L.I.T.?

Hair Removal Methods Professional Electrolysis
#1

Dee Dee, yesterday you mentioned your “light bulb” experience and I want to continue that conversation with you (and others). I could not find your post (too lazy to sift thru all the threads), so I’m just starting a new one …

As I mentioned, I have seen “total hair-cycle reversal,” i.e., more than 97% of hairs ending up in telogen, after “significant” laser treatment. I believe that this phenomenon is discussed in the literature (“prolonged telogen-induced hairs following laser treatment?”), but I will let “our” Brenton find it … he’s GREAT at doing this. (Gotta love that kid.)

I wonder if we might be able to NAME this? Like we did “TTT” for “total treatment time?” “Laser-Induced Telogen (“L.I.T.)?” I’ll think of something.

After more than 15 years of observing this, I’m convinced. I mostly see this on men, who are NOT shaving, waxing … but just leaving the area alone after they decided laser treatments were not what they wanted.

However, can you imagine what you would see if, say, the person decided to resume WAXING? In an area that is now 97% telogen, what would you expect to see with a “post-laser waxer?” Probably less than 1% of the actual hairs showing (in anagen)?

I don’t what this to be my customary long-winded post, so I’ll shut up for now. I will add more observations and recommendation IF the Hairtell community wants to “pick up” this thread.

Note: To those about to “pounce,” I am NOT saying that this situation happens with EVERY laser patient. Furthermore, I do not know the “scientific” reason for this and I’m not speculating on the cause.

One “absolute certainly” however, is that with a guy that now presents almost ONLY telogen hairs on his back? … I am still able to remove these hairs and get REAL permanent results (almost no difference than an “untouched” area). “No Problema!” So, can telogen hairs (follicles) be destroyed by electrolysis? There is no doubt in my “shriveled little cerebellum” at all!

#2

Dee’s post:

I can’t find any articles about this, but rather some authors just making note of this observation in an introduction to study other things.

I’ve talked to some electrologists who say it’s only possible to treat anagen and anagen only. I’m curious as to what they’d say to a client who had 97% telogen (“Oh I’m sorry, there’s nothing I can do for you?”)

Mike, from your experience if you’ve seen clients after multiple laser treatments (since you have them wait a year), do you notice that hair is gone gone or just thinner to the point where it’s nearly invisible to the human eye unless one was inspecting? I’m curious because if laser is converting all the hair to telogen, that would then be expected to render all other laser treatments in that area ineffective.

#3

And yes, that is a point well taken! From my observations (at least 25 people) the remaining telogen hairs “stay there and maintain the same size.” (One client waited 4 years before starting up electrolysis again.) All of these cases had large (60 unit) telogen hairs.

Yes, the point of ineffective laser on the telogen hairs is something that has concerned me. I don’t think that these cases are all that typical, however.

But, for me, I always warn the “returning” patient that I no longer can predict the final time for completion. Normally I can finish a guy in about 9 - 10 months, but now I have to wait for the greatly delayed returning hairs. Bad deal!

The other difficulty is that with the patients that want to come from thousands of miles away, it’s absolutely useless to visit me! They are going to need many many treatments of short duration … not the “mega-marathons with local” that I prefer to do. If patients can’t benefit from my strategy, I won’t start them. I hate disappointments: both the client and me.

I have a suspicion that the guy that stated he had “10 years of laser ‘pick up’ … “ might actually be experiencing this “L.I.T?” Eventually, this should all work, however.

#4

BTW, Brenton … you really SHOULD consider “becoming one of us!” We need people like you in this crazy field. Yeah, the pay is bad … but, it’s fun!

#5

Brenton Quote (I gave up trying to do this “hairtell quote thing”):

Brenton: “I’ve talked to some electrologists who say it’s only possible to treat anagen and anagen only. I’m curious as to what they’d say to a client who had 97% telogen (“Oh I’m sorry, there’s nothing I can do for you?”)”

If that’s what they believe that IS what they should say: “Can’t do this!”

#6

Hi,

I’m a bit interested in this, how would one know that most of the hair is staying in telogen? What’s the period of time required to judge?

#7

Allow me to speculate on this matter. The laser produces a miniaturization in the follicles. Terminal hairs therefore becomes a type hair “vellus”. The vellus has a long, long telogen phase, and a very short anagen phase. After laser what was most in anagen, is now mostly in telogen. The cycle is reversed because the diameter of the follicle has been reduced.

#8

You are (as always) probably right Jossie … but, here’s the part that interests me (as you say) …

“The laser produces a miniaturization in the follicles.”

Just HOW does this happen? What is the biological mechanism? That’s my question.

Yes, we see a “cause and effect” here, but what’s the mechanism?

#9

What is end goal behind trying to figure out whether “L.I.T.” is real and how it occurs on cellular level? If Electrolysis can effectively treat hairs in ALL phases, then why does it matter if 97% of hairs post laser turn into telogen?

