I have a lot of very odd questions!

Hair Removal Methods Professional Electrolysis
#1

Hi :). This is my first post, I hope I get noticed D: . Firstly I’d like to say I love this little community. I can just tell there are a lot of intelligent people here, who really know their stuff. It’s very respectable.
I think electrolysis is rather fascinating. It’s kind of an advanced gland deactivation art form.
My questions though aren’t exactly about hair removal but rather the technology behind it…

I would looove to be able to keep asking all kinds of out-of-the-box questions that I think only professionals could answer, and get some advice, discussion and guidance. I hope I can achieve that here! I really appreciate every answer.

My first questions are…
Insulated needles. I would like to know:

  1. How thin do these needles get? Any at 0.11mm? Are they strong or very bendable at that width?
  2. Are these needles sharp enough (sharp at all?) to easily and cleanly puncture and make an opening (which I understand is bad) if slightly too much pressure was applied? Or are they kind of totally blunt and would just bend/break?
  3. Are there any needles that are only 1.5mm in total length? or is there any avenue to achieve only this depth exactly, any way to order custom made needles or a needle holder that can swallow or extend to only allow a certain depth of needle?
  4. I tried to find information about how much of these needles are not insulted, but I couldn’t really find it. How many millimeters of the tip of these are non-insulated (and thus, get hot)? Are there any that have just 1mm of non-insulation, and then the rest all insulation?
  5. These are mainly used for flash diathermy yes? Can a modern flash diathermy machine be configured in such a way that it does almost nothing? As in, put it inside the follicle, and just simply warm the hair up slightly with basically no pain and no chance of over-damage or effect? Could theoretically this technique be used for someone to teach themselves the technique before the risk of damaging their skin? Are these machines very precisely adjustable for power and flash duration?
  6. Is removing the damaged hair bulb actually necessary for the hair removal, or is that simply to confirm the follicle gland has actually been ablated? If you left the hair inside, would it eventually fall off and die as normal if the technique was successful?
  7. Am I correct that it is very unlikely for the single oil gland accompanying the one hair follicle to survive in a flash diathermy technique? Not that there would be any issue with that as there are thousands of others in the area. How do the other techniques of slow diathermy and galvanic compare with regard to the sebaceous gland?
  8. Are there any specific machines that come to mind that may be of interest to me for a very adjustable flash diathermy? Anything not too huge and not to expensive?
  9. What are the best ways of learning more about the theoretical parts of diathermy flash electrolysis online?
  10. In your experience, how helpful are the insulated needles for a good cosmetic outcome and to reduce the risk of surface scarring?
  11. How in the world does diathermy for thread veins work without actually piercing into the vein? Why doesn’t the surface skin get burnt?

As you can tell, they’re kind of strange questions. But I’d never be able to get answers to this anywhere else. I am interested in piercing the skin as I am also interested in it’s potential for millia, fordyce, cysts and a number of other sebaceous gland problems as well as hair removal. So understanding the technology and the tools available first is my first goal. :slight_smile:

#2

Suggestions:

Order a few books on electrolysis (first) and pour over the information. Your questions are interesting but the answers are easily accessible in print-form. I certainly don’t want to quash your interest in this field, but I also don’t think it’s reasonable to expect "the experts’ here to offer what might end up being an entire electrology course? As I read your questions, I thought, "Where do I start with all this?’

It would be like a kid that has never driven a car, and knows nothing about how it works, to want somebody to explain everything to him. Then again, Mike (Laurier) will probably very graciously answer your queries? He’s really good at it! Go MIKE!

#3

No offense, but you’re basically asking us to spend the next hour or two sitting down explaining electrolysis and advanced techniques in depth, venture into manufacturing technicalities (some of which are potentially proprietary trade secrets), and then wade into the legalities of advanced techniques that may be forbidden by law in your (or our) jurisdictions.

Speaking only for myself, I just finished my 8th consecutive 70ish hour work week (yay spring!) and have less than 36 hours to go before I start another one. If someone here is willing to spend that time for, literally, “some random person,” you owe them a HUGE amount of thanks. Seriously, this is hours of worth of education to learn this stuff, then to condense it down and still state it so that, assumably, amateurs can understand it all (and then potentially take on legal liability if someone decides to do something dumb that they think we told them to do). Your best bet is to get some books, enroll in a school or both.

That (and I’m sure Laurier will chime in with regard to the probes) will answer most of your questions… and at that point, the people here will likely be willing to fill in the gaps. There is just too much fundamental theory that needs to be covered first.

#4

Well like Michael suggests I definitely should purchase and read up on some electrology books and I will if I decide to pursue this further. I was a bit worried I may buy one and then find nothing about flash diathermy in them but rather just galvanic or slow diathermy.

I don’t at all expect someone to actually train me or spend any great length of time! I’m sorry! Maybe I came across too cocky :.
Perhaps I didn’t explain that right. I just wanted to be able to ask the wacky questions that wouldn’t always be explained in a book. These are all the wacky questions I can think of presently.
I don’t want training, just some quick general answers for specific weird questions, at which point I could then learn the full picture myself through appropriate studies/sources.

I’m really just wondering what is possible with the generally available electrolysis tools today. As my question also veers into sebaceous gland diseases, I fear the electrolysis books may not explain much about this as it is quite an obscure use for it.

I know that I should not practice flash diathermy initially, and I won’t, but does anyone know of a book with a focus on that?

