My spirits are broken...another LHR reject :(

Hair Removal Methods Laser hair removal
#1

Over a year ago I began laser hair removal treatments on my back, shoulders, neck and upper arms. At the time, my back had to large “wings” of hair, my shoulders were pretty much bare with a few stranglers growing and I had a line of hair on my upper arm that connected my back hair to my lower arm hair.

I ended up selected a dermatology practice in Dallas, Texas for my Laser Hair Removal (LHR). The reason being was the nurse/technician had like 8 years + of experience, and the price was acceptable (relative to a $4500 package price from Ideal Image). $400 a session covered the entire treatment area.

The Alexandrite laser, GentleLASE was used on me starting at around 14 joules and working up to about 20.

Unfortunately they only did LHR the last Thursday of every month so for the first three (3) treatments, I went in consecutive months. The pain was almost unbearable, but after it was over and the shedding began, I had completely smooth and bare skin. After the 3rd treatment, I waited 8 weeks, then 8 weeks again, then 12 weeks. During those 8 and 12 week periods however, my hair was growing back, all of it. By my 6th treatment I was very discouraged. It seemed like with each treatment, it was working less and less.

Not only do I seem to have the same amount of hair, but I actually experienced INDUCED GROWTH on my shoulders, upper arms, back and neck. My shoulders and upper arms are covered in hair now and i have to shave my neck down to my chest now. I was very upset. The doctor and nurse told me that is was just my hormones growing new hair and that there is no way the laser could induce growth. I was so mad. I’m not expert, but I find it hard to believe my homones decided to kick in within an 8-12 month period. Yes, I’ve become hairier as I’ve aged but not a night and day difference over 12 months like I’ve experienced this time. I do have thinning hair on the top of my head, and I’m hairy pretty much all over my body (chest, butt, legs, arms).

I’m 26, light skinned with thick black hair. I will post some pictures so you can see what I’m talking about.

Am I missing something here? I felt completely hopeless. I find it hard to believe i’m that .001% of people who don’t respond at all. Now I’m debating taking Propecia (and losing all sex drive and ability to get erections), electrolysis (spending my entire life’s savings and free time), or trying other clinics. I’ve even thought about trying Syneron’s eLight machine which is an IPL.

I know everyone seems to agree that Alexandrite lasers like the GentleLASE are superior to IPL’s but I just don’t know what to do.

Should I continue trying the GentleLASE. Was 6 treatments not enough to see a differnce? Why did I experience induced growth? Should I combine propecia with laser? Is electrolysis a viable option for such a large area? I have so many questions, so many frustrations.

Thank You all for your time and advice.

-Jimmy

#2

Sorry for the struggle you went through all along. My past has striking similarity to yours, so I deeply sympathize you.

I should tell you that I tried out Propecia for the purpose of thinning out my body hair. I used it for around a year, not only it didn’t help me suppress the hair but it also debilitated me. I felt like I became psychologically more vulnerable.

My alleged reason to use Propecia (actually Proscar: I split one pill into 3 or 4) was to restore my balding on the head, but the actual reason was the body hair, so I put my balding forward as an excuse to use Proscar since no one would understand. I discontinued the use after seeing no results.

#3

I’m always really surprised when people talk about induced growth. The only LHR experiences I’ve had are with diode lasers, and they’ve always produced some sort of inhibition. Maybe your laser settings were too low, or you just don’t respond to a GentleLASE?

I’d find a clinic that specializes in LHR using a diode laser and get a test patch done on a fluence above 25.

I’d also recommend some Lidocaine-based analgesic to reduce the pain. I’ve changed from EMLA to “Lido 4%” which is about half the cost, documented on my results page in my signature.

Good luck!

#4

All lasers can induce hair. It does happen, mostly in men and the areas that you had treated. Starting out at 14j is common in the industry, most practitioners dont want to scare you away the first time.

I would negotiate with your clinic and try to get a steep discount or free service until the hair is removed. Hormones do cause new growth but not overnight, or a year. If they are resistant get a lawyer. Too many people operating a laser should not be. Induced growth phenomenon has been well discussed within the LHR professional community. If your practitioner doesn’t know about it they are either lying or not educating themselves often enough. I have attended two conferences in the last 6 months and they both discussed induced hair growth.

