Male late 30’s / skin type III / upper arms - dark hair / approximately 7 treatments.
First 4 treatments with Altus Coolglide — decent shedding. Settings: honestly don’t recall. Started treatments in late '05 up to the Summer of '06. Spacing about 6 weeks apart.
Last 3 treatments with Lightsheer — great shedding. Settings: 30-30-10mm for the first 2 and 23-auto for the last appointment. Started treatments in late '06 up to the summer of '07. Spacing about 8 weeks apart.
Based on the results from the Lightsheer I “thought” I found a solution…but it didn’t quite work out that way. I had great clearance for a good 10 weeks after the last treatment. Unfortunately, the hairs ultimately seem to have been induced and/or synchronized, and as of today, (the 10th month of '07), the hairs have come back with a vengeance on my upper arms AND shoulders. The technical name for this situation is: “Paradoxical Hypertrichosis After Laser Epilation.” Please note that I am not in the medical field in any way. However, I am experiencing this and it’s definitely for real ! On the positive side the hairs (in my case) are much more finer and take a lot longer to grow back after one shave, but if left alone they will regrow to a longer length then before. I should also point out that I had EXCELLENT results on my chest and stomach; same treatments + settings as outlined with the lightsheer.
I partly blame myself for not getting tested with an Alex initially at stronger variables for my upper arms, and I realize my total treatments are not nearly enough. I recently did do test spots and received no ill effects from the Gentlelase @ 18 / 18mm. I’m going to get treatments next week and have at least 6 in succession. Hopefully I will achieve better results – it’s worth a shot based on the price alone ($50. per arm). And you can bet that is “negotiated.”
I hope this information is helpful to anyone with the same quandary. My point is to do your homework. Get test spots, do google searches, read this forum, and know what you want BEFORE you consult with the technician, “laseroligist,” or whatever ego-stroking title they give themselves. Based on my experience the less you know, the less you ask, then the less they tell, and the more you wonder. Obviously, I still believe better results are possible, and I’m keeping an open mind. However, had “I known before what I know now,” things could have went a little to (a lot) better.
Did you only have you upper arms treated and did the induced growth happen on your shoulders and upper arms? How fine/thick was the hair there to start with?
This is a known issue on this particular area - men’s upper arms and shoulders - that we consistently warn about. Alex won’t be any better. You need electrolysis for that specific area.
I agree - only electrolysis will work on shoulders and upper arms. I’ve had the same adverse effect. I never had any hair on upper arms or shoulders and now I have it everywhere.
Thanks for the replies ----- the area I initially had treated was the upper arms, and then it spread to the shoulders. The hair was more coarse when treatments first began.
LaGirl I am reviewing an old reply of yours to an earlier post regarding my Lightsheer treatments. Back in Feb. of this year you came back with the following:
[i]"Treatments every 5-6 weeks is way too early for most areas.
What you’re seeing is not the final result yet. But it’s a good sign that it is working. You will have dormant hair coming in within the next 3-4 weeks or so, which is when you should go in for another treatment. I’m glad they’re working for you now. Let us know how it goes."[/i]
Two things jump out: a.) “it’s working,” and b.) the insight to the dormant hair. I am thinking the current result I have is the dormant hair effect, and repetitive treatments might eventually even things out. I realize my additional efforts could be in vain, but using an alex at stronger settings may also bring about a better result. What also comes to mind is how your current reply seems to contradict the above ?
I will echo what others have said. I also have had laser, alot of laser. The Gentlelase as well. Some guys can get away with it on their upper arms and shoulders, maybe even most, but there are more and more guys coming to this board everyday complaining that they have seen more hair growth on the upper arms and shoulders. I have seen decent reduction on my chest and stomach as well, but 300% more hair on my shoulders.
I wish I could of read this board back when I first started to get laser, but honestly, I still probably wouldn’t of listened. Laser has it’s place, but electrolysis just works period. It is slow, but it will work. People think of laser, and it sounds very good up front especially on large areas.
Best thing to do is laser areas first, then finish up with electrolysis later. If I wanted to do electrolysis on my chest and stomach(which I May do someday) I would imagine it would take only about 20-30 hrs total to get rid of. I had microflash done on the upper portion of my chest, and for some reason these hairs respond amazingly well. They are completely gone almost. And I only got one treatment there. And microflash worked nowhere else on my body.
Then microflash was not performed correctly because it does works everywhere, Chuck, facial or body-wise. I don’t know where the deficiency might have been for you personally, but I certainly don’t want the audience to believe this is the outcome for everyone. Microflash thermolysis has worked for hundreds of my clients and clients of other electrolysis practitioners. Just wanted to add some clarity to your statement.
You had one treatment on your chest with microflash and you said it worked???
This is actually the same argument I use about lasers. For someone with the right hair color, laser hair removal works. When it doesn’t work (assuming proper client selection, there is hair that won’t respond because of color) it is usually because it was not performed correctly.
And I am going out on a limb here but I think that there are more variables and more ways to improperly do laser hair removal than electrolysis. The point has been made that electrolysis takes a lot of training and experience. And though the actual mechanics of performing laser is easier than electrolysis being good at it takes an equal amount of training and experience.
