Probe sizing??

Hair Removal Methods Do-It-Yourself Electrolysis
#1

Background: DIY electrolysis, Clairblend machine- {using mostly “Autoblend” (therm/galv), not using “manualblend”}, doing male and female nether regions, dark hair.

We have been using the probes that were included with the machine (.003 uniprobes) I think these are a bit on the thin side as the hairs measure out at .004/5 (kinda hard to measure) and I think these probes are closer for arm hair.
So my question is how critical is it to use “the” correct size probe? I am thinking of getting 5s but dont want to end up with a bunch of probes that end up being too large to be useful.

On a side note I have noticed that the male “shaft” hairs are probably the hardest to effectively get- I am guessing this is fairly normal.

#2

Probe size (and type) is critical and yet often overlooked by both DIYers and “pros.”

My simple (crude) rule-of-thumb is to use a needle that is at least the thickness of the hairs being treated. If there is an “error,” I will error on the side of the needle being a bit too large.

It’s all about the correct distribution of the HF-thermolysis and the appropriate heating of the follicle to maximize kill-rate and minimize skin reaction.

Especially on the “Schnitzel” … a large needle is manditory.

Think about this. Imagine you have a Porsche (nice huh?) Then, you put “any old” tire on the car … and wonder why it’s not performing like a “Porsche should.”

Indeed, you would pick the right tires for your specific car AND for the road conditions you will be encountering. Snow tires when needed, and “slicks” for drag racing.

It wouldn’t matter which car you’re driving if you’re using crummy tires … it’s REALLY like that in electrolysis!

For the Schnitzel: find the correct tapered needle (but you can’t find them any more) … so “go” with the correct size insulted (my suggestion anyway). But minimum … the correct thickness!

#3

Can’t get tapered anymore ? We’ve been making the ONLY tapered two-piece needle since the 1960’s and still do

#4

Hi Mike,

You did send me some Laurier “tapered needles” some time ago.

They are not really tapered needles.

#5

I suggest you get out a micrometer and find out you are incorrect. Measure it at the stem and then measure it again at the tip. You will find a linear taper.

#6

Of course Mike … but an authentic tapered needle is not the one you make. The slight “linear taper” you are talking about is not significant.

Maybe you can post a photo of your needle here on Hairtell so folks can see what I’m talking about. That would be fun for all of us, and very helpful too.

The needles you sent me (I don’t have them any more) were labeled “tapered” but not the genuine article that I’m looking for …

#7

I would love to see the difference between the tapered probe Mike Bono uses and the tapered probe that Mike Roy makes. Both probes work well to destroy hair follicles and that doesn’t go unnoticed. Just proves the point that the are many ways to achieved permanent hair removal under the banner called electrolysis.

#8

Mike B., the tapered Hinkel probes are not insulated, correct? Since you do a fast blend, am I correct to assume that you don’t want to use an insulated probe so the follicle is not impeded and can fill with lye?

#9

Mike R., do you recommend not using an insulated probe for blenders?

#10

Somewhat Dee, but actually a perfectly straight needle works perfectly for DC lye production. The tapered needle (maybe we need to change the name?) is only for modifying the HF-thermolysis pattern.

Most people that use tapered needles don’t use them correctly so they see no difference. I’m going to have Eric take a photo of one of my last Hinkel-type probes to highlight the “funnel-shape” that is the heart of using tapered needles correctly.

The history of these needles is also fascinating …

#11

The Laurier taper is designed to closely match the natural taper of the follicle. A one-piece needle does not do that. The taper also aids insertion of the smaller tip sizes.

No Dee, I do not recommend any insulated needle or probe for “classic” or slow blend. That method depends on the production of lye and the insulation becomes self defeating due to the reduced conductive surface area. For fast blend where the RF is doing most of the work, the IBP works quite well.

#12

I’ll get back with a full explanation of this emerging “issue.” But for now, the purpose of a tapered needle is not to “fit” the "natural taper of a follicle, but to introduce an “unnatural” shape to maximize HF efficiency. Besides, a follicle is not “cone shaped” or naturally “tapered.” I have looked at thousands of follicles under the microscope (during hair transplant surgery) and there is no “taper” to a follicle.

#13

You have said it many a times that most people use tapered needles incorrectly. But since you’re running out of your last treasured tapered needles, you should take photos and better yet videos for us to show proper insertions with tapered needles. Even if most of modern electrolysis today wouldn’t look back at tapered needles at all, it would be fun to document history for educational purposes.

#14

I want to point out that my opinions and “criticisms” have nothing to do with anything on ANY personal level at all. My fervent belief is that we only progress forward when we are 100% neutral on a personal level … but fearless to point out either misdeeds or products that could use improvement. Below, I’m criticizing two of my most beloved friends …

Moisture gradient: Hinkel’s book talks about a “moisture gradient” in the skin, i.e., allegedly wetter in the deeper tissues, and progressively dryer in the upper tissues. This is a fallacy. (I learned this reality from plastic surgeons and dermatologists). Pretty much only the super-thin epidermis is “dryer” (inconsequential for electrolysis) and, for the most part, you can toss out this entire “moisture gradient” notion.

