A good electrologist knows how to vary current in order to get comfort AND efficacy. You should not have to worry.
James, right but you are assuming I already have a good electrologist <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> It’s quite possible, but that’s what I am trying to determine through all these questions.
So if she has her UC-2 set to 3 units of lye to reduce scabbing, does that mean that it will take more treatments for the follicle to ultimately die? And if yes, can we ball park a percentage increase in total number of treatements this may cause?
Sorry if these questions sound too detailed and I can accept if this is too hard to predict, but I know that within all of the expert electrologists on the board, you must have treated enough of type 4 sensitive skins who scab easy, to recommend some ‘general’ range of settings for effective treatments.
Thanks again for taking the time to respond.
3 units of lye for what size hair ( very fine, fine,medium,coarse, very coarse) and for how much time?
These kind of details brought to the internet are hard to answer. If your hair is being undertreated in order to keep scabbing at a minimum, then you may expect to see regrowth and re-treatment will be necessary. How many times? I don’t know. Electrolysis is more of an art than a science because there are too many variables to deal with. First, we have all the elements and hurdles of the sturdy hair to deal with, then, we have the skill of the operator. Then we have equipment issues. Some epilators are better than others. Some magnification systems are better than others.
Your practitioner can only do what she knows to do with the equipment she has. If that brings scabbing and other side effects, you’ll have to talk it out with her or see someone else. No one can tell you general setting ranges as that can vary tremendously with hair and skin type, modality, as well as, different brands of epilators. One epilator may blow a hole in your face at setting #2 OR… you may not feel any sensation with another epilator at setting #2.
Now I know you can accept, as you said you would, an answer that what your asking is not so easy to predict. I would love to answer your questions with smooth, concise answers, but I can not offer you that. I just know that type 4 sensitive skin can be handled well enough so you don’t have scabbing issues.
Thanks Dee!
I would say that 75% of the hair being treated is fine, 20% medium and 5% coarse. I don’t see her changing the settings when she does the treatment. She has a footpedal and I assume she adjusts how soon and for how long to apply that current when she gets to the coarser hair.
I understand it’s difficult to answer. I am just trying to gather as much info as I can to help myslef make the right decision, whether to stick with this lady even if it takes 20% more number of treatments overall, or to switch if I am just throwing my money away.
Thanks again for your feedback.
It’s been a while since I’ve had a chance to post, or even hop in and read what’s going on, but I finally got a break from my routine and did some reading this morning. I figured that I’d reply to the post where you were reporting the settings on the epilator and sort of expand on the topic for a bit.
In terms of units of lye, Hinkle and Fontz established a standard that one unit of lye was produced by a D.C. current of .1 ma for 1 second. They also set up a chart on how many units of lye it takes to properly treat hairs of different thicknesses and depths. The chart is something like this (Please note that I am a bit short of sleep and inadequately coffee’d up at the moment. I will review and correct this when I get to my office if need be!):
Small, shallow hairs: 15 - 30 units of lye
medium hairs at medium depth: 30 - 45 units of lye
medium coarse hairs: 45 - 60 units of lye
Coarse, deep hairs: 60 - 80 units of lye
From the formula above and the chart, we can see that galvanic current on a coarse, deep hair will take up to 80 units of lye for proper treatment. This means that if the tolerance level of the client is 0.5 ma, 80/5= 16 sec. to generate the lye. This does not mean that the hair will proprely epilate when the units of lye have been generated, but may require a bit of time for the chemical action of the lye to work. When using galvanic treatment, I have often had to use a technique where I treat 3 hairs, go back and epilate the hair I treated first, treat another hair, go back and epilate hair #2, and so on. This does make for a very effective treatment, but it is slow and the electrologist needs to keep a very good memory of which hairs have been treated and be sure to go back and epilate all of the hairs. No distractions please!
Now we come to the thermolysis element. Thermolysis works by heat to produce thermocoagulation of the tissues being treated. There is no chemical action involved in thermolysis whatsoever. Again, the intensity of alternating current is measured in terms of milliamperes of current. As we are dealing with alternating current, the measured current is the average of the signal. Once a setting is determined, the value can be entered into the treatment chart and that value used as a starting point for the client’s next treatment.
Note that I said “starting point”. This is a very important aspect of the treatment process. No one will have exactly the same hydration, tolerance level, or a host of other issues from day to day and hour to hour depending on temperature, hormonal cycles, etc. Each treatment require a bit of “tweaking” to get the desired results with maximum comfort.
