Question about permanency

Hi guys,

I had a consultation a little over a week ago.

The test spot was on my upper arm.

After the initial swelling went down, I got scabs at the site of tx (which is no biggie; was what I expected). Skin was blotchy throughout the week but has since settled down.

All in all, no adverse reactions and it’s been just a week (not sure how long typically we should wait to assess post-tx reactions).

My question is (and I’m just trying to clear up some mixed messages) - [b]if a follicle is treated and the hair at that follicle removed, is said hair gone permanently?

Can another hair grow out of that same follicle?[/b]

Is the appearance of regrowth simply another adjacent hair I did not notice?

If I were having my face treated, I could definitely distinguish between the treated hair and possible hypothetical regrowth.

However, since I don’t normally look at my arm hair - I can’t tell if the faint/light hair I’m seeing is ‘regrowth’ or a hair I didn’t notice before.

In any case, I’m just wondering what the definitive answer is here.


I’m stealing this quote from someone in the scabbing topic:

Electrolysis is hard to compare treatments like with laser, where you’re comparing levels of pain for one thing and then levels of shedding, with no shedding meaning it’s pretty much an unsuccessful treatment. Electrolysis seems so much harder to tell if the hair was actually treated or just pulled out.

If a hair comes out with little tugging, is it safe to assume it’s been successfully treated?

Or can a hair come out relatively easy but still not result in permanent loss?

We have said for a long time here, the best way to know how well your electrolysis treatment went is to take a BEFORE picture, and AFTER picture, and 365 days later, a RESULTS picture. While there are differences during the course of the year, most people don’t actually notice any change until 51% of hairs have been removed from an area, and it takes months for one to visually see 49% or fewer hairs growing back. This is because of the staggered growth phase thing the body does, where you can’t treat all the follicles in one treatment, because in most people less than 20% of available follicles ever grow terminal hairs in the first place. In the case of a female, it is often less than 10% or even 5%.

Thanks James.

I understand that hair grows in cycles, but since this was just a consultation I did not think of the long-term (1 year post-tx?) assessment. I just had a test spot. It’s been a week only, but it looks good.

My question was specifically about a single treated follicle.

Unless I’m misunderstanding you - I’m asking: [b]if a hair is removed from a single follicle following an insertion, is that particular hair gone for good?

Can a hair grow out of that particular follicle? Can a new follicle sprout up from that location again?[/b]

As you say above (right?) since hair grows in cycles, a ‘different’ set of hair may be visible to us simply because the removed hair that we were accustomed to seeing is now gone. What we’re seeing is not the removed hair but different growth that we just did not notice before, correct? That growth would eventually have to be treated.

EDIT #1: Nevermind! I found this article here that says

It is impossible for the electrologist to determine accurately these stages. They may be treating the hair at any given stage, however permanent destruction can only be achieved in the anagen state.

So basically, the client has to continue having treatments performed to increase the chance of hitting the hair while it’s in the anagen phase?

EDIT #2: Whoops, I see that Josefa commented on the article.

She says:

There is sufficient evidence or clues in the hair shaft which allow to differentiate between hairs in the growth phase and hairs in the resting phase.

[…]The hair can be treated at any stage of the cycle, with the same chances of success.

So I’m confused again! Are there any studies on this? I only ask because when I was doing some research on LHR-induced growth I found a very good academic study on the subject.

P.S.: I apologize for rehashing stuff I’m sure you all have had to explain to clients before.

Thank you LDLD for your comments.

I went to your suggested website and my first reaction was to the “total babe” in the photo who says she has “40 years of experience” (she looks no older than 20!). I’m guessing that she started her career when she was MINUS-20-years-old?" Or then, maybe it’s the cream she’s selling? Yeah, my blood pressure went up, but mostly because of what she had written! he he he

The following is the email I sent her (that might also answer your question):

"I’m a well-known electrologist with 40 years of experience and three textbooks on the subject (translated version: the electrology text in Japan).

The notion that a hair (follicle) cannot be successfully treated by electrolysis in telogen stage is totally false. This is an OLD traditional (stupid) misconception that never seems to go away. My main text was published in 1991 that fully details this subject; yet the old myths continue on and on.

I hope you do a little more study before you reprint misinformation (misinformation that is actually stated in many textbooks). Two myths that abound are the “anagen only nonsense” and the “breaking down process.” Both of these “old wife’s tales” are excuses for substandard electrolysis work. Please consider editing the piece you have written.