Male pattern baldness is going to cause you to have a good amount of body hair. You already know the warnings about Propecia. The hair can be removed with continued treatments, EMLA or lido 4% as mentioned above is a great idea.

Good luck

#5

Yeah I started at 14j, then 16j and worked up to 18-20joules. I honestly felt like the higher settings didn’t work as well, though I know that makese no sense.

I think my pracitioner was lying. I honestly felt like I was dealing with a used car salesman. They told me everything I wanted to hear up front to sell me but then when I didn’t get results, they pretty much played dumb and blamed it on me.

I’m too scared now to take Propecia and I’ve already been highly suceptable to Psycho-Physiological effects of other drugs so I’m pretty worried it would cause problems for me.

I really wish I could negotiate with the Dermatology practice I went to but I don’t think I’ll have any luck. The dermatologist himself seems pretty arrogant and uninterested in my problem. He just pockets the profits from the service. I’d like to go somewhere else, but I haven’t been able to find anyone who can beat that price.

PDeco1, when you said the hair can be removed with continued treatments, do you mean in conjunction with Propecia? And do you suggest sticking with an alexandrite laser like GentleLASE or should I try out IPL?

#6

Hi SlimJim,
Sorry to hear about your bad experience. The first three treatments you went back too early. You should wait until you have some hair to treat. After it sheds and then wait the new set of hair to grow. (Only 30% is visible at any given time). When spaced properly (and using good settings), you should see a progress after each treatment, and especially after the third. 14J is low. They used 18mm spot size I suppose. You should have tested a small area first with higher settings, and if your skin can handle it go from there. Shoulders and upper arms should not be treated if the hair is not dark and coarse. Which in most cases is not. I don’t really think IPL is a good idea. But there are many experts here, and I hope they’ll give you more professional advice.

#7

Thanks Pavel. Yeah I’m interested in seeing what some of the moderators have to say.

With respect go doing the 3 treatments back to back. I did have quite a bit of hair grow back in that one month time period in between treatments. My hair grows very fast. I shaved last week and the hair is almost half a centimeter in length already.

Yeah I think the majority of the hair on my shoulders was not dark and course, only a few were. Now all of the hair is dark and course. So is this a perminant condition? Will the hairs thin and lighten with time?
If they do stay that way, will the laser be more effective on them?

Thanks everyone for your input.

#8

Stick with an Alexandrite. An IPL is not as effective. I dont think Propecia is going to help.

With future treatments you can achieve a reduction, it is more difficult now as your chasing the hair growth cycles.

Higher joules are needed to destroy the hair. The first couple treatments should be treated with 18mm and 20j. 15mm and higher joules is needed to target the finer hair beyond that.

#9

A man’s back and women’s faces can be toughest area for the laser to reduce the hair. Unfortunately, the laser stimulating fine hair’s into coarser, darker hair is not too uncommon :frowning:

To combate this problem with back, the settings need to be as high as your skin can take (not your pain threshold) without blistering or scabbing. Make sure you have ZERO tan for your treatments. Also a man usually needs approx. 15 treatments for a significant difference. 12 weeks is a good time to come back. If you noticed the results were going down, then the energy must go up (unless your skin type prevents it). The settings should always be increased each treatment until the max. for your skin type/tan.

Once the hair shaft has been thinned (even tho it can still be long in length) and the laser no longer has effect. Its time to go to electrolysis if you want to clear the area. Laser will most likely never give one full clearence once done all treatments.

Complain to the technician/doctor some more and you might get a few more treatments for free since you bought a package and actually had more hair at the end of your treatments. If they say no, go elsewhere. Try a diode since the penetrating depth is slightly deeper than alexandrite. Some back hair roots can be deeper than the laser can reach.

If you go to another laser place tell them you want to have your 1st treatment with higher energy and at the consultation insist on test patches on your back with at least 3 spots of high energies.
Goodluck with everything.