The computerized machines, like the Apilus, express the intensity of high frequency in terms of energy level, eL, (Displayed as epsilon, capitol L) on the display screen. Apilus has also established a chart for treatment of different hair sizes which goes something like this:
Fine shallow hairs: 100 - 300 eL
medium hair: 300 - 600 eL
Medium coarse: 600 - 900 eL
Deep coarse: 900 - 1200 eL
over 1200, overheating and skin damage. (Well done, Ma-am?)
Note that fine, shallow hair does not include the fine vellus hairs for either galvanic, thermolysis, or blend!
Now we come to the subject of the blend. As the name infers, blend is the combination of both galvanic and thermolysis. The theory being that the generation of lye in combination with the heat of the thermolysis with make the action of the lye more effective as the temperature of the area of chemical effect will increase, accelerating the rate of chemical reaction.
Thermocoagulation will also produce porosity of the protean structures in the hair follicle and create a lot of motion of the lye, allowing a larger area of chemical effect, thus a more effective treatment with a lower total lye requirement than with pure galvanic current - in a shorter time per hair. The problem with the blend is achieving the proper balance of galvanic to thermolysis.
I’ve been told that Apilus has determined that a factor of 1/4 of the lye is a good rule of thumb for determining the amount of lye production required to effectively treat hairs in the blend modality. Thus, they have configured the blend modality of their epilators to introduce the proper amount of galvanic current and duration to generate the “appropriate” amount of lye and given the operator the options to use either slow thermolysis, flash, or microflash in combination with the D.C. element. The operator may also choose to lead with thermolysis and then use the galvanic or lead with galvanic and finish with thermolysis. There is also the option to initiate with thermolysis, generate galvanic lye, and then finish with a pulse of thermolysis. Complicated, isn’t it? This is why it is very important to actually read the instruction manual of your epilator - and have a good basic understanding of the actions of the modalities - prior to attempting to use the professional, late generations of computerized epilators. It becomes very easy to do a lot of damage very quickly if used improperly.
One thing to note with the Apilus machines. In the blend modality, the units of lye expressed are “equivalent” units of lye as they do have the heat effect figured into the equation.
How does this effect treatment? Simply stated, if an inadequate amount of lye is being generated during the galvanic phase of the treatment, there will be inadequate chemical action involved in the destruction of the regenerative cells of the follicle. If, on the other hand, if the thermolysis setting is too high, or applied too soon, the actual method of treatment will actually be thermolysis as, in the case of the former, there will be insufficent moisture left in the treatment area to allow the electroysis of salt water and the formation of lye. In the case of the latter, insufficent lye production will result and you are still treating, primarily, by thermolysis.
A rule of thumb that I was “taught” is that any blend treatment that is less than 5 seconds per hair, especially with the older machines, is actually thermolysis. The limiting factor being that at the higher levels of thermolysis energies, thermodessication will occur prior to the adequate formation of lye, thus negating the 4:1 ratio. (I would appreciate any feedback on this from more experienced blend operators as I see some room for debate on this issue.)
What does all of this mean?
- In the blend modality, care must be exercised to achieve the proper ratio of galvanic current to high frequency.
- The treatment sequence must allow proper time for adequate lye production prior to the application of higher levels of thermolysis. BTW…On the Apilus where the lead is thermolysis, the effect S/B a low level of flash or microflash at thermocoagulation levels, followed by galvanic and slow thermolysis. If the finish is also a pulse of thermolysis, this should also be at a lower level of flash or microflash. The object being to circulate the lye solution, not evaporate it!
Anyway, I hope that I have not created a can of worms here and that this information will not confuse or cause anyone any angst. I have been getting good results by these methods with a good degree of client comfort.
BTW: It is a good idea to follow either blend or galvanic treatments with cataphoresis. As this is the application of galvanic current with the opposite polarity, small amounts of hydrochloric acid will be produced in the skin neutralizing any residual lye, creating an unfriendly ph for the growth of pathogenic bacteria, constricting the capillaries in the treatment area (reducing the total amount of swelling) and firming the skin back up. This will promote quicker healing, post treatment.
My best to all,
Joanie <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />
Neither Mike Bono, nor I have a problem with what you just said. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />
Thank you James! Again you have shown yourself for the total dear and gentleman you really are!
