Looking to do it at home

Hair Removal Methods Do-It-Yourself Electrolysis
#81

Well, I have enjoyed reading Bono’s book the last 4 days, and am ready to read it again to fine-tune some things. But I am now in need of some more professional guidance.

  1. I was disappointed in the lack of proper insertion information. Is this normally taught in person? There have to be so many variables that it would be tough to cover in text, but SOMETHING besides “always insert to anagen depth” would assist the new kids on the block.

  2. I have read on here more than once that it is safer to start with galvanic and move on to blend. Yet I have been told by others that it is not necessary, going directly into blend is fine with today’s machines. Which do all ye pros recommend?

  3. In the blend book, Bono says to “establish depth gauge” p. 103, then find the HF working point with all auto settings disabled ch. 7. This seems a bit backwards, but ok. On to my question… is it important to do the 20 second HF-only epilation? What is a good starting point for the Senior II? My manual only says that over 39 you get a warning, but not what is a recommended starting point. So the goal here is to get a HF voltage and a time that achieves proper epilation for a particular area of the body.

So I guess what I am asking is… is this part necessary? Won’t the programs take variables such as skin dryness & patient discomfort (via me) into account, and allow us to find a near-perfect setting of DC & HF? I am getting the impression that doing what is recommended is for purely manual machines, not automatic ones.

As always, thanks for your input. And be prepared, I think reading the book may raise more questions that it has answered, and that is where you good people come in! (How nice it would be to be James’ or Dee’s “shadow” for a few days!!)

#82

The area and amount of hair is small enough it would probably cheaper to seek out a professional electrologist and have it professionally done. You’d be surprised how fast and how affordable it is for a modern electrologist like the pros to finish a small job like the area around the nipples.

Shaving will not cause the hairs to grow longer or get worse.

#83

Maggie - just get electrolysis done by professional. Trust me, PLEASE! This won’t work for you. The nipple area is so easy to do and you will be rid of this hair in under a year if it is performed by a skilled electrologist. I rely on the Blend method in the beginning session and make the switch to one of the faster forms of electrolysis toward the end. Shaving has nothing to do with making this worse as Vickie said so well.

#84

[quote=F6Hawk]

  1. I was disappointed in the lack of proper insertion information. Is this normally taught in person? [color:#6633FF]Yes, That is why electrologists attend school. Some instructors are more helpful than others, but it is best to have feedback from those who can see you.[/color] There have to be so many variables that it would be tough to cover in text, but SOMETHING besides “always insert to anagen depth” would assist the new kids on the block. [color:#6633FF] Anagen depth is an important concept and action that one must use. There are other things that go with that, like feeling the anchor in the hair follicle and then inserting a little past that, but then again you just need to practice to get the feeling. TO some of us, the learning curve is not too big, for others it is terribly frustrating to learn to insert well.[/color]

  2. I have read on here more than once that it is safer to start with galvanic and move on to blend. Yet I have been told by others that it is not necessary, going directly into blend is fine with today’s machines. Which do all ye pros recommend? [color:#6633FF]I am in favor of straight galvanic first, when advising people. It’s a blanket statement that can apply to all if one is not using a computerized epilator. A computerized epilator spells things out pretty well so all you have to do is push a button, start low and then gradually work your way up until you find a working point.[/color]

  3. In the blend book, Bono says to “establish depth gauge” p. 103, then find the HF working point with all auto settings disabled ch. 7. This seems a bit backwards, but ok. On to my question… is it important to do the 20 second HF-only epilation? What is a good starting point for the Senior II? [color:#6633FF]This applies if you are using an oldie but goodie epilator like a clareblend Ultrablend epilator because all you hace is an HF dial and a galvanic dial. You have to make your own levels from scratch whereas the senior II has already made those levels for you at the push of a button. Sort of like making your own pizza from scratch as oppossed to buying pre-made frozen pizza to heat up. [color:#000000]My manual only says that over 39 you get a warning, but not what is a recommended starting point. So the goal here is to get a HF voltage and a time that achieves proper epilation for a particular area of the body.[/color]Yes.[/color]

So I guess what I am asking is… is this part necessary? Won’t the programs take variables such as skin dryness & patient discomfort (via me) into account, and allow us to find a near-perfect setting of DC & HF? I am getting the impression that doing what is recommended is for purely manual machines, not automatic ones. [color:#3366FF]Yes. Just start low and gradually work up to a level where the hair releases and the skin looks unaffected.[/color]
[color:#6633FF]A lot of what Bono teaches in his book holds true for analog epilators and it is good to know this, but it really is nothing to concern yourself about being the owner the Senior II [/color]

