Electrolysis and anagen hairs

Hair Removal Methods Professional Electrolysis
1

Often in this forum I find recommendations that removed can be just hairs in anagen phase of growth.

For example statement from LAgirl: “I think it’s hard to judge things the way you’ve been tackling the situation as you’re likely lettings hairs slip into the wrong phase of growth etc.” (dont want to make any attack, just wanted to give some example…)

I personally dont like statements like this, because they sound like a back door if something “unexpected” happens and the therapist needs to talk himself out… (like laser practitioners by which you have to sign a form that it can happen you may not have any results at all! which is not that rare).

I want to hear some experts what they think of all this “thing”.

And another statement that makes me crazy: “Have you been cleared from PCOS? If you have an underlying medical condition causing the growth, it will continue to make your body produce new hair.”

I personally dont know what is this PCOS (some sort of hormonal disorder), but if the treatment is effective and the folicles are destroyed for good there has to be visible reduction after 9-12 months of treatment allso if the body is producing new hairgrowth.

The logic in this is that (for example) you have in some small area 100 visible dark hair (most hair that are terminal are allso visible if they havent been touched for half year or more, some are under the skin - but much less than 50%, because than it would be impossible to have after one clearance more than 50% permanent removed hair - look at Josefa and Michael Bono pictures and statements), together you have not more than 150 hairs.
After the first clearance with more than 50% kill rate you will have 75 or less hairs left.

In 3 months would be the next clearance - will someone say, that it would be often possible for people with hormonal disorder to get new 75 hairs activated and because of this see no results allso after years of treatment? I highly doubt, that their hairgrowth would stay exactly the same after years of effective treatments - if this person begun with 150 hairs and every 3 months is activating 75 new dark hair, without treatment in a few years she/he would be more hairy than a gorilla. But I would bet my pants that after stopping this very “effective” treatments the haircount will not change, maybe just get a little bit worse :wink:

For me all this is just a way how some practitioners try to speak them out of their disability not to provide real results!

Experts opinions are welcome :slight_smile:

2

I can’t wait to hear the responses on this post, because some of this information has made me wonder as well. Actually, it in fact confuses me.

It seems as though the majority believes that electrolysis is only effective in killing hair in the anagen phase.

Although, I remember Michael debating recently that this isn’t accurate and that hairs can be tackled in any phase.

If the first were to be true, imagine how little amount of hair is being effectively killed in a treatment with an average to below average electrologist. I believe the visible hair is only 1/3 of the actual amount of hair you have at any given time or somewhere along those lines. Either way, it’s a small percentage, divided into an even smaller percentage if only the anagen hairs can be killed, and divide that into an even smaller percentage if your electrologist moderately sucks (it is damn hard to find someone good!).

All-in-all, I can understand why electrolysis takes a long time and why so many people become frustrated if they only have sub par electrologists available to them. I really hope that Michael’s statement is true in that all hair in any phase can be killed, because those numbers would appear more encouraging and hopeful. Or it might put more people in a raging fit if they aren’t seeing results after so many months (I’m sure I will be one of those psychos! Haha, just kidding…)

As far as hormones, I can see them hindering the process, but I highly doubt it should hinder it enough to where a person isn’t seeing any success over time. As long as they are maintaining a routine schedule and their electrologist is good, it would seem like they should be able to push the boulder over the edge. Then again, I’m far from an expert on this topic and I could be wrong. Like you said, I highly doubt a person is producing 75 new hairs after each clearance, unless electrolysis is stimulating hair growth. Which I swear to the heavens had better not be the case! I’m already pissed off at that stupid laser wand! Ok I’m getting a bit over edge here. Sigh My nephew graduates in a week and I have more facial hair than him. Something is wrong with this picture. Why the heck are more women growing beards!? Is this some sadistic way of trying to control the population? I sure as heck know I’m not going to be going on any dates soon, haha.

3

If the first were to be true, imagine how little amount of hair is being effectively killed in a treatment with an average to below average electrologist.

I’m afraid “the first” is the case with most electrologists.

A third of your hair is present and about 20-30% of that actually gets killed in a session.

4

If you believe that just 1/3 of all hairs are visible, than you allso believe that Michale Bono and Josefa dont say the truth - how could it be than possible after every clearance to get 50% or more reduction of all hairs?