Joanie <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" />
Dear Joanie, you are a fountain of information!! I admit I did not understand all of it, but it sounds like either I have my settings information wrong or I am being grossly under-treated. This is what I was told I was being treated at
13/14 computer units on the electrolysis side
1 and 5/8 milliamp on the thermolysis side which equals 3 units of lye.
Does this make any sense to you, or does my electro not know how to read the settings??!!
I am going to read your post a couple more times too <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />
13/14 computer units on the electrolysis side
1 and 5/8 milliamp on the thermolysis side which equals 3 units of lye.
It sounds to me like you might have the figures reversed here. The 13/14 sounds more like a thermolysis setting and the 1-5/8 milliamp equaling 3 units of lye is definately a galvanic value.
As I see it, if we use the multiplication factor of 4 for the increased effectivity of the lye, you are getting basically 12 units of equivalent lye, which places it on the low end of the treatment chart for fine, shallow hairs.
Additionally, at 1-5/8 ma (1.63 ma) you are only getting galvanic current application for about .18 seconds to produce 3 units of lye. This is not enough time for effective lye production, especially if she is inserting with the galvanic hot at the probe. It would appear that the main portion of your treatment is thermolysis.
As far as the setting of 13/14 on the thermolysis setting, without knowing anything about the machine she is using, I don’t even care to specualte about what this means in terms of energy being used to treat the hairs.
One question here. Are you being treated on your upper lip at these settings? If so, it must be awfully uncomfortable for you! I find that about the most that I can usually tolerate on my arms is about 0.75 ma - 1.0 ma The figure that you just cited is about 4 times the amount of current that I can tolerate in this area.
Joanie
It’s my chin (mostly) and sides and it does get intense at times, but it’s slow to build to peak intensity and I get enough time before the next to recover, so I am able to handle it.
Someone said in a post it should not feel like multiple injections, but that’s what it feels like to me, except for the finest hair.
The fact is also that I get scabbing and it sounds like we are overdoing the current and perhaps still not producing enough lye, so too much pain for little gain is what it seems like. Of course it could be that the UC-2 just has to work this way, wish I knew.
Thanks again for responding Joanie, I think the only thing I can do is keep talking to her, or switch and try another for a while.
Btw, when she treated me, for each hair she gave me between 3 to 5 blips. Does more blips mean that automatically the interval between the zaps would have to be longer?
Sorry I didn’t respond to this question sooner. The spacing of the pulses is not critical as long as the total amount of energy being released into the follicle does not exceed proper guidelines for the size and depth of hairs being treated. On the Senior II, the operator has the ability to view and adjust the total energy being released during the treatment sequence. The only reason that I vary the pulse spacing for a longer pulse-to-pulse interval would be to make the treatment more comfortable for a sensitive client.
Most of my clients can tolerate the application of power in a single pulse. I like it when this is the case as I can treat more hairs much quicker as time-per-hair is greatly reduced.
One thing that I have found to be a good guideline for the application of multiple-pulse microflash is that if it takes more than 3 pulses to gain release, Joanie better take a good look at how she is making her insertions. It is also a good idea for me to ask my client if they have been drinking enough water as this can also be a good indication of a poorly established moisture gradient at the time of treatment.
Joanie <img src=“/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif” alt=“” />
As a follow up question - since my skin is real sensitive, my electrologist had lowered the settings, to what Joanie thought looked like lower than the low end recommended for fine hair. Now 80-90% of hair that is being treated is fine. And I get no scabbing and where I used to get pain with most insertions, about half are painful, the pain also doesn’t feel wide and deep as it used it. The area on my chin at the jawline is the most sensitive and then the part that is furthest under the chin kind of touching my neck.
I have been treating chin and sides weekly for half hour for the last 6 months. A couple of the appts I had to wait two weeks before I could go in. In those cases, the next appt I did 45 min to make up.
I am at the point where the chin needs about 20 - 22 min if I went in at the two week mark, but at the week mark, it needs maybe 7-8 min. I still haven’t reached full clearance on my sides but we are close, I always chose chin over sides to distribute the time so sides never got enough time consistently. I think if I continue the weekly appts, and if each week the chin takes 7-8 min, then I will be able to achieve clearance on sides in the next two to three appts. What I don’t know is once that happens, how much time would it take to maintain clearance on a weekly basis.
I still haven’t started upper lip yet just cause I don’t have the time for one hour appts at this point plus my back starts to hurt at 40 min in the couple appts that went to 45.