#10

That was a great post. Very honest stuff from what I have come to learn over the years about lasing a man’s back as I stand on the sidelines as an observing electrologist. Fifteen treatments sound pretty close to what I have heard from fellow laser practitioners. Fifteen treatments every 12 weeks means one will finish in 3.5 years at a cost of $6,000. Three and a half years is not exactly the ‘quick and easy’ that the public has come to expect from the glossy laser ad’s.

Those man hairs are very deep in deed. As a practicing electrologist who routinely performs PicoFlash thermolysis on male back hair, neck hair and chest hair, I have to use the largest diameter probe possible and I need to insert the full length of the probe, deep into the follicle to destroy the tissue that helps feed hair. The hair is indeed tough and deep, but it releases easily when all factors are present for good electrolysis care. My clients come two or more hours a week for several months and are usually fnished in 14 to 24 months. Cost varies with speed of the electrologist and what she/he charges per hour. Sessions are shorter at the end when there is less hair to treat. Hair by hair is really not so slow if you have a skilled electrologist that knows how to to insert a probe well and knows how to uses MicrFlash or PicoFlash thermolysis with one of the better brand epilators on the market today. It’s actually a very satisfying way to remove hair.

If every electrologist would adjust up to the newer technology available and learn it well, clients may choose a method that assures that enough energy gets to the bottom of those deep man hairs. If laser could just reduce half of the hair on a man’s back permanently, then that would be less time on the table to finish up with electrolysis. That would be a good plan to pursue.

You described the doctor as arrogant? I’m thinking he’s silent and appears unsympathetic because he has invested in a good laser, insurance and personel and trusted the sales rep and now he TOO is disheartened by the lack of results he is seeing for his patient. He spent money to get this set up and he may be thinking it is more trouble than it’s worth. You don’t know how many other complaints he has had and he may be thinking, “I don’t need this crap!”. I have come across many doctors who have gotten out of the laser hair reduction business because they don’t have the patience or time to handle complaints.

I agree with CareBear hair’s post. Great advice and may be worth another try for you under another game plan.

Dee

#11

The reason I thought the doctor seems arrogant was that he denied the possibility that the laser treatments could have caused the hair on my shoulders and arms to be more visible (darker, thicker) and said that it was my hormones. He didn’t offer the treatment at a lower price or any kind of refund. He just sort of brushed me off.

When I first had my consult with them, they were not realistic in their promises. They made me feel that I was a perfect candidate, that I could finish well under $3000 and that I can easily expect 75% reduction after just 6 treatments. From what I’m reading those were very unrealistic expectations, and if that’s true, that’s just bad business. But I guess I shouldn’t be surprised.

I may try one more time to negotiate with them. I was paying $400 a session, perhaps I can get down to $300.

#12

It’s unrealistic that doctor’s, laser reps or laser providers, in general, deny that there is such a thing as laser hair stimulation. This appears to be a pretty common complaint for certain areas in the the years I have followed several hair removal boards. Perhaps I am being too harsh toward the good doctor, but I still can’t discount that he may be kicking himself a little bit and prefers to deny that a phenomenon called laser hair stimulation exists. If you are the first one he has witnessed, then maybe the second one that complains about more hair showing up will cause him to pause and think there maybe something to your complaint.

So you are going to reward him with more business if he drops the price?

#13

It sounds like your first 3 treatments were spaced too close together and had relatively low settings (and if they didn’t use an 18mm spot size, they were definitely too low. can you find out the spot size?). So that’s the first problem. Technically, you only received about 2-3 good treatments at most. The second problem is treating hair that’s not dense and very coarse, which caused induced growth. If you want to educate them on the issue, you can print out an article online and bring it to them. It’s really their fault for not educating themselves on this issue. This is why we prefer places where those who treat you have extensive experience and interest in LHR specifically, not a general dermatology office where they don’t have time or desire to attend conferences etc to learn about the latest in the industry. Then, I would negotiate future free treatments based on this. With your skin type, you shouldn’t have a problem being treated at 18-20J on 18mm it sounds like. If they can use 20J without side effects, they should. Pictures would help us of course see if the hair is coarse.

#14

I’ll try to take some pictures tonight, unfortunately the hair is still pretty short since I shaved it 2 weeks ago.

