I will. Thank you. It’s funny, except the follicles around the areola, the others was treated in telogen, and everything seems to be in place.
Ekade, I believe that certain data are wrong on that table. For example, the pubic area has a telogen that lasts a year, according to my table contrasted with my own observations.
I must say that I believe the ranges for hair growth charts vary so much that I refuse to use them! Health, time of life, hormonal cycles, and much more can make big differences in hair growth cycles.
Are telogen hairs thinner than anagen hairs as well beside the lighter color?
I also have a question for this thread:
I have finally completed the initial clearance on my area – even though some of this has been treated and retreated as we gradually expanded the target zone. From now on, I’ll go in every couple of weeks just to treat new growth.
Is it safe to assume that any new growth we catch will be anagen – since, by definition, they’ll be actively growing? (And therefore a pretty good chance that most of those hairs will be permanently removed?)
Are telogen hairs thinner than anagen hairs as well beside the lighter color? [/quote]
Yes Ekade, the last segment of the hair shaft is amelanotic and amedular, ie, lacks pigment and marrow, therefore, is clearer and has less caliber.
Yes, even if the interval is 4 weeks.
In red: Treatment in anagen is not necessarily a guarantee of success.
Are telogen hairs thinner than anagen hairs as well beside the lighter color? [/quote]
Yes Ekade, the last segment of the hair shaft is amelanotic and amedular, ie, lacks pigment and marrow, therefore, is clearer and has less caliber.
[/quote]
I am going to disagree with Josefa on this one. I have seen “pods” of hair (multiple hairs growing in a very small area, but not from the same follicle) that have various diameters of hair, but in my experience the telogen hairs are not smaller in diameter than they had been before they transitioned. In my opinion, the loss of color does not result in loss of diameter.
According to a research physicist who worked for Gillette there is a varied rate of growth of hairs of different diameters. The equation for facial hair is as follows:
diameter of hair X 3= rate of growth per day
example: 1) .005 X 3 = .015" per day
2) .003 X 3 = .009" per day
So a finer facial hair grows that much slower than a coarser hair.
I can see how we might come to believe that the telogen hairs we see with other hairs in the “pod” have become smaller in diameter, but what I believe is that the slower growing hairs have a shorter life span, therefore their cycle is shorter.
I’m not saying I am correct, nor am I saying that Josefa is wrong. I’m just saying that people ask questions and should try to balance the replies with what makes sense for them. All of the answers here are not going to be in total agreement.
I have not said multiple hairs grow from the same follicle. I just wanted to show the difference between telogen and anagen hairs. If you have read my comments before, I have said several times that we must treat different hairs individually of each follicular unit.
As for the lack of hair medulla in the last segment, this is not my opinion, this is a scientifically proven fact. (Embryology and anatomy of the hair follicle by W. Montagna and F. Camacho.)
It’s as simple as picking up a telogen hair and observe it under a microscope. The medulla occupies a physical space. The absence of this element will affect the hair diameter.
Josefa, in your picture one of the anagen hair is the same depth under the skin as telogen hair. And above the skin it looks thinner than another anagen hair.
So, I believe that one of the main key for electrologist to gauge the depth of the hair under the skin – to compare it is diameter with other hairs?
Phil at the paint store:
I’m doing a full remodel with a tropical/Asian theme to my house (I’m 300m from the beach): the colors have to be just right. Problem is, when confronted with a color chart at the paint store, I have an impossible task; I’m just confused.
But then there’s Phil. He’s been in the business for decades. I explain the color I want to achieve, and he always gets it right. For example, I wanted a sort of “peach” for the living room. I tried “peach” colors myself (actually eleven different times, I painted out an entire wall), and they all looked like a beauty parlor. Phil took a “beige” (horrible color) and dropped in a little of this and that and created the perfect color. Exactly what I wanted. To me, the guy is a genius. I will never pick out a color by myself again.
(Phil asked me about: light exposure, size of the room, color of the floor, lighting, type of furniture … and a bunch of other details … I didn’t ask him to explain himself, because it’s just his expertise.)
The point it, I can’t get colors right. And, for those who are not pro electrologists, trying to have “us” quantify the minutia of our profession is not going to work for you. Do you really want to “measure” hairs?
Furthermore, all drawings are only symbolic representations of reality. I learned this fact when I started doing hair transplants. None of the drawings actually look like a real hair follicle! Even a photo is not quite right. Nothing can take the place of looking at, and fiddling with, a strip of skin with living hair follicles. (When I saw this, I felt like throwing away every drawing I’d ever done.)
Indeed, those of us with years of experience, like Phil at the paint store, have developed a “sixth sense.” All professionals in every field develop this “sense” and it’s pretty hard to describe exactly what we are looking for. It’s like learning a language: at first you study the grammar, but finally you don’t need to think about grammar at all because it becomes natural. It just sounds “right.”
Stuff we just know: We know how a hair should feel when it’s epilated (in all stages of growth). In a field of hairs, we can pick out all the growth stages (without epilating the hair). We can see when the skin has had “enough treatment” for the day. We know when (oh dear GOD!) a scab is the right size (as opposed to those who have never done electrolysis). We can easily pick out the correct size needle (and can actually see a difference in 1/1000 of an inch). We know when you are nearing the end of the treatment cycle and will have permanent results. We can see if you have accelerating hairs (called “shooters”), as opposed to a field of vellus hairs that will never get larger. We can predict the time element of new growth and tell you when to come back. We even know when you probably have a hormone imbalance: and that’s why some of us will push you to go beyond seeing your regular physician.
It’s not magic; it’s just experience. And that, folks, is why you go to a professional.
Brilliant post, I think!
Probably it should be stuck to DIY electrologist forum?
Corollary to my missive:
Recent “internet junkie” patients often attempt micro-managing their electrolysis treatments. I give all patients an accurate estimate (time and money), and guarantee the results. Their “interference” with the treatment might seem like a good idea; but it’s not. You can’t “outsmart” the treatment; it is going to progress exactly as I have indicated. Sorry, that’s just the way it is!
The surgeon I work with is an example. Patients will see him and insist on getting something done specifically to their face. He will (sometimes) comply; but these patients are never fully satisfied.
My patients will go to see the surgeon and I always tell them not to micro-manage the surgery. Point out your areas of concern and let the surgeon/artist take over. Indeed, the doctor is seeing other elements of your face that you might not be always of. “Go” with what the doctor recommends!
I could give you endless examples, but they all come down to the unsatisfied patient that did not allow the doctor to do what he recommended. Okay, one example. A 6’4” 24-year-old Persian fellow saw the doctor because of his “big nose.” Any other surgeon might have given him a tiny turned-up nose, but not Dr. “C.” He explained that being a big Persian guy, a tiny nose will look wrong. Instead, the problem was an underdeveloped chin. A chin implant (actually his own bone) balanced the face and the guy looks amazing: just right and “beautiful.” The nose was already perfect, and nobody will even see that this kid had plastic surgery.
(ekade, I did not mean to be “cheeky.” Please ask whatever you wish … that’s why we are here (?).
Oh Josefa! I “think” you have misunderstood me! I was never saying that you said that multiple hairs grow from the same follicle. I was simply clarifying for the consumer that multiple hairs don’t grow from the same follicle.
I am also NOT saying that the hair’s color does not fade (or stop being produced) in the hair root shaft when it becomes telogen. I am saying that a hair shaft does not change diameter when it becomes telogen. A coarse hair is a coarse hair. AND that it is simply my opinion.
It would be interesting to know about the medulla “size” as some of the coarsest hairs I’ve ever seen are “white” (or clear). They never did have color!
Oh, I absolutely did not think that you were “cheeky!” I really do think that some of wise posts should be stuck in DYI forum!
There are so many nuances of hairs and only experienced person know them.
Actually, I think this discussion is enlightening for clients in the sense that it shows that individual technique varies and is based on one’s own experience.
I have people pm me now and again wanting to know what they can expect from X hours of treatment or X months of treatment. My answer is always the same, “ask the electrologist who will be doing your work what they expect!”.
Some clients don’t want to “finish” a job. They just want to have X hours treatment and want to know what is achievable in that amount of time. THAT is something that I think is very variable from my experience.
Barbara, as I can I send a private message. Maybe we can clear up this misunderstanding. I think this is important.
Certainly Josefa, I would be happy to PM about this.
Barbara, I did not have the time to scan and send you the page with the information.
I have no microscope, but a few years ago I had the opportunity to see hairs in different stages when I carried out my study.
Thanks to the accuracy of the scanning electron microscope we were able to see a reduction in the diameter of hair when the stem is close to the root. I thought who in Hairtell could have a microscope and I remembered that Mike Roy uses one to make the probes. I hesitated to bother Mike with this issue, because I know he is a very busy person. However, I finally dared to ask for his cooperation.
Mike agreed, and he can tell his conclusions. (Mike claims to have found a reduction in the diameter of 30% in almost all the hairs that he has observed)
This issue may seem trivial to some, but as Ekade said, it looks like hair guide is essential because it allows the electrologist to release the current in the proper depth, especially if we are using only thermolysis.