Hair removal plan

Hair Removal Methods Professional Electrolysis
#1

Hello, Im posting after about 2 years, I did not bother too much with hair removal.

Male
Pale skin
Black hair (excellent candidate -or so they said)

5 Treatments with Dioden laser on my Arms (whole arms) they look better the hairs are thinner BUT they are all there (what a waste of time and money) maximum settings was used 10j (It does not go higher)

(different person and machine) 5 on chest and belly Dioden again (Pain PAin PAin) same story as the arms

7 On Back and Neck Lightsheer(i think) I had noticeable** improvement But was not happy with the “expert”, Some times she was quicker than other times and she did not always did it as supposed (SHe was moving it constantly as the laser beamed -randomly- i believe)

**For me it is only worthy as to lay good ground on future ELectrolysis

I had electrolysis 1 hour it was ok many of the hairs are gone forever (front shoulder-outer bicep) and it is more than 18 months since

What I don’t like is the 1.2$ per minute, but i Have no idea what Im getting, 1 hair per minute? 2?
aside that 70$ per hour Service must be superb (who makes so much?)

The hair removal industry is the least I like

Laser hair removal,
Too much Ads
High price
Long Term commitment
120 Different Laser devices and of course every single one is the best
And the worst of all Low-Bad Results

THe “kinda” worthy results that I had is on my back and if the cost would be charged by the performance-benefit I would rate it 20-30$ per treatment for whole Back and Neck which would be a decent amount of money for her time, 20-30 for a 25 minutes of treatment that produced mediocre results is money that i would dream to make.

Yes sure I Understand the machine is expensive etc But so are the "fat loss Devices " In spas that do absolutely nothing and we are allowed to criticise them

Ok Now that I let all the feelings out, I don’t mind if someone charges per hour of his time-work more than a Lawyer But he must be precise of what he can provide to you + he-she must let you know that if you are a guy and lets say you want clean chest that takes 15 hours or 20 hours so that you can book it and pay a reasonable price , Because if you book 20 hours for 70$ it goes 1400$ and there is high chance that he is not a professional or true expert and after all this you will receive a medium result.

After searching the forums I saw something that I was looking for a member named depilacionelectr she said she can do from 600 to 1000? hairs per hour, FInaly Someone that said what she can provide.

I apologise if it sounds like a Rant or I am a “bad customer” BUt i AM not, I was always on time and never was late I tried to cooperate in order to produce better results, broad my Own Ice packs always polite etc.

I’m Just pissed off and tired of the “Industry” as a whole, I know there are good effective honest people that charge you as supposed and provide as promised

And I"m aware that many people “experts” create bad reputation to Lasers and Electrolysis.

So my plan is the this:

I want to located real experts (electrologists) for Marathon sesion
Countries are. Germany, Spain, Greece, Istanbul(Turkey)

Learn prices and if they can perform marathon sesion

Before the marathon session I plan to use Lasers in order to have less hair to remove (groupon or something)
*I assume that if i book it for April or June it would be “wise” to use Lasers till March

And the Last laser that I will do is 6 Treatments with Lighsheer Duet on my legs whole and if someone could provide settings so before i “Waste” my money on it
I would like to have the best possible treatment and We shall see.

Can anyone guide me? Point me to a good Electrologist and give me Contact info so we can talk about Hours of Treatment and prices.

I would like to have Clear Back Neck Shoulders, Chest Belly, and Upper Arms (in that order) And of course depends on prices and time and everything I may do alos my Legs (assuming Duet would not produce the Reduction that I hope)

#2

I’m not able to give you any references.I’m not familiar enough with the german market to refer you to someone who wouldnt charge a reasonale fee.

Electrology is meticulous and demanding work and that is why electrologists charge what they do. If this wasn’t the case, the market would be flooded with people willing to provide the service at low cost competition being what it is. It isnt, because this isnt possible. IT’s not just equipment costs, though this is part of it, it’s the nature of the work. I know a few electrologists who can only work for 4-5 hours in a given day because it’s so physically demanding. That’s why it costs in the range it does.