As always, thanks for your input. And be prepared, I think reading the book may raise more questions that it has answered, and that is where you good people come in! (How nice it would be to be James’ or Dee’s “shadow” for a few days!!)[color:#6633FF]I would be delighted to have a shadow. Frequently, clients bring their kids, sisters, mothers, husbands and I ask them to step along side the table so theu can see what I’m doing. I explain as much as I think they would want to know without getting too deep. I hope I said everything I wanted to say, as well as it can be said as I have many distractions in the background at the moment! Doing electrolysis is not easy and I will admit that I was not the top student in my class, but I think I might have been the most verbose and enthusiastic in regard to learning the art[/color]

#85

Ok, so I tried electrolysis (straight galvanic) today. I wanted to start with her toes, as there are only a few hairs there, and I figured it would make for easy clearance. Not so… hard to get an insertion. Hard skin? I dunno…

So I moved on to her leg. Was able to get a few good F4 insertions (most of her hairs seem to be F4-5), and was using .30 mA for 20 secs. She said it hurt before we got to 20 secs, so I turned it down to .25, and tried to go 25 secs. Still hurts. None of the hairs seemed to be fully killed, they hurt to remove, and didn’t have a full sheath on them.

Had to stop due to pain frustrations, but wanted some feedback on our settings before proceeding.

Thanks,
Dave

#86

The settings are based on the body you are working on. Although it would be easily possible for one of us to be “Backseat Drivers” from another country and say that a particular setting seemed a little on the high side, it is not as easy to say if something was on the low side, as that would all depend on the person being worked on, the hairs being worked on, and the hydration levels and pain tolerance of that person.

I would never advise using toes or fingers as a first hair removal point, as one needs to be good at insertions and selection of treatment energy in those areas. It is too easy to push past the bottom of the follicle, and even when the treatment energy is done correctly with a good insertion, it usually still hurts the client as one is working on such thin skin right on top of a bone.

I like to start students on legs and let them work on that a while. When they get good at that, we move them to the ball of the chin, and then on to the cheek hairs. When they get those, we bring them back down for chest, back and arm hairs.

You may want to try “Progressive Epilation” to find the proper setting. That is a two handed technique where you insert the probe, grasp the hair and hold it taught, then let the treatment energy flow. In this way, the hair will pop out as soon as it is properly treated. You may find that the working point is lower than the energy you have selected, it may be higher.

#87

I will try the progressive technique… as soon as I can regularly get the *&%$ probe inserted!

I was trying to get hairs that are only 1-2 mm out of the skin, too short for progressive right now. I’ll have her not shave the leg for a day or two and try again.

What time frame would make for a good working point? 6-10 secs? Or is her discomfort more of an indicator?

#88

Her discomfort is a better gauge. You should be able to do something that has the hairs releasing before she is biting down on her ball gauge. :grin:

#89

Ok, so we will focus on legs, and use galvanic for a while, until good insertions are achievable at least 20% of the time. They are gorwing as we speak, so that I can try progressive epilation. How long do the hairs need to be here? At least long enough to grab without touching the probe, I guess, plus a little for the “bend” recommended by Bono… say 3mm at least? Longer?

As for the method… With legs, I assume you position yourself to the side of the client. I am right handed, so if I am doing the right leg, I am on her right side. So do I position myself such that the hairs are pointing to the right, down her leg, and the probe is pointing left, towards her head? Or should I try to get “behind” the hair, and bring the probe into the follicle towards me? (sort of like sitting behind the client’s head while working on the chin, as I have seen in pictures)

How do I hold the probe? Am I barely letting it rest on my hand, just letting gravity hold it on me, as I move it into the follicle? (this seems to allow the needle to move with the follicle better than…) Or do I hold it between thumb & index finger, like a pencil, and “poke” it in? I feel like when I grip it between my fingers, I run the risk of not staying in line with the follicle as insertion progresses.

#90

You only need the hairs to be long enough to grasp without touching the probe during the treatment.

You want to position yourself for a comfortable insertion. You want to be moving your hands as straight as possible. see how her hair grows and position yourself to best move from where the hairs are pointing and aim your probe and hands upwards towards the follicle opening. Alternately, you want to be coming from the side, and be moving into the follicle from the left, or from the right. The Bono Book has pictures of lots of different positions for client and practitioner (that is if you have the 1st edition)

You hold it with a “pinch” grip, but light enough that you are only guiding it into the follicle. This way, when you hit resistence, the probe tends to slide rather than puncture. If you do it right, you have to apply more pressure to push past the top of the anchor tissue, so that the probe will slide down to the bottom of the bulb. It is developing this feel that is the hardest part of what we do, so don’t feel bad if you have a hard time developing this, or never do.