If 80% is visible and 20% are under the skin, and you will treat all 80%, you need more than 62,5% kill rate to get this result. If 70% is visible, than the kill rate needs to be 71,4% or more. And with 60% visible hair, the kill rate needs to be 83,3% and more to archieve 50% overall reduction.

So the visible hair is allways more than 50%!

And I dont think electrolysis is stimulating any hair growth - just laser. For example some lasers are used on the head hair to stop hair loss and stimulate new hair :wink:

I look forward to hear some experts.

5

A third of hair are anagen.

If a third of our hair would be present, and from this hair 1/3 would be anagen, with most of the electrologists you could treat just 1/9 of all hair you have.

And if the kill rate of the electrologist is 1/3, after every clearance you just would have killed 1/27 hair, what is 3,7%. If the hair cyrcles every 3 months, how many months you would need to get treated to get hairfree??!

I ask once again, how it could be than possible to get a 50% reduction after one clearance???

It could be possible if 60% or more hair was present and the killrate would be 83,3 % including anagen, telogen and catagen hair!!!

6

Well, James mentioned that 9 months are needed at least to see each hair once. This implied to me that about a third are present during normal conditions.

But electrologists like Jossie and Michael like to treat hair that has been untouched for as long as possible. This might imply that the longer since last shaving, etc. the more hair present? That could explain a 50% kill rate of all hairs (by an exceptional electrologist).

7

Miro, from what I know of Josefa’s work is that she can only approach this 50% reduction of hairs in an area if the area has a ‘full growth’ i.e. the hairs have been untouched for a long time, not even shaved. If you wax or do any other root removal, the hairs present to be treated will be in anagen. If you shave, only the anagen hairs will grow. But even Josefa says, in this case, that you need 3 clearances to get through all the hair cycles. Since you are destroying telogen hairs too, there will be less follicles to treat in each latter cycle. If you are only destroying anagen hairs, but removing telogen hairs (effectively “resetting” these follicles) you will get them later when they are in anagen.

Another thing about Josefa (and I believe Michael says the same thing) is that telogen hairs can be effectively treated. I believe I have read Josefa to say that she likes to treat telogen hairs. Many electrologists believe only anagen hairs can be effectively killed, or prefer to do their work in this way. In that case, they may ask the client to shave or wax so that they can work on anagen hairs. Or they only expect the anagen hairs to be killed and the telogen ones to come back later on and will get them that time, when they are in anagen. Perhaps they even notice this about there own work; it is true from their own observation that they cannot effectively kill telogen hairs.

PCOS clients having good electrolysis will see a difference, even though they may need touch ups every year for follicles that are later stimulated to start producing hairs. One important point to note in all this is that all active hair producing follicles are in different stages, so at any time, you will only be seeing a fraction of these hair producing follicles in action. BUT there are also a huge number of dormant follicles that have not started producing hairs and may never do. It is these follicles that hormonal imbalances such as PCOS begin to stimulate.

Also, in my experience, from their own admissions, an electrologist does not always have a ‘one hit’ kill rate and instead they need to treat an individual follicles more than once over 12-18 months, by weakening it the first time and killing it the next, or the next. Especially true for thick, deeply rooted hairs such in a PCOS case.

In my experience, all electrologists are different and approach the work differently. In some cases i.e. Michael and Josefa, here you see two electrologists with completely different set-ups but doing the work in the same way with the same results.