You got it right. This can not be emphasized enough.
I keep saying this important concept with painstacking redundancy. Electrolysis hair removal and LASER hair reduction will work and thus satisfy the hairy consumers out there when all variables and good practices are in place. The only difference between the two is Electrolysis can “seek and destroy” every hair color on every skin color, from very fine to very thick. It can do it all. LASER has it’s limitations, working best on dark, coarse hair on pale skin. There are area limitations, too with LASER. Combining the two modalities is appropriate at times.
I have to disagree with your statement regarding how laser hair removal works witht eh right hair color. I say location, location, location. I am the PERFECT candidate for laser hair removal. I am very fair-skinned and have dark hair. I had my forearms treated and I grew all of this hair on my upper arms and shoulders due to the laser. I never treated my foreams again after the incident and now I soley treat the upper arms. I have ben going for close to 4 years (or even longer)with all types of settings with the Candela every 6 weeks. It ALWAYS grows back, but I just cannot stand to look at it, so I still go. I also get the microflash electrolysis to permanently remove the hair. I’ve gone from 18 joules all the way up to 40 with a 10 mm spot size. It was more painful, but it never works. These new forms hairs are just resistant to laser. I now just get 18 joules with 15 (maybe 18) spot size because it’s quicker and the results are the same. I mentioned this before as well, many of the hairs have turned white due to the laser. I have those hairs removed with electrolysis as well.
jsark, as you can see from the comments above from men in your situation, I would spend your money on electrolysis right away if you want your hair gone. what you pasted doesn’t apply to this particular area for many men.
I am looking at the follow up posts; funny how threads can take a life of their own ! I sincerely appreciate the replies and I am definitely more convinced that it’s time to put the laser down. I still have faith that it works as I’ve experienced good results, but certainly not on the upper arms or shoulders.
In my experience one thing I have learned about electrolysis practitioners that also do laser is they are almost always inclined to do laser first. I think this is common sense and a plausible strategy. I had my lightsheer treatments done by an electrologist. Now that the results are obviously negative regarding the regrowth on my upper arms / shoulders I have to find a better solution. The electololgist that I worked with is very reputable, but I would contend she is also negligent and bordering on incompetent.
What absolutely amazes me is the fact that (in my case) I was never made aware of the risk of induced growth in the area’s I was having treated. Based on the replies it’s clear that I am not the first person to be left in the dark. I’ve dealt with a licensed electrologist as well as spoken with a number of straight up laser “techs,” and not one of them ever mentioned this “mystery” reaction. I was told about the possibility of getting pigmented or scared, told the results are not always permanent, but not once was I told that the treatment I was having could very well provide the exact opposite effect of what was desired. And I’m supposed to believe that prideful people who do this for a living, on a daily basis for a number of years; on a variety of patients, have never come across this before ? Baloney. Whether this is an egregious error on the part of practitioners is obviously very debatable. I am simply voicing an opinion, however, now that we are certain this is known risk that strikes at the antithesis of the objective, I would think alerting people and making them aware would be a top priority. Why not put a sticky post on the first page and title it “laser induced regrowth,” I am sure there would be plenty of correspondence with the passion generated on this forum !
I’m not exactly the Ralph Nader type but this is definitely an “unsafe at any speed” kind of topic.
I totally agree with you JRS. Totally understand your frustration. I am not and never will be an anti-laser electrologist. Quite the opposite,I think there is a good place in the hair removal industry for laser hair reduction. One of the big reasons I show up on hairtell is simply to keep hammering away at over-hyping and over promising. Consumers report their experiences and I trust our consumer posts more than I trust the slick laser marketeers.
Consumers should be informed about laser-induced stimulated hair. It has been occurring long enough for all laserologists to know that it happens.
People appreciate honesty. If someone comes to me for a consultation and are trying to decide between laser and electrolysis, I tell them all I know about each. I don’t need to fluff or hide anything because I know that if they check out laser, they will be back anyway in time for the electrolysis cleanup or full treatment, depending on the results. I always have a smile on my face as I place my card in their hand for future reference.
This is actually a very recent discovery and until recently most of the even top experts in the field would not believe that this was happening. It is something that has begun being addressed at the conferences, so more clinics should be aware soon.
Please go back and read some of my posts on the subject of induced hair, I have written extensively about the different types of “increased growth.” Some of this growth is real and some of it is just a temporary byproduct of the process.
Though it happens for real, in other words a real increase in the number of hairs as opposed to an apparent increase in the number of hairs due to synchronization, it doesn’t happen that often. The real incidence is small, especially on the shoulders and upper arms.
And it appears that it is partially related to the quality of the treatments. In other words, the more effective the treatment the less likely that there is recruitment of dormant hairs (which is what happens given that one does not create new hairs during one’s lifetime). Furthermore, the solution for this problem seems to continue the treatment and ultimately, if the treatment is effective, the excess hair can be brought under control and treated. It sometimes takes more treatments than I would like when this happens, but it can be treated. Since we routinely treat people at no charge when this happens, this is not about making money.
And this still goes back to my last post here, which is that at the heart of this is poor quality treatments. I would argue that the lasers that were used and the treatments settings (assuming that you properly reported them) were sub-optimal.
Take the Lightsheer diode for example. I received one of the first ones in the country to test back in the summer of 1998. I bought it and used it for five years and thousands of treatments. It is a great laser. Never breaks down. At the end of five years, when the lease ended, I got rid of it and have not bought another. And that is because it is not that effective. It is OK for the first few treatments on the right people but after treatment four or more, I would never treat them on a Lightsheer. In my mind, to do so, is cheating a client.
I know how you and James feel about microflash but I have had horrible results with microflash. I’ve been to two different electrologists that used microflash. I can tell you that I really don’t think it worked AT ALL on my upper arms and shoulders. I went for a good six months. I did the left side with microflash, and the right side with regular “slow” thermolysis. The results were night and day. I also had 10 hours from another microflash gal, with absolutely no results. However, I had two hours of Microflash back in February below my adams apple, bottom of neck on the right side, and a small amount on my very very upper chest where if your shirt was unbuttoned you would see. I can tell you for some reason these hairs are poof. I noticed right away (10 weeks) that this hair was permanently gone. And it hasn’t come back. I can tell you that there was no results whatsoever on my upper arms. I could compare very easily because the right side was clearing up well with regular slow thermolysis.
I do not doubt your abilities to perform microflash, but I am just very skeptical about it. It seems it is the big fad in electrology, and it appears it must be alot more difficult to implement correctly. There is a big difference in clearing an area quickly without pain, and actually getting nice black ends on the hairs. In my case, the area makes a HUGE difference.
Even my regular electrologist that I have been going to for almost 11 months notices that my upper arms are much more stubborn then the back of my neck, way way upper back and so on. All I can tell you is from personal experience.
If I had another microflash person in my area, I would certainly sample their treatments, but I think consumers really need to be careful. Watch as you are getting worked on, if you aren’t seeing any black or even big white ends. It is probably not working.
Who am I to doubt what you are saying? It is what you say it is.
I am at a disadvantge to point out why microflash didn’t work for you on your upper arms and shoulders, but for some miraculous reason it worked with a total of 2 hours of treatment within 10 weeks on your lower neck and upper chest??? Those hairs are wickedly vicious and you are completely permanently cleared within 10 weeks? I can’t logically figure that one out? But, I will take you at your word.
I have no idea what your other electrologist “gals” were doing. If they were using size 5 or 6 probes for those deep, coarse hairs with good intensity and timing AND if they enabled the repeat function or something similar to that on their epilators AND if their vision and light equipment were in place AND if their insertions were perfect or near perfect, then I’m sure you wouldn’t be here saying microflash is a fad. Everything you brought up is the complete opposite of what is a positively possible outcome with microflash thermolysis.
I will affirm this again and again for how ever long it takes: Microflash works fantastically well for every case, for every area everytime it is used with skill and precision. Other constants must be in place such as proper probe size, appropriate vision equipment and lighting, proper placement of the probe and perhaps using special techniques and proper timing of the hair growth cycles. Using a quality professional epilator matters a lot, too.
Electrologists cannot and do not perform all electrolysis proceedures robotically the same way, with the same tools. James and I are not the only ones who know how to do microflash. We are not that special, thank you. There are many professional electrologists beyond this forum that know very well what I’m saying here. They quietly perform microflash in their offices everyday and get great results for all hair structures whether they be neck hairs or upper arm hairs. Yes, microflash is harder to do. One may have a computerized epilator and can say they do microflash, but you still need to have brains and instinct in the form of a human being behind that machine making it all come together or naturally it will not get you desired results. Don’t blame the modality,kind sir.
I take you at your word, Chuck and I hope you take me at my word. Microflash is awesome - it is not a fad. If your practitoner performs slow thermolysis (manual thermolysis) more proficiently than microflash, as labeled by your stated results, then you need to stay with her plan.
Your last statement is correct. I would add that the hair should slide out with no traction, but again there are variables to that statement as well.
Let me lend my voice to that as well. We are not that Special. It would also be correct to say that MicroFlash requires even more precision to be performed correctly than slow thermolysis.
So no matter what is done the hair still won’t go?? Is that what i am reading? I first went to get my upper arms; shoulders and a couple of patches treated but everything grew back; the problem is that on the upper arms and shoulders I have seen the amount of hair at least triple. Could it be that laser changes vellus hair to terminal?? (i am not sure and am not literate in this subject… just some research!). Either way… it cost me a lot of money to get the areas treated just to see more har… What would be fair practice? A professional’s response would be greatly apreciated. PS: I was not warned about the possibility of getting more hair or else I would not have done it.
Please advise.
Most clinics just started realizing and admitting that this is a possibility. Not sure what you can do. Depends on the contract you signed.
If you want to read more on the issue, there is plenty of information here. Start with the FAQs and also run a search. We do not recommend treating upper arms and shoulders on men unless the hair is already very dense, dark, and coarse.
