Is this normal regrowth, progress?

Hair Removal Methods Professional Electrolysis
#1

I have been getting hour long electrolysis treatments every other week since February. This amounts to 13 hours so far. I have previously laser treated facial hair. (3 years of laser, which seemed to produce results, but everything grew back within a year. Then I went to monthly plucking for the next several years. I stopped plucking back in November.) We decided that we would start with the hairs on my cheeks/chin/jaw and work our way down my neck as we cleared areas.
I’m trying to understand if the amount of regrowth I’m getting is acceptable or a sign that I could do better with another technician. Even though the same areas have been treated 12 times, I am still getting hairs growing in those areas. They are finer, mostly, though some are still heavy and dark. I’ve had some ingrowns, which I would take to be a bad sign, meaning that the hairs weren’t killed and removed at the root. I do feel some of the insertions. Not a lot, but enough to notice.
I was hoping that by Christmas we’d be able to at least get a first clearance - covering everything I’ve got at least once - but at the rate we’re going, I’m kinda thinking that that’s not going to happen. We are dealing with regrowth in original areas every visit, so that we are addressing only very small areas of new stuff at each appointment. I had mentally estimated 30 hours for my case, but seeing as we’re almost to the halfway point of that, and I’m not nearly halfway done, I’m getting discouraged. My husband keeps asking me if it’s working too. He wants numbers and guarantees of how long this is going to take, and he can’t quite get that this is a subjective business, based highly on the individual facts of each person’s hair situation and previous hair removal methods.
I want so badly to be done. I can’t really afford to go more frequently. As it is, the $1300 we’ve spent already has been a sacrifice.
My electroligist is a lovely, professional person. She wears loupes, has intensive lighting, mentioned the possibility that laser could cause regrowth. She seems to know her stuff. I’ve never mentioned the problem with the insertions, and that’s completely my fault. I’ve very bad at telling people when I am dissatisfied. I don’t want to sound picky, and maybe feeling a few insertions is as good as it’s going to get. I’m just so anxious to get done.
It’s so discouraging to have to grow everything out every two weeks, to hide in my house, to try to hide under scarves when I do go out, to cancel plans with friends, pass up on opportunities all because I’m having to grow out my facial hair for appointments every two weeks.

I guess this is half discouraged rant and half asking for advice. I just thought I might be farther along by now. 13 hours just seems like such a long time.

Figuring out how to add some before and after pics of how far we’ve gotten. Maybe my case is just really tough, given how much previous hair removal was done. :frowning: I’m in the northern Chicagoland area.

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#2

Given that it is 10 months since you last tweezed anything, I would expect more progress by now. The fact that there is ongoing shaving makes it more difficult to interpret exactly what is going on here. Do the hairs release without resistance? Did you take any photographs prior to commencing treatments? Did you ever have a trial session with another practitioner? When the treatment is progressing as it should, at this point there should be no doubt about the process at all. I think it is time to have some new consults and trial sessions. Hopefully you will happen upon someone who can clear this up for you quickly. Has anyone here got a trusted referral for this area?

#3

If you have treated the same area 12 times with no reduction, something is wrong. I would get another few consults.

#4

I agree with Christine. At this point, the areas which have been treated every 2 weeks should show a hardly noticeable hair type, with a total growth of less than half a centimeter, and certainly without the need to be shaved or trimmed in the range of two weeks due its nature classified as vellus hairs.

Let me clarify a few things:

“My husband keeps asking me if it’s working too. He wants numbers and guarantees of how long this is going to take, and he can’t quite get that this is a subjective business, based highly on the individual facts of each person’s hair situation and previous hair removal methods.”

No subjectivity in the act of inserting a probe, applying sufficient current to destroy each hair follicle which presents a visble hair on the surface of the skin. No matter what you have been doing with your hairs in the past (the difference is that the follicles are deeper, therefore larger area must be destroyed) . No matter if your hormone levels are through the roof (the man has higher levels of testosterone and you can kill each of the hairs of his beard in one try).

The only aspect that depends on each individual is the degree and duration of the inflammatory response, the degree and duration of hyperpigmentation (if any), and the eventual development of new hairs (if any). The rest only depends on the skill and proper training of the electrologist.

I pored over your photos. The hair density in areas that have not been treated is kept constant. Which means NO new hairs have developed since February (the start of treatment?), At least not thick enough so that they can be seen in the photo “after”.

Even if you are shaving between sessions, six months is enough time to work on all coarse hairs located in the treatment area.