So after this long update, the question is this, how much will the low settings affect my results. My electrologist says the low settings will still get results but will take more treatments. If this is true, I might keep status quo just because of the sheer convenience of it, I can go to her after work, and still get back and get my kids to bed on time. However, if effectiveness is not slowed but becomes doubtful, then I have to think hard about options. I really don’t want to upset this apple cart but also don’t want to totally throw my money away. Just as added info, I “hear” more hairs pop lately than I used to at the higher settings when I used to get scabbing. I really never “felt” plucking sensation however.
Could you pl comment and advise what I should be looking for or changing here? Many thanks!!!
There are many routes to victory. Lower settings should only effect the amount of time needed per hair, not how dead the follicle is to hair growth.
Thank you for the response James. So what you are saying is that as long as the hair is sliding out and not being plucked, I should expect the same effectiveness as there might be with higher settings? Lower settings just mean that each hair will take longer to release? So less hairs per treatment, and therefore more treatments. Am I understanding correctly?
Howdy hert9,
In your case, I would rather suspect that the lower settings indicates that your electrologist is now getting the shallower, smaller hairs in early anagen growth.
I have been getting clearance on my chest area for months now. As this is one area that I DIY, I have all of my info from each session at my disposal. When I first started, it was taking a setting of between 750 to 800 in the epilator’s micro-flash mode to effectively treat the hairs.
I am now on my 4th clearance of the area and I am now down to a setting of between 500 to 536 to get the hairs. This does not mean fewer hairs per treatment, just quicker epilations and less discomfort. The hairs I’m treating now can’t even be seen without magnification as they are just barely above the skin’s surface, with relatively little pigmentation at the tips - which means the electrologist’s ultimate prey - very early anagen growth hairs. I can now clear the entire area in under 2 hours, where when I first started, it would take me about 8 hours per clearing.
What this makes me think, if the hairs are being freely removed, is that you are now at the point of significant permanent hair reduction. OIf you have been sticking to your schedule, you are now beginning to reap the benefits.
One other consideration though. This could also mean that your electrologist is just making better insertions, which also means better treatments at much lower power! This should not mean fewer hairs per treatment, just better treatment.
Joanie
Howdy yourself! That’s heartening Joanie, I was just worried that we might not be able to kill the follicle with a low setting and if I was spending all this money for something akin to tweezing in effect. The reason we lowered the setting was to prevent scabbing and it did work well for that, I just “hear” more pops now than I did before.
I will continue with her and post another update in a few weeks.
Thanks!!
Hi everyone, its been a long time since I posted, though I have been reading regularly. I have made a lot of progress with chin and sides and it seems like I have about 30 min of work every 3 weeks or so now. Slower than I expected since it has been 11 mths and I was going weekly for almost 9 of them, but still good.
I just started my upper and lower lip last week and have had two 20 min sessions three days apart. I applied a numbing cream with 5% lidocaine beforehand and that helped a lot, but the treatments were very painful, and also there was quite a bit of swelling after the first one. She does blend at a v.low setting for me because of my sensitive skin but turned down the current even more because of the swelling. She uses a K3 stainless probe on a Hinkel UC2 machine. Hairs were sliding out really well she said.
First tx, I iced for about 25 min after I came home to help with the stinging and swelling. After the 2nd treatment overall swelling was less except for the corners which are still swollen after 50+ hrs, but I see a whole lot of bumps at the follicles and also a couple white heads at the lip line. I also have some scabs and we are far from clearance, so the whole area looks messy. I have been using witch hazel religiously and use aloe one time but its stings me so I can’t use it any more (its says 100% pure aloe but it has alcohol).
I certainly don’t think my skin can handle more than twice a week, and I really wish I could only do once a week to allow my skin to heal. I can’t imagine shaving on the face, especially since skin is so tender so I am worried on how to look presentable, take care of the skin and balance quick clearance.
What can we change/improve? Any advice would be appreciated. Thanks!
I think you might need to spend less than 20 min on that area. Most electrologists here don’t recommend more than 15 mins on the same area on the face. Try getting down to 10 min treatments. Also, the area will get used to the treatments after a few times. I find that a cortisone cream helps with redness a lot.
lagirl, I have been waxing weekly for years and years and so I have always able to present a clean face. I am afraid to shave my skin already chafing from the electrolysis, so I am trying to come up with just enough time to make me passable at 3 feet. I am very frustrated right now, why does it hurt so much when the power is so low…
Oh, and the redness is only on the scabs, the rest is bumps (not welts) giving the skin a rough appearance, anything I can use on that? and how to prevent that?