Papilla location: Hinkel’s book misinterpreted an “incorrect” drawing by William Montagna (in his landmark book on the skin). I know this, because Montagna himself told me his drawing was wrong. He was stunned and apologetic (yes, I questioned his drawing with my big fat mouth!). Consequently, for years people assumed that the papilla remains at “full anagen depth” (got confused about this “dermal cord” business) as the hair goes through various growth stages. Not so! And, that’s another error that won’t die easily. (And, probably at the heart of the killing “anagen only” silliness?)

Progressive epilation: Hinkel said that hairs “progessively” lift out of the follicle. Again, not so at all. Once your currents have reached the anchor, the hair slides out quickly; there is nothing gradual about how hairs “release.” I did keep Hinkel’s term in my book, but tried to switch the name to “two-handed technique,” because there is no “progressive epilation.”

All these errors remain in Hinkel’s text … and “the beat goes on!”

Ballet tips: My photo, the other day, showed the dreadful needle tip of Ballet tapered needles: blunt and difficult to insert (as opposed to the Laurier tip that is beautiful; and you can see this in the photo). I also spoke to Jim Paiser about this difficulty and he said he reported it to the factory. (I had just bought 3 packets of these, and they are nearly unusable). Note, Jim is one of my most beloved friends!

The point is that I’m an “equal opportunity pain in the butt.” My criticism has absolutely nothing to do with my feelings for anyone … I only wanted to point that out.

I will put together a little explanation of the tapered needles (with a good photo). Interesting that the “real item” was hand-made (drawn) on a jeweler’s lathe and there were TWELVE sizes. (I’ll try to make it short!)

#15

And, I will bet you “dollars to doughnuts” that I have a bunch of incorrect information in my books too. Writers often accept information from earlier books … and so errors and myths are continued on-and-on.

I need to look at “them suckers” and start re-writing. Remember, because something is “in a book” does not therefore make it absolute truth.

Hey, even God Himself got to do a “re-write!” You know the “Old Testament,” and the re-write … the “New Testament?” If God can be humble in his statements … I suppose we can be too?

#16

So how do you go about sizing the correct size probe? I do have a micrometer and caliper…and that seems easy/logical and maybe overkill on regular hairs. But how do you determine between a 4, 5, 6 when dealing with “curly hairs”?

Maybe the taper ones that you have Michael could be called “conical probes”?

Schnitzel lol that brings back memories of my childhood.

#17

The original tapered needles were ground (pulled) using a jeweler’s lathe; then hand polished. The needle had a slight taper to the blade (like Laurier), but most importantly, a funnel shape (or wedge) that is the key to its design.

The properly made “wedge” was inserted down into the follicle itself. As you know, thicker needles are colder … and the HF current rise is therefore “slower” when it reaches the thicker part.

The angle of the wedge is important: too oblique and the effect is lost; not enough angle and you can’t insert the wedge. (I’m being very brief here and not technical so this doesn’t become an epic post!)

Those using blend or manual thermolysis (and some autos) were trained to select a needle that would fit precisely in the follicle. There were 12 sizes and finding the right one was not difficult. Picking a needle was done by “eye,” and you actually can get REALLY good at it.

I prefer tapered over insulated because I have active current on the bare needle with a graduated HF temperature variance. In this way, I simply wait until current has reached the anchor (and all the growth elements) and then remove the hair. (Needle is kept in the follicle for the last “few seconds” of DC).

The wedge design “buys me more time” and allows me accurate current placement. With insulated needles, the current placement is limited ("Plus & Minus; “off & on”) and I’m not exactly sure where the HF has been placed. With tapered, there is no question.

The death of the tapered needle was caused by mandatory sterile/disposable needles. Hand-made was out of the question. Modern techniques making these needles involve a graduated acid-etching procedure and it works sort-of okay.

Larry Douglas (Washington) was the last to hand-make these needles (but horrible to deal with). The Japanese company that made the Hinkel probes (only three sizes! burned down. Ballet sizes are not quite right and the tips are nasty.

I think most of you would “go tapered” if you had lots of good ones and the time to use them. You need a lot of time and experience before you make any decision on anything. Probably not going to happen.

Photos coming in the next post

#18


Above: (“Hinkel-type”) Tapered needle. Note the “wedge shape” where the blade transitions into the shaft. It is this wedge that is the hallmark of the tapered needle. This wedge is inserted down into the follicle.


Above: Tapered needle tip on the “Japanese made”-Hinkel “large” needle.


Above: Transition point between (tapered) blade and needle shank. The upper half, or more, of the “wedge” is commonly inserted into the follicle.


Above: Shaft of tapered needle. You see some distortion, but this is from the microscope.

#19

Actually, the Ballet tapered are pretty decent … I used one tonight (beard case) and got the results I was looking for. My hope is that Jim will consider fiddling with the sizes and improve the tips.

Since tapered needles are not his “biggest seller” there is little enthusiasm for the expense of re-tooling. However, if these become a “hit” … well, there it is!

Everything is “economics” isn’t it?

#20

Additionally, the first photo makes the needle look a bit fatter than it actually is, because there is a shadow (below the needle) … my nephew Eric took the photo with some very basic equipment.