There’s only a few people who can work marathon sessions. Jossie is probably the best known, and likely the highest skill worldwide. I know of only 3 others in the world that work this way, and they are all in north america.It’s also not every client that can take long sessions, and managing pain with medical injectables is also an additional expense.

I’m sorry, but I dont think you will find what you are seeking. the service costs what it does. It’s not going to get less expensive.

#3

Don’t do laser sessions before or none professional electrolysis will take you as a client without a long recovery time.

Also the funny part is, marathon sessions dependent strongly from the clients side which wasn’t mention yet, it can hurt and get really uncomfortable.

Electrolysis demands for your goals long-term commitment and more trust for the investment. Also traveling around the world isn’t necessary because Germany provides also Professions with decades of experience.

#4

I’m not sure if you read my whole post (i know it was long)

I understand is demanding job As i said i dont mind paying a specific amount The only thing i “want-demand” as a customer to know what I am getting, Exactly like you go to a Derm doc or PLastic surgeon or before getting a new car or service its a long term investment (except if you are rich)

I dont know if some example is unfair but pls try to see my point.

I have no idea what is the skill levels of Electrologists, what is considered a a medium-good performance?

Exm. A medium skilled person Should treat 50 hairs per 30 minutes and a Profi can get you 100 hairs per 30 minutes.

After that i can “calculate” make a plan and commitment and have realistic expectations.

I never said that i want cheap treatments or something I only said that a treatment should be based on the performance (like cars? or every other bussines ( except fortune telling)

I know that i gave a Rate for a poor laser treatment that I had but i can’t see how i’m wrong I paid for a reduction of 50-80%(As i was promised because i’m the perfect candidate ) I got 10% therefore I still believe that a 10% Reduction after 5-7 Treatments should not have been charged with 150-200$ per treatment

ANyway Im on the electrolysis side and as I said im not bashing electrolysis or Laser I just want to remove the excess hair and i want a good bussines-service that is up to its cost

I have nothing against the costs rates its a demanding job but its also a bussines-job the customer must know what he can get before he invest money and time . I know hair can be tricky and I’m not demanding a 100% accuracy. My experience till now was something like Random stuff thats why i’m pissed of.

Who is Jossie? :smiley:

#5

I believe 3+ months are enough before having Electrolysis (except if i’m wrong)

Well if someone can point me to good electrologists and he does a good job and we can make a plan I’m all ears. I made a decision and I want to go full with electrolysis and better to pay more and get the job done than wasting my time with lasers.

#6

I agree with most of what you have said; especially about the lack of standards in the field … I was a patient and I get it. Do I EVER "get it!’

I don’t agree that you are attempting to dictate treatment parameters yourself.

It’s like this … you go to have your car painted and then tell the painter how to do his job. You can try, but if he follows your "instructions’ the job will probably come out bad. Clue: electrolysis performance is not based (only) on how many hairs you can zap in one hour.

However, I absolutely agree on the therapist predicting … with 90% accuracy … how much your treatments will cost, and what EXACTLY the results will be.

Take more time and LISTEN … with both ears! You insisted on, and designed, your own laser program that didn’t go the way you want … and now you are prescribing your own electrolysis program … how successful do you think that will be?

I read in your post that you will go to electrolysis 3-months after being cleared with laser … you think that’s a good idea? It STINKS!

#7

That kind of help i need, Correct me, guide me :slight_smile:

About the Laser before ELectrolysis it was just an idea (thats why i posted actualy to be guided) How much time do you think a person should have “rest” his skin before attempting electrolysis?

I thought of it because I’ll plan to do electrolysis or In Jun or in September 2016 (if is better to leave it fine by me)

Sorry if i sounded like dictating or putting standarts,

I just want my hair gone nothing else

“However, I absolutely agree on the therapist predicting … with 90% accuracy … how much your treatments will cost, and what EXACTLY the results will be.”

only this a Plan

#8

Well, all of these concerns will eventually be answered in excruciating detail on my Youtube channel. I’m finishing up a sort-of-lecture … (won’t be doing that again. I learned nobody wants to hear my crap) … then, to the real-world issues … like: how the hell do I get this damned hair off? Seems reasonable.

