Could you address laser-induced hair growth and tell us your experiences and thoughts on this subject? How often do you see it on faces of women of color,especially? Men’s shoulders, upper arms, backs?? Have you observed hair being stimulated on any other body areas as well? Is there a way to avoid this from happening and do you think it is a rare occurence?
Thank you so much for sharing what you have seen and learned over the past ten years that you have been in a successful laser practice. With that much time on your side and your medical background, your thoughts would hold a lot of weight.
I think there is basically four kinds of laser induced hair growth. The most common is what I would actually call psuedo laser induced hair growth.
This is an apparent increase of hair in an area due to synchronization of hair. For example, prior to treatment there may have been 50 and now there are 100. This usually responds really well to treatment and before you know it, the hairs are gone. We see this in a majority of people if you count the hairs that grow between the 1st and 3rd treatment.
The second type is really unrelated to laser hair removal hair growth. This mostly occurs in young girls and boys and in young woman who are growing new hair related to puberty or PCOS and come in at the first new hair and are frustrated when more hair comes in. What we normally do in these kinds of situations is either let them know that until their hair growth stabilizes that we are just wasting their money.
The third kind is normal laser induced hair growth. This seems to happen mostly to woman of middle eastern/mediterranean descent and through to India. It appears to occur in about 15-20% of woman and seems somewhat related to how effective the treatments are. We see it less if our treatment parameters are more aggressive. What we normally see are woman who have a small number of hairs but after treatment begin to have more and more. What we find that works is to continue to treat at longer intervals and try to maximize their treatments. Eventually you get a handle on the hair and get rid of it. But it can take many more treatments than you expected. This could be expensive though we always do this at no charge when it happens.
What I think happens is that the laser stimulates long dormant hairs to begin to cycle and start growing. These are hairs that may have started to grow later in life, so getting them now is a good thing. But then I try to point out the silver lining. We also see this happening on men’s back and chest, though no as commonly as on a woman’s face.
Finally, there is the most uncommon of all and this is adjacent laser induced hair growth. This is where hair that was adjacent to where we were treating begins to grow and can be really frustrating. Again, the solution seems to continue to treat but to be more aggressive. You can eventually get rid of the hair but it can really frustrate people during the process. We see this occasionally but not that often. Less than a percent.
It isn’t just higher power but also reducing the pulsewidth, increasing the spot size, increasing the area that is overlapped, and even waiting longer between treatments to let the hairs fully mature. Another example is waiting till fall and winter so as to allow melanin to decrease so that higher power can be used. It can also include switching from a YAG to an alex if the skin will allow.
I didn’t want Jessica’s post to get unnoticed, so I waited a couple days to respond to this.
As expected, your post responding to my question, was very helpful.
As related to what I do, probe electrolysis, I have seen several clients that fit in with your explanantion about women of color (faces). They come to me hoping I can remove the hair that they originally had, in addition to more hair that they swear laser caused to appear. Nerves are raw when they first show up and I feel the need to understand this so as to help them.
I have only had one woman who had the adjacent laser-induced hair growth you describe and it affected her neck. She had Fitz. type I-II skin and very dark hair on her chin and jawline on up and he she swears that her neck was never treated with the Lightsheer. She developed dark medium, long hairs all over her anterior neck area, I think, several weeks after her facial treatments (don’t have her chart with me now). Some hairs were light as well? I had forgotton about her until you mentioned adjacent hair growth.
Well, thanks for describing this. I have asked this question on another now defunct hair forum and was threatened with banishment for bringing the subject up - again. I never thought the explanation was strong enough. What has stuck in my mind for awhile is that laser-induced hair growth “awakens” sleeping follicles, but you gave more detail, which I appreciate very much.
I have issues with your 4th option adjacent laser-induced hair growth. The issue mostly affected is my upper arms and shoulders. I continually do 18mm spot size with at 24 (I think). I have gone as high at 45 joules with a 12 mm spot size, but did not see any difference. So I just continue with the 18-24.
You mentioned something about reducing the pulsewideth and increasing the area that is overlapped. Can you be more specific? I have an appointment tomorrow and if this method coudl possible make a difference, I would sure like to try it. He uses the Gentlelase and I have very pale skin with dark hair.
GentleLASE has a very low pulsewidth at 3ms. It’s not adjustable as it is already very low. You could not have been treated at 24 joules with 18mm. The max on 18mm is 20 joules. Max settings, if you want to do that on this machine, is 20 joules on 18mm or 30 joules on 15mm.
Are you syaing that you were having laser hair removal done somewhere near your underarms and you developed more hair on your underarms, that were not treated?
Sort of … I had lhr on u/a amongst other areas and after 2nd treatment noticed a few new hairs on the periphery of treated area. These were treated and after 3rd treatment I had many more of these peripheral hairs appear and the area seemed to extend. These were treated again and after fourth treatment, I have fewer re-appear so doesn’t seem like the increase is continuing. I am debating whether to have my 5th treatment.
I just posted to provide evidence that someone with skin type 4 was indeed experiencing the side affects sslhr mentioned.
To balance this post for those who don’t follow my thread on cosmeticenhancements, I have very good results with lhr on u/a except for these new hairs. And also good results on lower leg treatments. Overall, I am happy with lhr so far and the boards both cosm… and hairtell have, and continue to, help me a lot! So thanks to all!
Same thing happend to me. What would our laser induced hair growth be considered? I am a 24 year old male, and let me tell ya, I have 400% more hair on my upper arms, shoulders, etc.
It’s not genetic either. My dad is extremely hairy yet has only back hair, and almost no upper arm, and shoulder hair like I have. It doesn’t make since. It came out of nowhere. I admit I had 30-40% clearance on my stomach, none really on my chest. But definitely laser induced hair growth on my shoulders and arms. It’s going to end up costing me over 20 grand to remove thru electrolysis in the long run probably. I mean it is a forest.
Chuck, are you paying $63 per hour for electrolyisis, for this area?
Since you have such a large area and if you are showing up every week, do you think there is a possibility that your electrologist would consider giving you a package deal or cutting the hourly rate. Many electrologists do this.
How have you progressed? What method is she/he using? Twenty grand is a crazy number for back hair removal per electrolysis. $3,000 - $4,000 at the most should be the ball park figure if one is doing flash or microflash with the correct size probe and keeps an area cleared and maintained throughout the process.
Dee
P.S. The 3-$4,000 figure was for a whole back, upper arms and shoulders, by the way. It is possible to get what you are doing, done for less.
I feel you man, I was the same way. I had not one single hair on my upper arms or shoulders and I mean NOT ONE! Now I have a forest growing and I have been so upset since that day forward. This has changed a lot of things in my life, but with life comes obstacles and with obstacles comes the will to move forward. I guess that is what we are doing…but this sure is one helluva way to go about it!
I’m actually getting laser today for the probably 30th something time on upper arms and shoulders. I just started electrolysis again. I found someone close by for $78.00 an hour. She is using the thermolysis method and she is very caring and compassionate. I appreciate that because I feel like an animal walking in there. She actually did an extra 45 minutes because she “feels terrible” about my situation. She does not even pay attention to the clock. I actually feel guilty and keep telling her, but she just does not seem to care. So, I’m going to go every two weeks. She did clear a lot of hair, but I have read that Thermolysis does have like 60% regrowth (I think). I thought about those numbers and since she removed so much hair, it probably actually works out to be the same as the blend method. I thought I was going to feel her plucking more hairs with this method, but I honestly did not feel that much plucking at all. So maybe the results will be better than I thought. I guess we’ll wait and see.
Either way, it’s going to cost a crap load of money. The laser manufacturers should have warned medical professionals/techs of the possible adverse reactions to treatment, so consumers can be warned. I for one would have never lasered my forearms if I knew there was a chance of upper arm hair growth. Now I’m paying a fortune to get back to where I originally was. Just keep plugging away and I’m sure when we finally do become cleared, the cure for hair removal will be discovered! Just my luck!
I’ve had about 35-40 laser tx. I did not laser them initially, I had the hair from my forearm removed. About 6 weeks later, I saw all of these black little beads forming on my upper arms and shoulders. They were itchy and the next thing you know, I started growing hair. The weirdest thing ever! So I never touched my forearms again (it all grew back and some, but it looks a little thinner) and started treating my upper arms and forearms. Here were are now over 3 years and still treating with no results with laser. It’s temorary waxing at this point. That is why I am going back to electrolysis to get permanent results. Money is the issue, so I cannot spend $500-600.00 every 6 weeks. I did that for awhile and just kept draining my bank account. So I’m going in moderation.
wow. that’s a lot of treatments, especially every 6 weeks. if you have hair to treat that early, it’s a good indication the treatments are not working. you’re just burning off the top of the hair and that’s all. it actually sounds like they’re too fine for laser which is why this usually happens. did you ever have a chance to confirm if they were using an 18mm or 15mm spot size? i’m trying to figure out if you were treated at max settings. Also, what does $500-600 cover?
I’m have never trusted percentage statements in regard to hair growth or regrowth because there are too many variables like:
the professional’s ‘skill to kill’ level, probe size used, type of probe used, intensity, timing, insertion accuracy, type of epilator used, phase of hair growth, medications, client’s stress levels, client’s hormonal environment, client’s age, client’s compliance (no sneaky tweezing on the side) and on and on and on. How do you study this and come up with percentages with all these “what if’s”?
All I know is, the fastest way to success for large or small areas is through microflash thermolysis, first clearance and maintaining the cleared area on a good time schedule. No tweezing sensation should be felt.
I didn’t say this was the only way to success, but it is the fastest way and it works well, if the electrologist is proficient at doing microflash with good equipment, including epilator and vision wear. If she/he has only been trained to do the blend and she/he feels the most comfortable and proficient doing the blend, then you are still a winner.
Just wanted to make a point about percentages of regrowth, such as the 60% quoted from somewhere, about thermolysis. I personally have not seen this to be true.
Yeah, I pay 55 dollars at one place, and 62 at the other. I would like to do more Microflash, but the elecrolysist that does that does not have time to see me any more than one time a week for an hour. Personally, I don’t really feel that thermolysis is much slower. It definitely is slower, but it seems to be better. The areas I have had treated don’t see any hair pop up within the next 4-5 weeks really, while with microflash i get ingrowns and more stubble, but that probably has to do with the operator.
I really don’t think 3-4 grand for the entire thing would cut it.I have hair on every square MM on my upper arms, shoulders, delts, and way way upper back. I’m not jokin, all areas. I mean hair continously from lower arm extends to upper arm and to shoulders. There is no gap except for about an inch by the elbow.
I haven’t got a package deal from any electrolysist yet, and no electrolysist has ever done anything for me for free. In fact, I put in about 4 hours a week at the gal that does the Thermolysis on me, and she charges 55 an hour. One time, she couldn’t do the full two hours, and only could go hour and thirty minutes and charged me about 35 dollars for the half hour even after I already went an hour! I thought that was kind of BS. 55/2 is not 35…it wasn’t alot of money but it was the intergrity of the issue.
I started doing electrolysis on January 11th, and I’ve had 23 sessions so far, and almost 32 hours. Only 8 of which are with the Flash. So right now I am averaging 3.5 hours of electrolysis a week. I have almost cleared the right side of my area, I probably only need about 6 more hours to get rid of the hair on my lower upper arms. About 60% of my area has been cleared on the left side. I have been doing Flash on the left, and Theremolysis on the right.
Hi there,
There are hundreds of dormant regenerative hair cells (also called germinative hair cells) embedded in skin and the follicular wall that surrounds the hair. Think of them as dormant ‘seedling’ hair cells, the electrologist can’t see them with the naked eye to remove them and they have no pigment to absorb the laser light, so they remain somewhat undisturbed with laser treatments. When you have either laser or electrolysis treatments blood will rush to the area to heal the damaged tissue of the follicles that were treated with laser. This circulating blood will carry with it nutrients, oxygen and hormones to the area in which the follicle wall and nourishing papilla resides. The hormones carried by the blood will stimulate the growth of these dormant ‘seedling’ or germinative hair cells. Once stimulated germinative hair cells can form into mature follicles and produce a mature hair. This can happen in areas outlying the treated areas. This peripheral hair is finer than the original and wouldn’t be much trouble to destroy with either laser or electrolysis. If they very fine then laser light will not be absorbed by the melanin within the hair since there is not enough of it.
To Chuck -
Interesting treatment, but Flash is Thermolysis.
There are only two types of current used in electrolysis that the FDA call Permanent Hair Removal - Radio Frequency and Direct Current (RF and DC.)
Electrolysis methods are Flash Thermolysis (Auto RF), Galvanic (DC) and the Blend which is a combination of RF and DC (currents.) Now slow thermolysis was used decades ago but it seems strange someone would use it now. The Blend is the most effective electrolysis treatment, it offers both RF and DC.
However, I’ve found that laser is really much more effective than electrolysis of any kind. As a young man however, you’ll realistically get a lot of regrowth with any methods until the hair follicles, their nourishing structure and the germinative hair cells are destroyed.
I’ve been a licensed electrologist since 1990 and a certified laser tech since 1998. If you’re on the east coast come and see us for help. I don’t know if I can post my company here though.
Jayne
… I had lhr on u/a amongst other areas and after 2nd treatment noticed a few new hairs on the periphery of treated area. These were treated and after 3rd treatment I had many more of these peripheral hairs appear and the area seemed to extend. These were treated again and after fourth treatment, I have fewer re-appear so doesn’t seem like the increase is continuing. I am debating whether to have my 5th treatment.