell.

#78

I know these are same hairs by the angle they are coming out of the skin. The regrowth hairs come at a particular angle out of the skin because that’s the angle electrologist extract the hair out of skin after they have applied the probe. New hairs lie close to the skin but regrowth hairs are kind of sticking out.

#79

Also, I have been undergoing E for over 4 years now. Is it not that all the possible hairs/follicles in a given area would show up over this period of time?

#80

As to them being the same hairs,this is extremely unlikely. You cannot tell by the direction of growth the direction a hair grows in has nothing to do with which it was removed from previously. If you had laser previously, then it’s entirely possible you are seeing hairs that yes, have not shown up in 4 years or its also possible your body is generating a few new hairs if your hormones arent right… I have to think in 4 years your electrologist has removed an awful lot of hair on you, have faith she can finish the job.