8

I can imagine Miro would be a little disappointed and let down so far by his hair removal efforts, hence his post which comes across as both skeptical and angry and I can’t say I’m surprised. He’s obviously parted company with a very valuable and irreplaceable commodity, that being time and obviously money.
The first thing I noticed was that so far his experience with pro thermolysis has been spread over 4 different areas and only 14 hours, I would personally discourage this approach and suggest prioritising and focusing on one area at a time. The next thing is his age. based on my personal experience with the way hair developed on my own body as I got older I’d say he is fighting somewhat of an uphill battle. That’s not saying that there’s going to be no end to it but new hair and even new problem areas may well develop as he gets older, that was certainly my experience. Here in lies one of the hurdles that are difficult to get across to someone contemplating or starting out on the hair removal journey.
The process of shedding and growing new hairs is happening all the time and it happens without a person realising the extent of this process. We might have an occasional hair in our mouths or notice some hair in the bath or sink drain but this is only a small proportion of the hairs that we lose daily. I’m not going to put a figure on this because everyone is different and different areas lose hair at different rates and at the end of the day does anyone Truly know. Head hair I believe is one of the slowest to shed, hence it’s long length and yet still you hear people suggesting that in the course of a normal day anywhere between 75 and 150 hairs can be shed and new hairs are formed to take their place. Such figures are difficult to state with total accuracy, I’m not sure anyone has ever actually counted them accurately, how difficult would that be… In a case like Miros not only would the existing visible hair growth need to be dealt with and the hair that’s below the surface waiting to pop through but also the new hair that might be developing as treatment progressed. This is why the first few months and sometimes longer is the difficult time when it seems no progress is being made, although with a competent electrologist this will not be the case. It highlights the need for regular appointments to be booked and kept. This does sound convenient for the electrologist as a means of regular income but it is actually a factor in successful and time economical treatment which obviously translates into pounds/dollars or euros spent by the client upon completion. Anagen hairs are easier to treat I believe as their structure is more conducive to the process of thermolysis/electrolysis. If a person is well hydrated there should be adequate moisture in the follicle for destruction of the papilla and the germinative cells to take place. When the transient part of the follicle has withdrawn as is the case in the catagen and telogen stage less moisture is present and total destruction of the appropriate parts of the follicle is more difficult but not impossible if an appropriate amount of energy is used and the insertion is at the correct depth. This is what I have read along the way in my studies so far and it does make sense when looked at with a critical but common sense approach in mind.
I would be more than disappointed if in 4 months of regular appointments no visible progress had not been made let alone 9 to 12 months but there are factors here to consider as well and these aren’t always counted or considered when things like that are stated. More visible success should be expected in a shorter time if more hours are spent within this time period actually getting good treatment, forget the months that have passed and consider the time spent inside of these months as the important factor.
Something else to think about. There are no doubt some frustrated electrologists out there as well as frustrated people requiring effective permanent hair removal. If “people” are bouncing around between electrologists trying to find a good one they might well be passing by a potentially good one by not allowing sufficient time to make proper judgement. It’s a difficult call from either stand point for a host of reasons. One visit to an electrologist might be enough in certain instance to pass judgement when perhaps considering such obvious things as: Is their work area hygienic and clean; do they wear gloves and use new needles. However judging a treatment as good or successful in a visit or two might be a little naive in some instances.
I’m only just starting out with electrolysis as my chosen career so my path is going to be difficult. I’ll have no satisfied customers who can big me up and confirm my status as a Good electrologist but I enjoy a challenge and am looking forward with relish to this next one. Watch this space :slight_smile:
For anyone who might be interested here in the UK and ideally local to me I will be looking for clients in the very near future. In my early days of working I will be working for free to get my hours and my experience up and anyone starting with me now will benefit from this, possibly to conclusion of their treatment because I have in mind to offer very reduced rates for early takers who stick with me and are serious about getting the job done.
Even the best of practitioners had to have a beginning to their careers and I wont be happy being just mediocre or average in my efforts. Feel free to get in touch if you are interested. Feel free to comment :slight_smile:

9

wow 5 posts have appeared since I started doing mine, you guys are fast :slight_smile:

10

follizap - where are you based? You can pm me if you like :slight_smile:

11

Thanks for the answer - youre right, I spend a lot of time and money to get laser done with allmost no results - did go to University and had to work for 3euro/hour to get 1 laser treatment for 200-400euro. And the work wasnt pleasing, but if I wanted to deal with the hair, I had no other option.

If I had just chest,abdomen and butt hair, I would asily reconcile with that. But with laser I stimulated bad shoulder, upper arm and what was the worst thing my whole neck was/is cowered with coarse and dense hair what makes me depressed and many times I cannot believe how much…

But that is another story, 2 months ago I started electrologist treatments with the best electrologist in Germany - you say 14 hours is not enough to clear all this areas? She did it in 10hours - approx. 12 000 hairs removed! Another 4 hours I had with another electrologist. My neck and shoulders are already the 6th week clean, just on upper arms we need to clear the thinner hairs comming from laser.

So until now Im happy with her! Will see what will come, I wrote with one of her clients who is allso on this forum and 3 months after 1 clearance he had still 65%reduction!

She allso guarantees 2/3 hair treated will not return back. She allso wants to work on untouched hair - allso telogen are no problem!