In conclusion, emphatically yes, at this point things could have gone better.

“I don’t want to sound picky….”

You are not who should be afraid to be picky, but your electrologist who should be brave enough to consider whether her/his technique can improve.

#5

Thank you all so much for your input. I do feel some resistance with some of the hairs coming out, but I can’t always tell whether that’s because the hairs are thick and I’m feeling the fat roots coming through the skin or if it’s because the hair isn’t quite killed before she tries to get them out. :frowning:
I tried one other practitioner before settling on this woman. The other one was even worse technique-wise (bad lighting, bad skin reaction after, seemed to fumble around a lot getting each hair). I think I will try someone else.
Also, I’m planning on getting my hormones tested in the next few months. I suppose it’s possible that the reason my regrowth has been this much is because I have an underlying condition that is interfering with treatment.
I think I have seen results, just not sure how much. I’m trying to figure out if the results I’ve seen are from good work or from undertreatment/just plain plucking. :confused:

And just to ask for one more opinion. If you were me, would you look for another practitioner and continue at this current rate, or would you halt treatment until I had had my hormones tested? I have regular periods and no other symptoms, as far as I can tell. I’m so very ready to be done. So very ready. :frowning:

#6

Also, I rarely shave the areas that have been treated. Only the areas that we aren’t working on yet. Otherwise, I’d have a half beard ALL THE FREAKING TIME. :frowning: So, with the amount of reduction I’ve had, I shave the areas we’re working on maybe once just to get the few hairs that show up toward the 10 day post treatment mark or so.
And in case it matters, I was laser treated between 2003-2006. So I haven’t had laser in years.

#7

If you feel ANY resistance on the removal of hairs, your electrologist is not sufficiently treating the follicle and it will produce a hair again (regrowth).

Please get this notion out of your head about fat roots struggling to get out. Personally, I think it is misinformation like this that lets bad electrologist practice persist. Even if it is possible, you are not going to feel it.

Electrologist are human like the rest of us and will sometimes make mistakes but if the electrologist is doing his/her job properly, it should be rare that you feel anything on the extraction.

http://www.hairtell.com/forum/ubbthreads.php/topics/99412/stoppit_tidyup.html#Post99412

http://www.hairtell.com/forum/ubbthreads.php/topics/102421/follizap.html#Post102421

#8

“Please get this notion out of your head about fat roots struggling to get out.”

>>> Thanks UK girl … I don’t “buy” this notion either.

The root that we remove in not IN a follicle, it’s the follicle itself. I mean, the outer root and epidermis are continuous. The root is not “stuck” in there.

If I can get my new version of Illustrator to work, I will do a simple drawing to show this.

WHY do these software people think they have to UPGRADE all the time? Once they upgrade, I have to re-learn the “bloody” software all over again!

My “root continuous with epidermis” is illustrated on page 36 of my “blend” book. Maybe I can get this drawing into a .jpeg and put this here on Hairtell. I don’t think people saw the relevance of the drawing … I failed again! A simple drawing would have been MUCH better to show the point.

#9

One thing too. Indeed YES sometimes I do epilate the hair with a “tug.” However, it’s because I did not treat the follicle properly.

In some cases, I will just pull out the hair if I see the skin cannot take another second or so of current. But this is MY error, not the anatomy of the hair doing this.

Okay, I can zap the hair again when it comes back in. It’s nice that we zappers get a “second chance?” (However, I don’t say “oooops” any more when I goof up … it gets the patient nervous! What they don’t know can’t hurt them?)

#10

Here are a couple illustrations that show that the epidermis and the root sheath are continuous (the same layer of cells).

The first drawing is the original pen-and-ink without the shading I did in the book. (I think the shading in the book drawing makes it somewhat confusing). This drawing is trying to show that the root and epidermis are identical. The root is not some “lump” stuck down in a follicle. (Although it DOES look like this when you look at an epilated anagen hair.)

The second drawing is an EPS that also tries to show that the root sheath and epidermis are the same. When you zap a hair, current gets to the anchor point and “tears out” from the epidermis. This “tear point” is illustrated in my book, but I don’t like the illustration very much. Maybe I should re-draw this.

Enjoy! (Gosh, I hope I got rid of the “blue!”)

#11

I notice the parts are not labeled in the EPS drawing, and that’s because the names were done in an “overlay” in another program (PageMaker).