Specifically with the probe, ideally I wonder if there is something close to 0.1mm diameter, with 1.5mm length ideally, with only 1mm or less of non-insulation, with the ability to easily pierce skin on it’s own without bending. If there was literally no chance of having such a needle then it deflates a lot of my enthusiasm to learn as I’m not just interested in the hair side of this.

#5

Like they both said, you’re asking calculus questions, better to study algebra first and move on from there. Of course, at Laurier, our prime focus is flash thermolysis but best you do your homework first and at least gain an understanding of the galvanic and blend processes also. In the long run you do yourself a disservice to only learn one way to skin the proverbial cat.

Take a look at the specifications page of our website. That will give you a prospective of the various diameters and exposed tip lengths we provide our customers. Our “sizes” are not part numbers, they are actual measurements.

#6

What you describe is a needle we make for the European market for thread vein treatment. It is fairly close to our .003" bare needle but with an extremely sharp tip intended to pierce the skin. That sharp a tip is not a desired trait in an electrolysis probe or needle.

#7

I get the impression you may be fishing for information for a custom needle. I do make a .001" diameter tapered needle for a long time customer and I’ve made some for a university that are so fine they use them for gene fiddling about under laser and electron microscopes. Both are so delicate they can’t get packed in our sterile pouches. They have to be tray packed and sterilized on site.

If that is the case, contact me and we’ll talk.

#8

Here’s the deal … DC was originally used for hair removal (and medical uses) from 1875 onward. Thermolysis (diathermy) began being used in 1923 (hair removal and medical uses). Since then these currents have been, and are, being utilized in an amazing array of divergent and congruent ways. Insulated needles (I don’t know the actual date) have at least a 50-year history.

So to you, all of this seems "brand new,’ like something invented yesterday. It’s exciting because you don’t know about it. For us, it’s pretty much "ho-hum.’

But "warming up the follicle’ and piercing the ‘vein’ and burning the skin’ … and you want to treat other "lesions of the skin?’ These questions alone require a significant explanation. My own book on treating vascular blemishes was published in 1991 and the Youtube video (same subject) was put together in 2000. This is ancient news!

So, basically, you are DECADES behind and you seriously need to acquire the didactic materials out there that will answer your questions. At least, your own research will give you a basic understanding from which you can ask reasonable questions.

And, your questions are not "odd’ … they’re only odd to you. But don’t lose your enthusiasm … Okay? You gotta know this was "over the top’ when even Mike (Laurier) took a pass. He has the "patience of Job!’

Get Crackin’

#9

To be precise, “useable” insulated electrolysis Probes have been around for exactly 46 years :wink:

#10

Thanks for the info :). This has been a huge help! The needles were my main confusion. Laurier the specifications part of your website is very helpful, it seems strange that you’re the only manufacturer I’ve found that provides clear accurate measurements.
If you’re able to custom make a needle, that makes me feel a lot better. I’m no where near that stage yet, but I am humbled that you would offer to discuss that with me. That thread vein needle does sound pretty on the mark so far though.

I see that the amount of insulation on each needle seems to vary quite a bit between needle manufacturers and isn’t standard.

I do really need to study this from the ground up, thanks Michael. I feel better now that I know a bit more about the needles. There is a doctor in my country using diathermy for acne and it sort of boggled my mind a bit and I wanted to know more. She based it off this study http://www.igwss.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/12/selective-sebaceous-gland-electrothermolysis-_IJD.pdf

It’s really quite interesting stuff. There are a lot of oil gland and sweat gland diseases that just don’t have proper permanent treatments. And it seems so silly that even with this kind of information available there isn’t more of a push from the dermatology community to research and get this stuff out there. But I’ve noticed they’ve also abandoned electrolysis hair removal in favour of lasers. It just seems like bad science to me and it makes me want to do something about it.

1 Like
#11

" it seems strange that you’re the only manufacturer I’ve found that provides clear accurate measurements."

I find it strange that most operators ignore that. They spend $10,000 on a machine and then shop for the cheapest needles they can find to use with it :wink:

#12

Indeed, electrologists have known about this for decades: remove the sebaceous gland (as in removing the entire follicle) and the acne is gone too. In my old historical records from a school in Minnesota (Clare Smith, founder of Clareblend Inc.), this technique was documented and taught at the school. The material is from the 1920s. They were originally using DC and then added HF as well. They treated acne (and dilated capillaries) 80-years ago!

Recently I finished-up a full beard removal on a client that had moderate to severe acne as well. The beard is now gone and so is the acne … I mean 100% gone. We see this over-and-over but it’s nice to see dermatologists "inventing this revolutionary method’ too. Other conditions can benefit from follicle/sebaceous gland removal as well.

Why don’t dermatologists "do this?’ Very simple answer: they don’t want to spend the time it would take to "do this.’ It’s a lot easier to prescribe medicine and send the patient home in less than 5-minutes (the goal of most dermatologists). Over the years, electrologist/estheticians have been performing this treatment as a mainstay of their practice. Our own Josefa has hundreds of Youtube videos illustrating her technique.

It all boils down to MONEY! "Spend less time with the patient and charge more … "

#13

Are there other risks or downsides to removing the follicle and the whole gland? I’m asking out of curiosity and ignorance but considering my probably future treatment and my whole body KP and constant “shaving acne” on face I’m wondering if it does anything else to the skin/body?