In my own practice, I prefer that a patient … if they have been lasered a few times and think they got good results … to WAIT about 2-years before I do electrolysis. This is the only way I know what hair is going to grow in; or not. I’m working on a guy right now … and he waited about 18 months … seems to be going well. (He got about 30% reduction from laser = 10 passes in 2 years.)

I do have to say that I DO like your attitude of wanting a semblance of certainty. I don’t know why all hair-removal patients aren’t more assertive. Yeah, they get assertive AFTER they’ve been SCREWED! So, I say … "why wait?’

Right now, you are not asking the right questions! The question "how many hairs can you do in an hour,’ makes an assumption (that they are actually killing hairs!). The question is worthless (mostly).

When you interview an electrologist (or laser person), the FIRST question to ask is: HOW MANY men … body hair jobs … have you done, AND COMPLETED! Don’t buy the "OH, I work on men all the time.’ This is a bull shit answer. YOU WANT REAL NUMBERS …. (In most cases, you won’t get a number … just a vague answer). If you do get an answer, then ask …

  1. Did you FINISH the job … with patient satisfaction? Do you have photos? May I talk to the patient? (I do this all the time, NO problem.)
  2. Using the laser or electrologist’s OWN statistics, how many HOURS did the job take? HOURS! … That is … TOTAL TREATMENT TIME! (For me, a man’s back is: 40 – 20 – 10. That’s my average. ANY electrologist should be able to supply HER OWN real numbers! REAL NUMBERS!

Okay, if you get that far … WOW! Mostly you will NOT get that far … so, don’t start with the person and keep looking. Don’t EVER pay ahead of time and don’t waste your time and money on worthless treatments. WORTHLESS!

Don’t ever do the, "I like the person’s personality so I trust them!’ REALLY? How sweet? Don’t give me a flower … give me NUMBERS!

When I finally get around to doing this particular video … I hope it "kicks some serious ass!’ I lived in Europe and will tell you that I THINK like a German … and with my "male attitude’ it’s pretty much like YOURS! Keep it up and don’t be afraid of offending: it’s YOUR hair, YOUR body and YOUR MONEY!

Now, how’s that for a long-winded "rant?’

#9

IDC: My case is quite similar to yours. I really sympathize with your situation, it is frustrating to have spent the time and money and the waiting only to see little if any results from laser. I will be following this thread with interest.

There’s also the question of whether laser clearing is wise as a general advice before electrolysis. I’ve seen some examples of excellent laser results on this site, yet those doesn’t match my experience. I also know that electrolysis will be time consuming and expensive with the work I want done so if laser worked I think I ideally “should” have done more of it first. I guess some body areas might be better for laser than others… maybe?

Michael: Your 2 year waiting advice seems to really kill the laser+electrolysis plan for many if not most people. Do you have any thoughts about the amount of work for the electrologist by not trying laser first or are you glad to start fresh with a really hairy and quite challenging case? Would laser vs laser+electrolysis make a difference in the case of thinning vs complete removal? Not looking for personal advice here (I might post my own thread later), just some thoughts about the conundrum…

#10

IDC it’s possible I was a little abrupt with you, honestly I did try not to be, but I will admit being a little bit intimidated by your approach. That said it’s the correct approach, being result- oriented, but the method of evaluating that result is the part the the average consumer does not have the knowledge to properly evaluate.So I’ve held back and let the guy who’s been practising for 40 + years answer your question. I dont feel I could have adequately answered your question having done a lot less work and client consultations.

Michael is correct on a number of points, but I think the most important is the point on concentrating on TOTAL TREATMENT TIME.I’ll come back to this part.

This said however, how can you know this? How can the electrologist? While Michael can draw on 40 years experience in making these assertions on body work, not every electrologist can. Many clients never finish their hair removal, and this is not in any way the failing of the electrologist, but a failing in the patient to make that plan, and THEN FOLLOW IT. If I had a nickel for every time a client started something and didnt follow through , I might be very wealthy! While certainly this could be a failing of the electrologist, often it isnt, and could be finances of the client, their own depression ( happens a lot with my trans clients) or even inability to follow up because of something like childcare issues. The failing of the client to follow the developed and well thought through plan is NOT a failing of the electrologist.