My Best,

Let me make this SIMPLE for you LDLD: a correctly treated follicle (by electrolysis) will NEVER again be able to grow another hair. And, that means “forever” … as long as you live: one “dead-ass” follicle … done, kaput, terminated and NO MORE HAIR PERIOD! Versteh?

And, a follicle can be successfully treated in ANY phase (anagen, catagen, telogen) as long as some sort of hair shaft is “pointing the way.” (I called this the “pathfinder” in my book; the term never caught on.)

About “rehashing?” Hummm, yep, I have been “rehashing” this now for 40 years. It’s sort of like “Creationists vs. Science.” I go with the science.

I talked to my old friend John Fantz about this. As usual, John had a great metaphor. John said: “Well, Bono, it’s like this. I can be 20-year-old or 90-years-old … if I walk out into traffic and get run over by a truck, I’m still dead!

Probably for some of our colleagues your books only serve to decorate the shelf, but for me, your texts are almost as indispensable as electricity that powers my machines.

I did my own study over 15 years ago, but since it was not published in a real scientific journal, the work has no real scientific value. But for me it has sufficient probative value.

Let me propose one thing: In this video you can see how all the hairs (except one) were treated in telogen phase (all roots except just 1 was a grain of salt, indicating cessation of activity.

This finger is the thumb of the right hand of a user of Hairtell, our friend Miro. If this woman is correct, all hairs except 1 will grow back. If Michael, I, and all other colleagues who know that this theory is an old wives tale are successful, the regrowth will be less than 80% of total hairs in the area. Do you say? bet to see what will happen when he returns in 3 months? :wink:

thanks for the answers guys!

im hoping to find an electrolysis I can do marathon sessions with

next semester im taking 21 credits so i could only do weekends (biochem, molecular bio, micro bio and lab, elementary chinese II, calc II)

so i just wanted to do as much research before investing myself in this :slight_smile:

The message that telogen hairs canbe destroyed comes though loud and clear…however…

Are you doing anything special to destroy these hairs? I quite often come accross telogen hairs, they are easy to spot, they tend to get lighter towards the follicle and curl like no other hair. But when I zap them I would say 98% of the time I hear the telltale “snap” of a breaking hair.And it doesnt seem to matter how much treatment energy I throw at them, they dont seem to come out nicely. I can have a ton of lye coming out of the folicle, yet they dont seem to “unstick” the way a normal hair does. I’m wondering what I’m doing wrong. I suppose it’s possible the follicle is dead anyway, but it just doesnt seem like it’s working right.


I’m not aware of doing anything special, Seana, except perhaps, insert the probe shallower. Use the right size and exceptional quality needle helps me avoid overtreatment in telogen follicles.

Probably sounds a bit repetitive, but I could not be doing this kind of Electrolysis at this speed and with this sweetness to the skin without a IBP. Without forgetting that the Flash of the Spectrum is definitely more comfortable at this level of speed.

Mhmm, as far as i remember Your results were already exceptional before You used the IBP.

Yes, it is also my impression that telogen hairs need shallower insertions. Sometimes so shallow that the isolation of the IBP will not come into effect.
I had this just today in the treatment of a lower leg (clear & wait, 3rd treatment, about 80% in late telogen again, nice progress, btw… I used a size 5 IPB because the deeper rooted hairs needed that. And some of the follicular grains were so thick that i needed more than one insertion around the hair to kill it.

BTW: telogen hairs are often a bit more sticky - even when treated the tend to show slightly more resistance upon taking them out.

Back to the original question: i am pretty sure that it is possible to produce false positives - hairs which will slide out “nicely” but not killed entirely. It is a matter of experience to get a feeling for this… So the hairs are basically killed permanently but only to the degree the skill of the practitioner permits. And that varies.

That is true, Bea. The kill rate is the same as with other probes. The difference is the speed with which I can now work on any area without compromising skin. The area in the video is the inner forearm, a very delicate area where overtreatment would have unpleasant consequences.

Would you say then that blend is less eficient than thermolysis on telogen hairs? The reason I ask is the shallower insertions seem to be counterintuitive. In order to get lye production you need to be in the saline at the bottom of the follicle, which wouldnt be present if you are inserting shallow.