Some people have been doing this for years and still can’t do what I just explained.

#91

I need to change the topic of my post to “Doing it at home now”.

WOOHOO!!! I DID it!! That’s right, ladies & gentlemen, the noob epilated & electrolocized some hairs tonight! Thru a combination of events, I was able to go from the 2% point to the 50% point. Amd I gotta say, it instilled a LOT of confidence in both of us.

We went for leg hairs as per your advice, and she has let them grow for 3 days now. Lighting was good, I started with an F5 instead of a 3, first insertion went in like a pro (at least in MY mind). In fact, I sort of surprised myself. Took me a bit to get the right settings, but settled on 25 secs, .25 mA, and 19% Omni Blend. I don’t know how to call up insertions on the senior II, but I’d say a fair bit over a hundred hairs removed tonight in an hour and a half. (just a tad under what James and Dee does, eh? :slight_smile: )

I don’t know exactly how or why it came together for me tonight, but it had my wife sitting up and watching, and even elicited a few "WOW"s from her when I stretched, set, and inserted in one smooth motion. I’d say I went thru the bottom of about 5 follicles, had one bad insertion that showed red (but not enough to form a drop), and only hurt her about 8 or 10 times. Yeah, I’m stoked!!

So I just had to share, but I also want to give credit where it is due, so thanks to all of you here who have been helping. Dee, James, Vickie, Willie… my hat’s off to you! And to the others who have encouraged me or answered my silly questions, thanks. This has been one of the most well run, informative, and helpful forums I have ever had the pleasure of joining.

#92

The Apilus machines will not record number of insertions, or number ot times the foot pedal was pressed unless you create a client file, and open that file to record the session. A word of caution, make sure that you never do a session longer than 4 hours without closing the file and reopening it. For some strange reason, the computer program is only set to record 4 hours and 15 minutes, after that, it resets to zero. Your insertion count will continue, but your time count will start over.

#93

Okay, beware, I’m going to shout now - WHY ISN’T THAT FACT MENTIONED IN THE MANUEL!!! I do many long appointments and have been confused many times when the print out comes out as 80 minutes instead of 380 minutes. I thought it was because I was pausing the timer for water, almond and stretch breaks and that caused the messed up the count. Not to fear if this happens because one can go to the cummulative column and do some simple arithemtic to find the actual time of a session. It’s just a pain in the buttitta to go refigure and hand write the information on the receipt. The longest appointment I have had in one days time is a little over eight hours, so it would be great if the good people at Apilus would lengthen that time to maybe 10 hours???

Dee

I forgot to shout something else - “GREAT JOB, HAWK!!” It does feel great when that light bulb goes off and things fall into place, no matter what you do. I recently got a compound saw and was totally at a loss as to how to cut the wood correctly. I’m flying high now and what was a struggle a month ago is so simple for me now. The next time you will feel so jazzed up is when your lovely wife proclaims that she has no hair growth on her legs in about a year. You will then realize that you are performing permanent hair removal! Your speed will pick up as you get the routine down, so don’t worry yourself too much about this.

#94

It sounds like your excited…I am too, and it aint about me. :o) Keep up the good work, and as you said before…we sure are lucky to have some open, kind and knowledgable people of this board to help us along our way.

Good luck with it!
Maxine

#95

Dee, you have NO IDEA how much I’d love to come show you some tricks with a compound miter saw. Talk about some LOVELY crown moulding that you can do for CHEAP! You could teach me to insert all day, and we could cut, chop, and saw into the night!! Ahhh, the skillz we could share, and the tales to tell over iced tea later…

But fer real, I can’t wait to get back to the US and get me some training. I even got some good news yesterday: I should be able to get full tuition for school in August. Woo hoo!!

Yeah, it was a tad slow last night, but I pushed the envelope as much as I felt I safely could. I tried some auto insertions @ 1.5 secs (nice, but when you are doing 20 secs, and need to go an extra 5-7 secs on a hair, I find it easier to use the footswitch). Nice that the switch cuts off treatment in auto mode, but I wish it was able to re-start the treatment, too.

Even tried those pesky toes, and was able to get a few of those, too. They really ARE tricky, what with harder skin covering the follicle, shallow depths, weird angles… but I got 'em. I was nervous about her comfort, so I really took it slow, but steady, and felt like I won THAT race!

One question I need help with though… on most hairs, I was getting a smooth insertion for the entire needle length. This matched the length of most hairs. Some hairs, I feel like I was hitting anagen depths, but got shorter hairs. Based on lighter colors, less depth, and less sheath, I felt like those were telogen hairs, and I was simply going past their base to anagen depth. Does this sound right?

And then… there were a few where I hit “bottom” at less than full needle depth. I tried to go farther by gently working the needle in and out a couple of times, but all I got was indented skin. So I started treating, only to find the needle sliding all the way in. Is this ok, or do I risk damaging the epidermis? I felt like I was inserting with enough force to actually hit bottom, and if that were the case, I would punch thru the bottom of the papilla with any more force, then suddenly the needle slid in like a hot knife into warm butter.

#96

That was a common problem for me when I first started. Based on experience and what the pros have told me, you are probably pushing through the bottom of the follicle. Here’s what I do, if I am wrong the pros can take me to task :wink:

If the insertion seems too short, withdraw and try gently inserting at a slightly different angle, if that doesn’t work try it again at a slightly different angle etc. Don’t force your way past it, if you feel a “push” or “breakthrough” sensation you might have broken the follicle wall or bottom. The needle should slide in, almost “drop” into the follicle. If the depth is really short, it is probably a telogen hair. You could also try a different needle size and see if it gives you a better “feel” inside the follicle.

This would be a great question for a future DIY Electro FAQ.

#97

Technically, I can venture a guess why the timer count resets after 4 hours and 15 minutes. 4 hours and 15 minutes is 255 minutes. They are probably only using 8 bits to keep track of how many minutes of treatment have gone by (and the seconds are counted separately.) 8 bits (2^8) only allows for a maximum number, counting from 0, of 255. To increase the time it can count, it would have to go to 16 bits, which would allow for 65535 minutes (1,092.25 hours) but for whatever engineering reason they decided it would waste resources to use 16 bits and 4 hours and 15 minutes of treatment time in one session was enough for most users.

Now I have a question about Apilus units. How does it count insertions? If I am using a footswitch, press it once and run whatever treatment program I set up, take my foot off the pedal, and press it again to run the treatment a program a second time (without removing the needle), does the machine count it as 1 insertion or 2? I am trying to get an accurate number of hairs I remove in a session but I think it is counting each program run/cycle as one insertion, as much as I would like to be able to claim I can do 350 hairs an hour :slight_smile:

#98

Thanks for the encouragement, Maxine, I appreciate you taking the time to notice. Yes, I am a tad excited! Though I think Dee is a tad generous with her estimation of hair clearance in a year, at least we WILL see said hairlessness sometime in the future!

Dave

#99

You win the the prize!
Yes, the counter counts number of treatment cycles. So, it counts the number of times you press the footpedal in manual mode, and the number of completed programs run in auto mode. If you have the machine set for doing a hair with one cycle of treatment, then each insertion should properly remove a hair.

Now, sometimes, the moisture evacuates from the follicle prior to the program completing, and the machine aborts. Sometimes this actually results in a fully treated hair. The machine, however does not count this as an insertion. It looks on this as an aborted treatment. This makes up for the times when you treat a hair with two or more insertions just to get it to release. The counter is only an approximation of how many hairs have been removed, if you know how you have been using the machine.

Fino usually treats with 3 shots per follicle, and uses the footswitch. When I did his Apilus demo, we had to divide his counter number by 3 to see how many hair he had removed. Of course, if he utilized the Apilus to do one shot treatments, he could actually remove the number of hairs the counter displayed, as his technique includes three insertions per hair anyway.

The dude is just lightening fast.

as far as the apilus timer problem…
I know why they did this, and why they did not “fix” this with the platinum. Simply put, the average electrolysis appointment is 15 to 60 minutes. Most practitioners are not so crazy as to do 5, 6, 7, 8 hours on one client in a day. It would be reworking the product for the benefit of a minority of users in their mind.

Now if Vicky could come up with a way to change this feature for those who desperately need it, I am sure this service could be very usefull.

Yesterday I printed up a treatment tape that told the client that I had done 3500 hairs in 2 minutes! (obviously, the system had reset)

while we are on the subject, the hair counter resets as well on the total cycles performed on the client, and I can’t figure out where it resets, although I have several full body clients who have flipped the thing once or twice. Can you tell me based on your knowlege of this, what the hair counter fip number would be? It would help me so much.

#100

If Dectro would be kind enough to send me a copy of the firmware and tell me what hardware they use inside, I may be able to offer a fix. Maybe not :wink:

As for the insertion counter, it depends on how they store the number in hardware. They could put an arbitrary limit on the number in theory, but they usually allow the user to run up as big a number as their scheme would allow for. Making an educated guess, and depending on how they store the number, I’d look for it to flip at 4096 (2^12 and they could use the other 4 bits to count something else), or 1024 (2^10, the counter number is probably higher than this, I haven’t gotten that high on my counter yet, but with this they would have 6 bits to count the seconds in the treatment time), 2048 or 8192.