Don’t be confused by looking at the inner root sheath (it’s only a couple cells thick). It’s the OUTER root sheath that comes out with the hair and is that white "lump.” Notice that I have shaded the epidermis and the outer root sheath differently (white for the outer root sheath). Where the shading changes is the tear-out point and the “top” of the root sheath that you see with an epilated hair.

Also, when you insert your needle you are entering the outer root sheath; not putting the needles into some sort of “opening.” An epilated outer root sheath will display a cleft from the needle that penetrated it (Dr. Schuster’s stunning experiments.)

“Zap Happy!”

#12

I skimmed over what you’ve all written and will read more in depth to get the cool anatomical and nerdy details later. :wink: I love the anatomy lessons, and greatly appreciate your time and expertise. The bottom line is that I shouldn’t feel even the gentle tugging that I’ve been interpreting as big fat roots leaving the skin.

So. Thank you, thank you. I think this all means that the electrologist I’ve been seeing has been under-treating me (and possibly not even treating properly, considering the the way I’ve felt some of the insertions), and while I’m deeply disappointed that that is the case, at least I learned it now and didn’t continue on further. I’m so annoyed that this has happened when I so badly needed to find someone GOOD. It’s been almost 15 years of feeling ashamed about my appearance.

For all the talk about just finding someone and sticking with them, I think THIS is why electrolysis gets a bad rap and why I was so nervous to get started in the first place. Because under-treatment (or over-treatment) does occur, and not all electrologists are equally skilled. I thought I did my research, read letters of recommendation, etc. and still ended up with someone who isn’t doing what needs to be done.

Crap. (excuse my french …)

I’m thinking now that I will pursue a different technician. Is there any reason I should discuss this with my current electrologist, mention the technique and regrowth issues? It’s not a conversation I really want to have, but perhaps she needs to know for future reference. I don’t think I can stay on either way. I’m disappointed. :frowning:

#13

I feel like people ask for recommendations on here and don’t always get an answer. But I figure I’ll ask anyway. I’m in northern Chicagoland. I’d think that in a semi-metropolitan area like this, there would be someone that people could recommend. Anyone?

#14

A friend is suggesting that I tell her I’m dissatisfied and ask for some of my money back. I’m hesitant to do that. Is this something I should do, or would be in my rights to do?

#15

Dear granola,

I have high respect for Kelly at Kelly, Inc. I have been to her office, seen her set up, have read her posts on the AEA electrologist site and I can tell you, she knows her stuff. She is a vibrant and loving person who REALLY CARES ABOUT her clients. It be worth a visit to get a consult.

Click here now!
http://www.izapem.com/

#16

Dear Granola,

Please do not take offense at what I’m saying here, I’m speaking generally; not specifically.

I almost never “assist” clients on Hairtell … well, those attempting to decide if their electrologist is doing a good job or not. See, another electrologist CAN look at a practitioner’s work (and watch the work in progress) and determine the skill. A patient cannot do this … ever! And, we certainly cannot judge an electrologist by what a patient says here on Hairtell.

Some of us try to help and in so doing sometimes get in trouble. We get in trouble, because a tiny suggestion gets greatly magnified by the patient. In this case, we are talking about the “feeling” of a hair being removed. What may seem a tug to you may actually be okay. (I would have to feel the thing myself.)

Several times, a mere suggestion by one of the Hairtell regulars will bring down real fury against an unsuspecting electrologist that is actually doing a super job. That’s why I never comment on a “pimple” or a “red mark” or any other PHOTO that cannot show the thing as it really is.

Patients say, “Oh my God, I got a scab!” And maybe we say, “Find someone else!” In reality, maybe the scab was from a pimple that was removed.

Clients should not focus on minute details. Patients are not in any position to accurately rate any electrologist using one or two “tid bits” of information. (In my post, I was not talking about “tugs or pops,” I was mainly interested in talking about the follicle itself.

If I have said anything that made you feel your zapper was inadequate, well, that was NOT my meaning. I’m talking about “anatomy,” and you are looking for the one single answer to your question. We’re not on the “same page.”

For this reason, I will never recommend any electrologist or laser clinic just by reputation or hearsay. How can I possible recommend someone who lives in, say, Cleveland, when I don’t even know the person?

There are ways to discover if your treatments are appropriate and these have been discussed in great detail here. If you are judging your electrologist by what you think is a “tug” you are missing the point.

Here’s the point: are you getting results with your electrologist? How long have you been going? These are the questions that make sense to ask. I would redirect your questions to this group with data that is objective.