Eelctrolysis is 120 years old and there are still a lot of questions left to each electrologists’ speculation and imagination because there are no scientific studies being conducted in this field. Laser hair removal is only a 15 year old technology so give it time. Too bad knowledgeable laser experts have fled Hairtell. We used to have an M.D. with laser/biomedical engineering that was doing some work on laser hair removal.

#10

Oh good heavens no lol, but thank you for believing I would make a good contribution to this field! Although I will say you guys definitely meet some interesting people, there is too much undiscovered science in other areas I would like to focus my attention in. Then again, with how much time I’ve spent with hair removal, I should contribute something to this field…

#11

Fenix,

It has been made obvious to me pretty swiftly after my initial attempts at participating on this forum that laser experts are not very welcome. While I can’t change that, I do intend to change the fact there are no laser experts on Hairtell. If I cannot be that expert, I will definitely consult them to give you all the answers I can.

#12

What do you think, why arent laser experts welcome in this forum?! Dont you think too many people had no/too bad results from laser no matter what type, what settings, and how ideal the hair collor was? Dont you think this could be at least one of the reasons?!

I understand that everyone needs to earn theyr money, but why not with somethink what helps people, contributes to something. In my eyes, LASER (or IPL) is a halfbaked technology for hair removal which is presented like the best and allmost infallible technology and the perfect treatment for everyone - but oh, you need to sign a paper where in some little percentage (1-2% maybe) could unexpected end up without results - and then after a year of treatment, many end up like that (certainly unexpected) what you can see in many cases here on Hairtell.

Sadly a similar situation is allso within electrologists, many of the dont know what theyre doing, and where many times you need a lawyer to start an treatment to be sure it does not end up just throwing your money away from the window…This makes me really sad :frowning:

This wasnt intended to offend or attack anyone, its just how I see the situation from my experience/ point of view.

#13

That’s no excuse. This forum needs to be welcome to EVERYONE, and there is absolutely zero justification to not have it be so. There are plenty of us here who have had good results with laser, so just because you didn’t doesn’t make laser a “halfbaked” technology.

#14

Brenton,

When Miro says ‘halfbaked’ I think he is somewhat justified. We all know Laser is only really suited to certain body areas with a certain kind of hair growth and even then and with a perfect treatment scenario, the results are sometimes unpredictable.

I’ve had successful treatments myself but I have experienced first hand during guiding relatives (my sister, my cousins, my friends) through the same process that Laser treatments are unpredictable.

Couple with this the very legitimate comments from people like Michael regarding ‘what is LASER actually doing??’ and one realises it is not really well understood at all. This doesn’t preclude one from getting good results but I’m sure it’s what contributes to the unpredictability.

#15

I think I will add here one of my cousin’s current predicament.

About two years ago, her and her sister approached me in regards to Laser because they knew I had experienced good results. They wanted to know details about clinics, technicians, equipment, settings etc.

One sister paid close attention to my suggestions and limited Laser to the underarms and lower legs and has had excellent results from only a few treatments - like me, only three on the lower legs. The other sister (a medical Dr.) was not so receptive since she felt she knew better. I advised her not to treat her arms since I felt the hair was really too fine to respond. She went ahead with a multiple area package. I’ve not seen her properly since and never felt to inquire. I met the younger sister recently and the hair removal topic came up and I asked how both their results were. Her reply was that her sister’s arms were ‘messed up’. So obviously I asked ‘in what way?’. The reply was that she experienced the induced growth that I was talking about. In her case, the arm hair has become more dense and now grows much longer.

I can relate to the longer growth as even in my successful areas, the little hair that is left just seems to keep on growing at an accelerated rate. I don’t think this phenomenon is understood and probably never been investigated as it’s post ‘successful treatment’.

#16

No. I think the main reason is the poor attitude with which experts are received. No matter how many bad experiences there have been with laser hair removal, there are tons more good experiences. Consumers with good things to say about hair removal are not going to participate in a forum full of electrologists who regularly bad mouth hair removal, and look for new clients who are disappointed with laser. It’s just the target audience this site has decidedly catered to.

It is actually pretty advanced technology, and quite easy to understand. Most consumers posting on this page find it by searching for complaints boards on hair removal. Most professionals on this board are electrologists with little to no experience doing laser hair removal. Introduce laser experts, and you have an immediate conflict of interest with those who participate on the site, and those who come for information.

As for misconceptions, misinformation, preconceived notions, or just plain ignorance- much of it abounds on this website with regard to laser hair removal. While some of you may be upset, it may benefit you to at least empower yourself with the knowledge of truth, rather than just being pissed off over an experience, and disregarding facts entirely.

#17

If this were the manner in which all matter were dealt with in humanity- that is, third party information through hearsay- we would never get anywhere.

Laser hair removal works. Yes- there is a small percentage of people who react as unexpected. There are also thousands of practitioners, hundreds if not thousands of laser, IPL, and BBL makes and models, and millions of possible combinations of treatment parameters, equipment used, practitioner, and patient. When laser is performed correctly by a trained professional using an appropriately serviced device under the appropriate parameters for the patient in question- then the complaints seem to almost disappear.

#18

CRC, I can’t speak for the rest of HairTell but I feel an honest Laser professional would be welcomed.

LAgirl does an excellent job answering questions when she has the time. Chris from Romeo&Juliet does the same.

We need someone who will honestly say stuff like; “the hair on your X area is too fine to respond well to Laser”, “you probably shouldn’t have your shoulder’s treated as this area is prone to experience induced growth”.

Not to mention, it would be REALLY nice if there could be some admission that further LASER cannot remove induced growth. I’ve lost count of how many people beyond this forum have contacted me for advice on what they can do for their induced growth - because their clinic told them they just need more treatments but they have been continuing for 1/2/3 years with no change. I know one poor girl who after experiencing it on her face, tried two very reputable clinics (one after the other) to resolve it but was unsuccessful at both.

#19

If this were the manner in which all matter were dealt with in humanity- that is, third party information through hearsay- we would never get anywhere.

Laser hair removal works. Yes- there is a small percentage of people who react as unexpected. There are also thousands of practitioners, hundreds if not thousands of laser, IPL, and BBL makes and models, and millions of possible combinations of treatment parameters, equipment used, practitioner, and patient. When laser is performed correctly by a trained professional using an appropriately serviced device under the appropriate parameters for the patient in question- then the complaints seem to almost disappear.
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Ok, would you like me to get her on here? Judging from your reply, you would still dismiss it.

I give up with this ‘dialogue’.

To the rest of HairTell who have acted on my ‘hearsay’, I guess none of you have achieved permanent hair removal, have you? :wink:

[p.s. I have a doctorate in engineering and a background in medical physics, so make of that what you will.]

#20

An honest professional doesn’t just parrot what consumers want to hear. More often than not, an honest professional comes wielding information that may not satisfy consumers. For example, I wouldn’t say “the hair on x area is too fine to respond well to laser”- I would say “the hair on this area would respond best to this laser, or that one.”

An honest professional wouldn’t warn of induced hair growth- an honest professional knows how to prevent sublethal damage to the periphery of the treated area so as not to cause vellus hair to shock, and go anagen. It is completely contradictory to say, on the one hand- this hair is too fine to respond to laser hair removal, yet on the other hand- this hair may become anagen after laser hair removal causing thicker and darker growth.

These are, honestly, not issues that rise up in every day conversation among laser professionals- it is a conversation that begins with uninformed consumers, and takes life on a forum like this one, where the majority of professionals profit from skepticism with regard to laser hair removal.

Again, that is contradictory to logic. Should this notion be proven, then of course- I’m sure an honest professional to whom it has been proved will make this admission, but no professional SHOULD contemplate this speculative accusation without proper documentation for review.

Did you report any of these incidents to the FDA? While I may lose count of customer complaints I receive- I report them all to the FDA as is appropriate. What I’ve lost count of is how many emails, letters, and reports I’ve submitted to THEM. I’m not saying you’ve done something wrong by not reporting these incidents- what I’m saying is that anecdotal evidence in the medical field (this IS the medical field) cannot be taken into consideration within the context of appropriately reported incidents, investigations, and studies.

Did you contact the clinic for them? Did you try to find out which device, and treatment parameters were used?

Which reputable clinics? What makes them reputable? If they are reputable, yet laser hair removal doesn’t work, or causes problems- how, again, are they reputable? What equipment do they use? What parameters did they use on her? How long did she go for, and at each clinic? These stories sound more like consumers trying to dictate to a professional what should and shouldn’t be done. A patient for laser hair removal that visits several clinics isn’t necessarily trying to solve an issue. There are people that are just addicted to cosmetic procedures, and tend to find problems with every little thing.

I would like to hear one of these stories where the patient actually documented treatment parameters, time it took to perform each procedure, how far apart each procedure was, hopefully pictures of what the area looked like before treatment, the education level of the practitioner, the device, a service report showing the device was actually delivering adequate power to begin with, etc.

I regularly contact my customers- most of which are under a 12 month service agreement, to inquire about customer satisfaction as it is the only gauge I have site unseen for whether or not there are problems with the laser. I often have them read off parameters, skin types, etc. to me just to make sure they are using their devices correctly. I have NEVER had a customer complain about paradoxical hypertrichosis, though I will be sure to inquire about this specifically from now on.

As far as MAUDE goes, and actual reporting- there are no reports of paradoxical hypertrichosis.