I want to pick up on something Michael said, and that is that the number of hairs removed per time, is not an accurate measure of treatment effectiveness. For example, recently I have heard the numbers given to me by a number of electrolysis patients that thermolysis has only a 10-15 % effective kill rate , but that of blend is 80%. You yourself stated that depilacionelectr ( her name is Josepha, or Jossie and that is who I was referring to above) can do 600-1000 hairs per hour. The reality is, there is no one can tell you exactly what their kill rate is. 600 hairs per hour is a REALLY good rate for thermolysis, but you could not accomplish this many with normal 8-15 second per hair blend. That Does NOT mean that one or the other is more effective however. If 10 % of 600 hairs are dead, that would mean 60 hairs are effectively killed with thermolysis. But even a newbie electrologist can treat 100-120 hairs with blend in an hour, and with an 80% kill rate( turns out these numbers are from Tsroadmap, a site operated by the same person, Andrea, who runs this site, naughty girl Andrea!) , that would be 80-90 hairs are killed in the same time frame. This is where the TTT or total treatment time comes in, one , is not necessarily better than the other just because it removes more hairs in less time, it comes down to how many of those hairs are actually dead. Knowing your total treatment time for a given area is what you want. I dont feel that a large percentage of electrologists can tell you this unless they have the experience level that one of the senior electrologists such as Michael has given you.

If the electrologist cannot tell you this, then for sure the patient cannot be an accurate judge of total treatment time. Additionally, looking for assurances or guarantees of Total treatment time is not reasonable, if as a client you do not follow the treatment plan.

A few words on laser before electrology . I’m going to say, I would not do it. This is based upon experience. Michael has said he would wait 2 years after laser. He didnt take into account the average of 2 years with proper spacing of laser sessions that it would take to accomplish the laser treatment. So doing laser could be a 4 year commitment in time, for something that will not clear the area, before ever even starting electrolysis. Electrolysis alone with the right number of properly timed hours can accomplish a complete and thorough removal, in a year to year and a half. That is, the client has followed the plan developed between them, and the elctrologist. So laser is NOT faster, and I am not convinced it gives you any economy either. I will say that I did laser before I did electrolysis on my face, and I still get regrowth from laser 3 years later.

Whether or not the electrologist can accurately predict their total treatment time, I don’t feel is a good evaluation of their treatment or technique. A better measure, is how well the hairs come out. If they slide out with zero resistance, this is a better evaluation of their kill rate. That’s just my opinion, most electrologists don’t have enough confidence in their work. My best advice to you, is concentrate of following whatever plan you develop, and pay attention to the process. IF the electrologist is tugging on every hair, move on. It’s easier to evaluate this and more effective, that trying to get them to guess as to what their kill rate is.From the client point of view, this is the most accurate measure you can make.

Edit: Michael, it amazes me that the number of hours required to completely finish an entire back, is the same or a little less than that required to finish a face, which is half the area!

Seana

#11

Seana: the smartest electrologist on this board. Perfectly stated … well done.

I’m finished up with a trans-woman and it came in at 81 hours … maybe some pick-up in a few months. I’m gonna start filming all this stuff …

Big problem is getting my AUDIO to work. I just spent $500 and none of the stuff is working right. I don’t do well with “frustration.”

I have a bunch of new photos, but honestly … it’s too big a hassle to post them here on Hairtell. Talk about “jumping thru the hoops!” Anywhoooo … saving 'em for videos.

#12

Still “ringing in my ears!”

Years ago when Dr. Perkins bought his first laser (diode), I attended the “Doctor’s class” with none other than Dr. Gold himself (inventor of laser hair removal … a derm in S. Calif.)

He stated, “Look doctors, if you want to be in business in 5-years, never use the word PERMANENT with your laser clients. Somehow those hairs always seem to grow back.”

I don’t want to start a pissing contest here … and YES!!! I know people get good results … YES YES YES, already! … I’m just QUOTING what I heard with my own ears! And, if you don’t like it, you can stick it up your BENGHAZI!

#13

First of all, I wish you a happy new year everyone.

Second, That was really good Post Michael I learned much

"Right now, you are not asking the right questions! The question “how many hairs can you do in an hour,’ makes an assumption (that they are actually killing hairs!).”

HA exaclty my assumption, Well spotted

“(In most cases, you won’t get a number … just a vague answer)” saddly this is true

2 Last questions (hopefully)

  1. Assuming I will go to 2-3 Electrologists in my area and interview them, How do I “Beta-Test” them?

Should I try some spot treatments lets say upper chest make a photo and to see exactly how it goes before attempting full commitment?

  1. should I contact Josie? (not sure how, is there a website?) I’ve read in the forums and people talk highly of her skill. She does Marathon sessions and she is in Spain

I would not mind to visit Spain for few days and get a Marathon session

#14

It’s ok i dont take it personaly, I “See-know” how it sounded thats why I repeated stuff like “im not bashing anything etc.”

about the method of evaluation , I agree we the consumers just don’t know how it goes and I understand some people that don’t want to know they want to know how much it costs and what must they do.

but the thing is (in my case)we get something like Random stuff "just pulling-Laser out hair dont mind us " , and of course if you request higher settings (Laser), after you had 2 treatments and no results 0% to be specific, you get the “we know what we are doing, dont worry”

Nevermind, At the moment I want to locate a person that could provide a good service and a good plan. And hopefully get rid of the hair

#15

It’s difficult after having heard all the mis-marketing and horror stories of laser to not be down on the industry as a whole. I understand this. When it comes to electrology however I have found that the professionals truly do have your best interest at heart the majority of the time. It’s a different market because the technology does provide proven results that work in all cases. I too often hear of ex laser patients, who now have a hard time building that trust relationship with their electrologist because they see them as part of the same industry.

You Dont need marathon sessions, and it’s better especially from a pain management side that you dont. There are a couple german electrologists that post here, I dont know if any of them could help you. But dont let the false front of laser, be your guide to doing electrolysis. They are different industries.

Seana

#16

Yes, you are “on” to it … Beta Test! It’s going to take you 6-months, but that’s better than spending a fortune and finding the treatments didn’t work?

Pay to have a 1-hour treatment. Remove one spot CLEAR (say the shoulder … NOT in the center of your chest!)

Wait 3-months. Although half the hair should be gone, it won’t look very good to you. Have the spot cleared again and wait another 3-months. At this point you should have a gigantic difference; maybe only 10% of the hair remaining.

During the post-electrolysis time, you should get very very few “ingrown hairs” … maybe only one or two. If you get a ton on ingrown hairs … RUN!

That’s it … you have paid for 2 hours and have your answer.

#17

Guys thank you very much for all the info I’m almost “case closed”

Summary. I want to get rid of hair using Electrolysis
In Order

Back
Neck
Shoulders
Chest
Belly

One Final note on A marathon session, I like the idea of Marathon session because you Deticating some days lets say 3-5 and you come back again “next” time that would be 3 months later or more.

I preffer this to a weekly session (not that I dislike the weekly sessions it has its own benefits)

Assuming that I get in contact with Josie and I can get a marathon session (+plus the benefit that you can;t get better hands than hers)
what is the Pros and the Cons on this aproach?

Lightsheer Duet. As a told before I would like to try Laser on my legs but with the best possible settings where can I get infos about that and demand the same settings

But why? Well if I get in worse case same “benefits” as my arms(Some reduction, thinner hairs) it would be ok, i’m a guy after all

  1. Ive heard that leg hair is easier to get rid of (no idea if its true) + think-believe I would get better results on because some parts of my Quads are almost hair free only from friction of my pants-jeans (I also wonder if there is a theory, because 80% of guys that I know all got hairs gone from the friction of the thick socks that they got wearing them in the army. body part:
    Up to Extensor digitorum longus m.

It will cost me 600 euros Six Treatments if i book them as a package of Six(its an “offer” but not groupon)

where do i get optimal Settings or should I make a new post in the Laser thread?

And Michael Thank you again very much for your Help I believe that you could do a booklet and sell it or somehow you could sell your info. (thnx that you doing it for free :smiley: )

90% or more of all people(that i know ) want to remove some hair from their body but they won’t do it because they don’t have the comfort to " I go in, get the treatments get out, done"