LAgirl,Could you point me to to one of those articles on induced growth?

Thanks :slight_smile:

#15

Google this:

“Hair Stimulation Following Laser and Intense Pulsed Light Photo-Epilation: Review of 543 Cases and Ways to Manage It”

Andrea Willey, MD is the head author on this article from 2007.

There are more articles. I can help you out later with more articles, unless lagirl responds before I can get back.

Dee

#16

Dee,

Thank You! I read the study, there is some interesting information there. Definitely hair growth stimulation cannot be ignored anymore. I’m interested in reading any other studies that you might know of.

What I’d be interested in knowing now is if stimulated condition on those hairs is a permenant effect or not. I was told by the technician that over time those hairs should thin again but I’m not so sure.

At the very least, can I have hope that the “new hair” growth can be treated with additional treatments?

I really appreciate everyone’s input, you all have been great. Hopefully with some self education and a little luck, I can find a treatment solution that at least provides me with positive results.

#17

I have never known hair to stop growing on its own, once it has been stimulated. Without permanent hair removal, you will most likely have this hair forever, unless some problem causing reduced circulation to your back occurs. (not bloody likely, but it may be a drug side effect of some FDA cleared medication for runny noses — that is a joke folks)

Dude, you live in Dallas! Why aren’t you getting your back cleared with electrolysis at E-3000? I would expect that they could clear you out the first time in a day or three, and then you would just need to come back 3 weeks later, and then 4 weeks later, and then 6 weeks later, and then stick with something between 4 and 8 weeks after that.

#18

Thanks dfahey for the kind words. I feel I must be honest when it comes to laser. I have been a laser tech since 2005 and now a new electrologist. I see lots of positives and negatives with both. Clients almost always benefit from both, especially, on large areas. Laser has its limitations and side-effects (such as stimulated hair growth and delayed telogen which can last years until returning back to normal. I have seen it myself) and electrolysis has its own.

Almost everyone knows electrolysis limitations since its been around since 1875(?)and I think laser companies takes advantage of that. In advertising, they put down electrolysis in any opportunity (slow tedius ect) they possibly can and stretch the truth about themselves. They have a fair amount of skeletons in their closet and I’m sure they will be escaping in the near-future…it is already happening when consumers have failed laser treatments and tell their friends.

Electrolysis has had it’s skeleton’s released along time ago and had had its sucesses proven (permanent results) too. But I already heard about an “expert” trying to prove electrolysis isn’t permanent. No doubt it was put out by a laser company.

#19

Hopefully, as a new electrologist, you invested in the best computerized epilator(s) available today and surgical magnification. If you did and you expertly use them, you will see no sizable skeleton’s in regard to proper electrolysis care. All that has been wiped out by computerization and special techniques and good vision and light equipment.

I am not intimidated by large areas becuae I have the best tools and results are seen in 9-18 months for most any size area as long as a schedule is adhered to as advised. Many people are very happy that skilled, updated electrologists exist, because there would be nowhere to turn to after laser. It’s good you are trained in both modalities. Laser provides many with great results and at the other end of the scale, impartial to no results. A good electrologist can bring anyone home to the goal they envison in a decent amount of time, and many times, faster than a laser. My business has increased substantially because of laser (thank you laser!) as people begin to understand that the hype wasn’t exactly…as fast and painless as they they were led to believe. Also, more people have become aware of hair removal in general because of laser hair reduction (thanks again laser!). You know this already. Good luck in your career!

Dee

#20

I agree with you that the size of area is not a problem with electrolysis, but laser has advertised that it is. The reason electrolysis is brought up so often is that most clinics/spas get their advertising from their lasers’ manual or website. This is perfectly fine, but its too bad the laser company has to put down another’s method. I guess that’s just the name of the game.

Sorry, if I’m ranting somewhat. Until reading old hair route magazines, I was unaware of what the electrolysis industry went through in the late 90’s to mid 2000 because of laser. I definetly think the advertising was a big part of it. You would think there is some kind of law of ethics involved in advertising?

I’m sure this topic (laser vs electrolysis) have been done to death by now…so I’ll shut up :slight_smile: