Male beard, Harmony AFT, First treatment

Monday 30 January 2005 - Male beard, face and neck. Unit is the Harmony AFT (Advanced Fluorescence Technology). [They advertised as laser hair removal (“Ora Medispa uses the Sonata (810 nm diode laser, 10-400 m/sec) hair removal technology because of the effectiveness, comfort level, speed and accuracy of the laser. Groups of hair follicles are treated in rapidly successive pulses.” - www.oramedispa.com) and I did not know the difference until reading these forums then calling to ask with what had I been treated. Information on the Harmony AFT unit, for anyone interested, is available at www.almalasers.com.]

The doctor I consulted with prior to the procedure was concerned about a medication I take that has a rare side effect of photosensitivity so she advised me she would allow the treatment but at a lower intensity than she would have otherwise used. She also advised that if an aditional
treatment was required because of this the clinic would provide it with no additional cost. I was told to expect to require 4-6 treatments. My skin is Type-II. Hair is dark. I haven’t tanned for years so that wasn’t an issue.

The doctor smeared a cooling gel over my face and neck and covered my eyes with hard plastic eye-cups. The technician who performed the procedure asked me to rate the pain from each zap/pulse as she adjusted the unit. When I reached a 3-4 she said it was higher than they had planned to use but kept it at that (later I learned the level/fluence used was 17 and if I’ve researched the unit properly that’s close to maximum of 20 so that suggests a lack of communication between the doctor (who left once the tech began) and the technician who performed the procedure). I wouldn’t call it painful at all but then I do tolerate pain well. The sensation was like static electricity zaps. Stinging rather than painful. I was given a hose which blew cold air to whatever part of my face I pointed it at.

The cold air and the gel proved useful once the tech began moving across my face and it felt like I was being slow roasted with each new zap/pulse.

The tech stopped twice to ask if I was okay … I assume because I had put myself into a state of relaxation while she worked on me and I didn’t respond to each zap/pulse. When she asked me to tuck in my lips while she worked on the mouth area my concentration was broken and the first of
the pulses to that area surprised me into a slight jump.

The whole thing was completed in perhaps less than half an hour. Due to the cooking feeling I had I expected to look sun-burned but when I grabbed a mirror as soon as I was left alone there was very little redness. Guess the gel and cold air did their job. Only side/after effect I can say I had was a couple of days of the feeling of razor burn, especially on my neck.

The tech booked me a second appointment for 1 March 2006 but asked me to call and re-schedule the appointment later if I wasn’t seeing hair growing by then.

I’ll post a diary of sorts here for anyone interested in the Harmony for male beard.

Friday 3 February 2006 - I shaved Wednesday and again today which, since before I read from these forums I didn’t expect I’d be doing that also had me worried. Right now, after four days, it feels and looks like my beard is growing as if I’d had no treatment at all. A call to the doctor said it is expected and normal.

Monday 13 February 2006 - Two weeks since first Harmony treatment. Shaved yesterday (and quick shave few days before that). Beard appears to still grow.

Monday 20 February 2006 - Three weeks since procedure. Shaved last night. I’ve not had any noticeable shedding and so obviously no hair-free period. And if I’m right with the Harmony research the unit only does 20j and I was treated at 17j so that doesn’t leave much room for future treatments being successful either.

Thursday 23 February 2006 - It’s now 24-days since procedure performed (slight correction in days since my question post). Other than a possible bit of thinning to the treated areas I don’t see that this procedure has worked well at all. This could be due to the 17 instead of 20 setting, I could be a late shedder (though I doubt it), this could be unique to me or perhaps the Harmony AFT is not suitable to the male beard. I’ll update this once I see my doctor and/or tech and gather some updated information.

if you didn’t see shedding and you think the settings were too low (I think you are right on that because especially on an area where hair is so dense, you should have really felt more pain, not the slight sting that you’re describing), I would ask for a free reshoot at higher settings. If nothing shed by week 4, the hair will not shed. have you tugged on any hairs, any sliding out easily? Also, are you sure it only goes up to 20 joules? some machines offer higher joules by adjusting the spot size. I know with GentleLASE, many practitioners tell patients that highest is 20 joules, but in reality, if they switch the spot size to 15 or 12 mm, they can go up to 30, 40, and 50 joules if they want. Worth looking into it.

Live and learn. The treatment probably did nothing for you. And I mean that seriously. It doesn’t surprise me that the doctor said everything was normal. I’m more surprised that he didn’t give you the ‘You need six treatments to see the effects’ shpeel. Even if you would have shed, growth still could have returned. What a lot of people don’t understand is that post-treatment shedding and actual hair loss are two different things. Hair will shed whenever the hair suffers heat related infrastructure disruption.

I remember seeing the special on ‘20/20’ on broadcast television abouit laser clinics making outrageously untrue claims. I personally never thought I’d be a victim of that as well. But I was. $2,000 dollars later, all my hair has returned. As I talk to more people, and read all the accounts here, I’m beginning to see the laser hair removal industry as a huge cosmetic scam industry. Stick with electrolysis.

I know you had a bad experience Mantaray, but I don’t think it’s fair to say/imply that even if hair sheds, it will return for all. it IS safe to say that if it DOESN’T shed, it definitely wasn’t affected. And that’s something we’d like to point out. On the other hand, there are plenty of people here whose hair doesn’t return after it has shed, myself included.

if you didn’t see shedding and you think the settings were too low (I think you are right on that because especially on an area where hair is so dense, you should have really felt more pain, not the slight sting that you’re describing), I would ask for a free reshoot at higher settings. If nothing shed by week 4, the hair will not shed. have you tugged on any hairs, any sliding out easily? Also, are you sure it only goes up to 20 joules? some machines offer higher joules by adjusting the spot size. I know with GentleLASE, many practitioners tell patients that highest is 20 joules, but in reality, if they switch the spot size to 15 or 12 mm, they can go up to 30, 40, and 50 joules if they want. Worth looking into it.

I would guess the treatment failed but I should clarify the pain and intensity issues. I doubt most people would have tolerated the pain as I did. After my original post I thought my comparison to static shock should have included that I work in the security and investigation field and I was really comparing the pain of the AFT to the pain of stun devices I’ve had tested on myself.

As to the joules, the numbers didn’t come from my doctor, I pulled them from the PDF brochure on the almalasers.com site. That states the the capabilties of the machine, for the purpose of hair reduction, is 5-20J/cm2. I combined that with the info on Ora’s website that states “each pulse treats an area about the size of a ‘scrabble game’ piece (1.2cm2)” and 20J does sound like the maximum.

I have an email in to the one of the doctors who operate the clinic, the one with who I consulted, regarding the matter and will speak to her in the next few days. I will inquire about the “spot size” you mentioned and see if that can be adjusted. I’ll also request a re-shoot rather than the extra session she promised if the lower setting was not effective -don’t want to continue paying for something unless it actually works.

Oh, tried the gentle tug too and no, the hairs are not loose at all. I’m afraid it just didn’t work for me.

Once again, thanks for the assistance.

-Trist

Live and learn. The treatment probably did nothing for you. And I mean that seriously. It doesn’t surprise me that the doctor said everything was normal.

I’m resigned to the fact it did nothing (with the exception of some possible thinning). And I do live and learn: everyday in every way. But just to clarify, the doctor said it was normal for shedding not to have occured so soon after the treatment -which was within the first week. In the end though, it appears it has gone well beyond that and indeed failed. To her credit the doctor did warn me that because she planned to use settings lower than normal that particular treatment might fail and she would add a free treatment if that was the case. (Of course if in the end it still fails for me I’ll be out some cash but I’m not giving up just yet.)

As to the rest of your comments it does appear that laser, IPL, AFT, etc. fails for some, works partially or slowly for others and quite well for yet others again. I’m not ready to call it a scam but until I have another go at it I can’t say if I’m in the it does or it doesn’t work for me group.

I’m glad it worked for lagirl and sorry it did not work for you. In a few months I’ll know if it will for me. Oh, and as to the electro suggestion which is a good one for many, unless it were to complete a laser success, that’s too time consuming for me.

In any case thanks for the comments.

-Trist

I typed a long reply to your post last night and Hairtell went down (or something else happened) and I lost the whole thing just before I hit the “Ok,submit” button. It was getting late and I need to get some sleep.

Anyway, first things first. The Harmony goes up to 20J for hair removal. And the spot size is fixed at 40 X 16mm. I had two treatments on my upper. The first treatment worked very well, with about a 50% reduction, much better than I expected from IPL. I am not sure of the fluence used but I did have redness afterward that lasted almost a day. We mostly did the upper legs above the tan line. The hair shed almost immediately which was another surprise. This treatment may have been at 20J. I will have to ask my practitioner. We did a test spot on the tanned part of my leg and it scabbed. I had been out of the sun for only 3-4 weeks and my legs were quite dark still. But I never lose most of my tan anyway. No cooling system was used for this treatment.

I just had my second treatment a week ago. Since I have been out of the sun for a few months we went further down my leg to the knees. This time we used 17J. I could feel some pain, 5 on a scale of 0-10. In addition, a cooling system was used this time. I did have a sunburn feeling and the hair feels like it was singed. I have not shed yet and it is too early to tell how well this treatment did. I agree that shedding does not mean the hair is gone permanently, but if you don’t shed, that is not a good sign. Some of the hair that sheds will come back if it was not in the growth stage at the time of treatment.

So yes, I have had success with the Harmony. I can’t come to a conclusion on the second treatment yet. I had that sunburn feeling, but not as much redness. That may be normal because I had less hair for the second treatment.

I am puzzled by your results. 17J is close to the highest setting and you felt pain. Yet 4 weeks later you have had no shedding, and IMHO that is not a good sign. Even if you are a late shedder, some of the hairs should slide out easily when tweezed, especially at 4 weeks (don’t try that the first week after treatment). On my first treatment, I felt more pain on the back of my legs and they were twitching, so they turned down the fluence by 4 joules and I could definitely feel a difference.

Here’s what I do to gauge my progress for my beard: two weeks after the treatment I shave as usual with my electric shaver. Then I immediately follow up with a blade shave using the M3 Power. At this point clumps of hair will be visible on the razor and they will be much longer than what was visible on the surface of the skin. Remember I just shaved with an electric do there is little to no hair above the skin surface. I will try to post a picture later. That is how I got into trouble last night, and I don’t want to retype the entire post again! Once you see the clumps of hair, you wait a month or two to see how much grows back. A higher percent of the beard hair is in the growth stage at any given time compared to other body areas.

I would get a re-shoot if you can at 20J. You may see a considerable difference, maybe not. If that doesn’t work you may be a non-responder. The Alma Laser rep told me there are about 10% of people just do not respond to laser and/or IPL. Another thing you may want to try is a Nd:YAG laser. It does penetrate deeper into the follice than the shorter wavelengths. The Harmony uses a larger spot size to compensate, but I don’t know if it fully compensates for the shorter wavelenghts, which correspond to 650-950nm.

Hope this helps.

RJC2001

I am puzzled by your results. 17J is close to the highest setting and you felt pain. Yet 4 weeks later you have had no shedding, and IMHO that is not a good sign. Even if you are a late shedder, some of the hairs should slide out easily when tweezed, especially at 4 weeks

Yes, both of your posts were useful as was lagirl’s (yours more so since we’re dealing with a male beard). The 50% number cleared matters. I, from reading here and not asking questions first, expected 100% with new hair growing after a period of time for each treatment. I don’t know what percentage I’d call it but since my beard has thinned out and I have several small bald patches around and under my chin I have had hair overall reduction. Since, after the initial three days, I began shaving every second day (normal for me) again I wouldn’t have seen shedding … a portion of hair, the thinned out areas, would have shed during regular shaving. These are areas I didn’t notice until I stopped looking for a 100% reduction.

Another thing I did not notice before that I can see too clearly now is that I have quite a bit of white hair, especially on my chin. If in the end of laser treatments, assuming laser works on most dark hair, that bothers me I’ll try electro. Since it’s the very visible shadow of dark hair under my light skin that bugged me in the first place the white hair is really not a great concern right now.

Following posting here I called the clinic with my concerns and spoke to the technician who performed my first treatment. Her answers were pretty close to those from yourself. She did say that no matter the amount that sheds they only expect a 15-20% reduction in hair that is not expected to return per treatment. Explained further she said that even if I somehow saw a 100% temporary shedding only 15-20% of it would be permanent.

In any case she did remind me that she had treated me lower than would have been normal based on my pain scale answers due to the possible medication complications I previously mentioned. I am returning tomorrow for what she calls a more aggressive treatment. I did ask about Meladine but they do not use it. One of the clinic’s doctors is going to do some research into it for me but again, based on Q&A’s on the net I don’t hold much hope that’ll actually work on the white hair.

Thanks for the speedy answers and I apologize for my delayed response.

-Trist

Quick follow-up to last message. Had second Harmony treatment on 1 March '06 in the am. Performed by the doctor this time and at the maximum 20j. Shedding, that I noticed, began or mostly occured approx. 10-days later. Now, two-weeks after the second treatment, instead of a few bald spots around the chin area (those occured after the first treatment) I have only a few very small patches of dark hair left, pretty much under or near my chin. Now that most of the dark hair is gone from my face I really, really see a lot of white hair I never noticed before.

I’m not, on the advice of the doctor, going to try the Meladine (doc said she hasn’t used it and would rather not have me using something that she doesn’t know will not affect the skin surface and possibly cause burns). So if I want to deal with the white hair later it’ll have to be electro. but since those don’t cause shadow I’m not concerned just now.

Based on what I’ve seen from two treatments, especially since the first one was done with saftey in mind and I didn’t respond anywhere close to the way I have from the second one, I’m thinking another couple of treatments will have me thinned out to a point I’m happy with. [I define happy as in a shave takes me about 2-4 minutes now and leaves no shadow. If it wasn’t for the few dark patches left that show a couple of days after last shaving I’d be shaving twice a week. Every second day is all I need to stay *very* smooth and clean looking as it is now.]

BTW: Whoever posted the tip on the Fusion razor, thanks. Went with the electric one and the thing is great. And for anyone who has dry skin after treatment, and wants to work on the dead hair too, I’m using a product called RAZOR DEFENSE Gentle Face Scrub, Neutrogena MEN and it’s been great. Don’t see why it wouldn’t work for men and women and it would probably work anywhere on the body, not just the face. Using the Neutrogena a few days back is when I noticed the little stuck hairs and dead hairs shed. And it took care of the dry skin for me too.

-Trist

sounds great. hope you will keep reporting your results. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />