Laser hair removal - stimulated hair questions

Hair Removal Information Sources Laser/Light-based Manufacturers
#1

Hello all, I have some questions about PH stimulated hair growth (yes I’ve read all the FAQs already) (Female 30 years old)

  • 3 years ago I got laser done at a dermatologist office. I think the practitioner wasn’t the best bc she told me I didn’t even need to shave before sessions. I got 5-6 sessions done and noticed paradoxical hair growth on my upper arms and full back. I couldn’t tell if it was net new hair or vellus hair that went terminal.

  • I tried a new location and went for another 10 sessions, but this place was undertreading me. (I didn’t know anything about the risks of undertreatment at the time). I felt little to no pain during the sessions

  • I moved cities for work and went to a 3rd place, and they taught me about undertreatment. They used slightly higher settings (nothing too drastic), and, after about 6 more sessions, somewhat got the hair under control. Then one day my tech was out sick, so I got a new tech. Again, I felt very little pain during her session, and 4 weeks after that session noticed ALL the paradoxical growth was back, as if we did NOTHING. Apparently my OG tech never entered my settings in the system, so the new tech didn’t know.

Question 1: This 3rd place got the original PH hair under control (PH hairs seemingly went dormant, because I only saw mild regrowth between my sessions), but did the new tech re-stimulated those same hairs again due to lower settings, or is the regrowth I’m seeing net new PH hairs that have been newly stimulated?

Question 2: Theoretically, once you induce PH hair growth, can you keep stimulating new hairs in that same area? In other words, since I’ve been doing LHR for 3 years now, I imagine all the stimulation happened in the first 5-6 sessions I did that first year. But is it possible that, with every session I’ve been doing since, I’ve been creating more stimulated PH hairs? I’m hoping that, after a certain point, you can only stimulate a certain amount of PH hair. I haven’t ever stopped laser longer than 5 month durations to assess regrowth and net damage. I’ve taken two separate 5 months breaks and the stimulated hair seems more or less the same, not improving but also not getting worse. If I pause for longer than 5 months, like say 2 years, will I look like chewbacca. I’m pretty sure this is an irrational fear, but I’d feel better if I got some expert opinions on this. If with each laser session I’m potentially creating more stimulation, then I need to stop immediately.

Question 3: I went back to this 3rd place and finally insisted on even higher settings. The manager agreed. They are now using the following settings and said will keep increasing from here. What do you guys think about these settings for fine stimulated paradoxical hair on upper back and upper arms? She said she’ll keep increasing each time we meet. I want to give laser another chance with higher settings, but not if I will keep making my hair worse? Has anyone seen any success with laser treating PH hair on upper back and arms?

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#2

Has anyone commented here? Nothing shows up in my feed.??

To SadOwl93,
Sorry you are going through so much back and forth with different laser facilities.
I have questions for you…
Are you on HRT or any medication that may have side effects with hair growth?
Are you using any temporary methods of hair removal in between laser sessions such as waxing, plucking or threading?

As for the settings…I wouldn’t go there because it is not ethical for us professionals to determine other folks settings. Simply put, currents in their building may be different in other locations. Also, the manufacturing companies have settings inside the machine that the technician can pre-set to your skin type and type of hair. Set the machine, then they may adjust it from there if need be for more or less joules.

To begin with, if the hair was vellus or finer type hair, in some cases, yes, some folks, although it’s on the rarer side, can get a paradoxical effect in treatment, even if you have the best technician (professional). So in some cases it feels like you need to start over to some degree:(

When I have seen this happen from a new client from another clinic, I recommend three treatments in a row with laser every 2-3 weeks. Stick to it. That helps to catch the anagen stage (best active growth stage). Generally it solves the problem. OR start electrolysis.

Hope this helps. Take care.
Anyone with hair removal or skin care questions or need some guidance, reach out:
EMAIL: drlaser@comcast.net

#3

Thank you for your response, it’s the first and only reply I’ve gotten. Have you ever had any success treating anyone with PH? If so was it also on their upper back and upper arms? I just feel so alone. Every other girl I know has this issue on their face, which is, comparably, a much smaller surface area than the back. :confused:

#4

Hi there,
Sorry you have not received many responses but your question has multiple concerns and requires a conversation rather than a simple answer. But I will try.

Paradoxical hypertrichosis usually happens due to under treatment with the laser, the wrong hair is being treated or the client has a hormone issue especially PCOS.
According to studies, PCOS responds best to Electrolysis. Laser can be used to assist if the facial hair is thick, black and beard like. I use laser to make my client psychologically comfortable with their appearance and then use Electrolysis to completely remove the hair. A lot of Electrologists don’t agree with this, but I have had great success for permanent hair removal for my clients using this method of combing laser and Electrolysis for 20 years.

With this 20 years experience with laser, I have found the results from laser on fine hair that often found on female upper arms and back to be questionable and time frames cannot be given. Expectations should be long term permanent reduction not permanent removal.
To have any success the laser treatments have to be aggressive with lots of cooling to protect the skin and multiple pulses are best. Hair on the upper arms and back of a female may have some colour but the finer texture will not absorb the laser energy required for destruction of the follicle. For that reason, I will not treat those areas in my practice. Your best option would be to find an Electrologist who specializes in large body areas if you want the hair permanently gone. But it will take a very long time and a lot of dedication.

The answer to your question regarding the settings is I don’t know. There are so many machines on the market and many have low level power. I prefer the well known “big guns” of the industry as their technology is reputable. Many salons and Medspas carry the cheaper lasers and their technicians are not educated and lack the experience to give clients the best results.

Will you become a “Chewbaca” if you stop laser for a couple years is again “I don’t know”. There is no way to know. I do have clients that have come to me for your same issues. My recommendations to them if the Electrolysis route is not an option, is to continue with the laser as long as the laser clinic is reputable. If you are getting long term reduction, just realize that this will part of your self care once or twice a year. Less than your nails, head hair or waxing and you won’t get ingrown hairs.

The common observation among clients who have come to me to resolve problems, is my treatments are way more painful and I always work with a Zimmer Chiller for skin safety. Higher fluences will get better results. With laser, no pain is no gain.

Clinics need to give their clients realistic goals and expectations. Hormones, genetics, medications, skin types, and gender all have to be taken into consideration when discussing treatments with the clients.

I hope this helps.

Best always,
Joyce
Palmer Laser & Electrolysis
Richmond Hill, On, Canada
L4E 2Y2
joycemichellepalmer@gmail.com

#5

Thank you for the detailed reply. Have you ever met any females who had PH on the back? I suppose I just feel really alone since most women have this issue on their face only. It’s hard for me to connect online with those who have this issue on larger areas. Also, for me, my hormones are fine, in fact my testosterone levels are low! Yet this still happened. Do you have any experience / know of any laser techs who actually successfully treated non hormonal PH via laser? My definition of success would be to get my stimulated hairs to go back to fine light vellus hairs. I actually miss my original mild hairiness :confused: that, or achieve hairlessness on these stimulated regions for a few years at a time before touch ups.

#6

Unfortunately yes I have seen paradoxical hypertrichosis on the back and upper arms. It is very difficult to treat as the hair is long but not really that thick. Lasers want thick, black heavy hair. I don’t even treat a man’s back unless they understand it will only be a reduction and the treatments will be on going to maintain it.

For women it is the opposite. The fine, short vellus hair becomes longer and more dense.
The scientific papers say to keep treating and eventually as the hair becomes thicker, then the laser will work. Basically stimulate and then treat. I don’t agree. Body areas with fine, dark hair should not be treated at all. Areas like the underarms, bikini and lower legs amazing results by laser for the perfect candidate.

You are in a tough spot. It’s a large area. If you came to me, I would give you the options of continuing laser or starting Electrolysis.
Making sure you understand all possible outcomes. Both ways it will take time and money.
I am really sorry you are going through this.
The beauty industry is full of scammers, untrained and dishonest people.

If you have any more questions or concerns, I am happy to try to answer them.

Best always,
Joyce
Palmer Laser & Electrolysis

#7

Thank you again for that response! So, in your experience, have you seen continuous laser treatments actually reverse non-hormonal paradoxical hypertrichosis hair back to its original vellus state? A lot of people recommend continuing laser to fix it, but I wonder has anyone ever done this successfully. I assume it’s harder with stimulated facial hair bc it’s hormonal. Just looking for hope to see if continued laser will work at high settings. If not, I’ll just cut my losses now and move to electrolysis.