Looking at your photos (and your having had laser) 13 hours so far is not out of the question.
Here’s what I would do: ASK the experts here what questions you should be asking. Your “tugging” question steered us in the wrong direction completely and only got you “angry.” Try again …

#17

Actually, I jumped on the point that granola was feeling resistance.

From her initial posts:
Last Laser was in 2006.
Stopped plucking November 2012.
13 hours of TT since February (treatments every 2 weeks) - 6 months have elapsed.
Is shaving between treatments but mainly just the areas that are not being treated.

I jumped on her comment about the resistance given the above information and the photos. If a client was seeing progress after 6 months, despite resistance, it’s unlikely they’d start a thread asking for opinions.

It’s hard for us clients. Most of us go from not knowing a single electrologist to trying to find a good one. And I’m sure all the HairTell clients will agree with me when I say it’s like finding a needle in a haystack. Most people are actually so desperate to have the hair removed that they persist with treatment that is not working or leaving their skin a mess. The kind that chop and change are few.

granola is coming from a position (like most of us) where she is making financial sacrifice to pursue treatments. She deserves the best treatment for her every dollar.

granola - Dee has given you an excellent suggestion. I’d see Kelly for a consult and treatment asap. Let us know how it goes and how it compares to your current treatment.

#18

These pictures submitted by Granolaprincess tells a story. I feel like a wild mustang wanting to go, go go when I see this kind of problem on a woman’s face. Michael, the reason I suggested Kelly is because she does A LOT of work for our dear transwomen. I mean A TON OF WORK. She understands this kind of hair and knows how to punch it good. She is fast and deadly and she is located in Chicagoland in a western suburb.

We cannot be silent when it comes to guiding people or there would be no value or reason for consumers to research a hair removal forum for honest advice. It is not unethical to suggest more research when a client may be losing confidence. Sometimes we can tell her to relax, all is well, and sometimes… no…

This is not about one little scab or red dot here and there. We don’t jump on that kind of minutia because we all know that those reactions are expected. In this case, the woman’s husband is getting impatient and as married woman I know how that feels! This couple have spent $1,300 on electrolysis and if these pictures are any indication of what she has received, I’m thinking a second or third road should be explored. We use this strategy with other professions, why not ours. Thirteen hundred dollars is a lot of money, but if she felt that she was progressing, it would be worth the sacrifice this couple is making, not to mention a great psychological lift.

No, we don’t know all the details unless consumers get right down to it and tell us everything, but we still offer advice as honestly as we can with the information we know, especially if we hear the hair is resisting.

For those of us who work on this kind of hair, seeing those pictures frustrate us because we know what is possible at the 6 month mark. We know how to get her from bearded lady status to smoothie with no worries in 12-18 months. Thus, we have happy husbands as well who haven’t gone broke, so we make two people happy for the price of one.

Granola, even with the most experienced electrologist on board, this is not easy for you or the electrologist. It is an intimate partnership that requires one goal. That goal is passion on both sides to get the hair off as fast as possible and maintain the clear skin until there is no hair left to treat.

I don’t like to recommend people willy billy nilly, but sometimes it makes good sense.

Granola, can you label these pictures? Time wise, what are we looking at and when were these taken? Any other detail would be helpful. No detail is too small!

#19

Well-said Dee. (Folks, this woman “rocks!”)

As usual, I think the State Department should hire you as a diplomat. I suppose I’m coming from the point of view that believes nearly all electrologists are doing a good job. With the photos we see, we can only determine that this is a “serious” case. There is nothing to reference how well treatments are going without an actual starting-point photo … and, with all face cases, you never see that. Always the hairs have been shaved, tweezed, lasered and whatnot.

If her electrologist is doing a great job, it’s right now at the 6-month mark that real results will start to be obvious. Wouldn’t it be “sad” if she switched to someone new and then started noticing real results? Actually, the “good results” would be based on what the previous electrologist had accomplished.

And yes, it is all the “angst” women have with facial hair. Add to it a HUSBAND? A husband? Wow! (Probably an engineer?)

Since I’m only going to be “at this” for another year or so, I have found that primarily doing body work (now) has lowered my own “angst” nearly 100%.

I’m not saying anything negative toward women with facial hair. But not being around all the emotion of the thing has made my own life much easier these days. (That first 6 - 8 months is usually pretty hard on both patient and electrologist.)

#20

You know what? I should not have used the word “rocks!” Erase, erase erase! (Bad choice of words … )