Wanted to ask you, have you allso been treated with electrolysis?

And I allmost forgot - I wish you the best with learning electrolysis - please learn this craft the best you can, because just than you can help many desperate people - and dont take the advantage of their desperate situation.

12

I agree allmost with all you said.

" Perhaps they even notice this about there own work; it is true from their own observation that they cannot effectively kill telogen hairs."

What do you think about this? I would say, that this electrologists have much to learn and are just at the beginning of their road to be at least an average electrologist and allso should adjust their pricing to this fact.

And I dont think that hair could be killed by many times weakening - weakened hair will regenerate with time…If the insertions are precise and the energy is hi enough, the follicle should be burned down.

For example hair transplants - the hair in the donor area will not regrow, because it was cutt out propertly - if you do the same damage with electrolysis, the hair will not grow anymore, but you need to have exact insertions. That shouldn be impossible - if you look at the hair transplant doctors - their extractions have to be extreme exact - they need to cut exactly the hair out with just a 0,6-0,8mm needle opening. And they have more than 90% hair propertly removed and inserted in another place without allmost any regrowh (5 to maximum 10%) in the donor area :wink:

But if their work isnt precise enough and they just cut the hair shaft under the skin in two pieces, the hair in the donor area will regrow - that is the same with poor insertions of electrologists! The hair will not die if you would cut the shaft under the skin it once again in 3 months and allso it should not be weakened.

Maybe Michael could tell us something more about the things common in hair transplants (donor area) and hair removal with electrolysis.

13

It would seem I read your post incorrectly Miro, I thought from your post that you were unhappy with your treatment but it sounds like you’ve been getting some excellent treatment. Based on what you’ve had so far I don’t think you’ll be disappointed in the long term.
I have had electrolysis myself, no idea how many hours exactly but I have no beard left apart from a few tiny stragglers which will be treated some time soon. I did treat myself using a Sterex machine to clear my chest and I’ve been a baldy ever since. I also have some shiny areas on my inner lower legs where I’ve been practising with my Apilus which is miles apart from the Sterex which I’m happy about because it was pretty well 9 times the price.
Before I forget, I’m in Chessington.

14

When Michael talks, we have to listen carefully.
His claims are based on experience and a profound knowledge he has of the subject.

80% of the hairs of this arm was treated in telogen and anagen to 20%. If Electrolysis was effective only in anagen phase, regrowth would have been more than 80%. However, several months later, the time required for the second clearance was 25%. Michael is correct, we can kill the hair at any stage. It is also correct when he says that only 3 clearances is needed to finish, and when he says that Electrolysis is predictable. Michael is always right.

Before first clearance (November 2010)

[img:center]https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-c1Wtx1Vn5DY/TbKcePZYstI/AAAAAAAAAmo/LCGD3F2SFx8/s720/DSC02197.JPG[/img]

Before second clearance (April 2011)

[img:center]https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-0DxTllTHnKI/TbLf6sTj6lI/AAAAAAAAAm4/C2D18G7m-cQ/s720/DSC03623.JPG[/img]

June 2011
[img:center]https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-KyhQzxaATYk/TfqPsQeI78I/AAAAAAAAAwE/yCX7CaS548w/s720/DSC04717.JPG[/img]

15

Wow! Just . . . WOW! Great work, Josefa.

16

And I would add: Josefa is allways right :slight_smile:

Here we can see the verification that most of the hairs are present and visible - not like many people thing just 30%!

17

Truly beautiful work performed by a highly competent electrologist. Jossie, so others know, how long did the first clearance take per arm? What method were you using? How swollen was the arm afterwards? How long did the swelling last? Was anesthetic used?

The first clearance is always the hardest, but well worth the time invested and the money spent. As all can see, future treatments are shorter because there is less hair.

Glad you are back Jossie.

18

Thank you Dee.

My client has to do more than 500 Kms to come. He has had 5 days of treatment in total from the beginning, about 32 hours. But in these 32 hours included the second clearance in some areas. This photo shows the appearance of the area with 6 hours of the first clearance. Two or three weeks later (I can not remember)

A few months later we took about 90 minutes to re-clean the area. The system used was Multiplex.
Yes, there was a topical anesthetic (Emla mostly). We estimated a total of 40 hours to fully complete the two arms and end of treatment.
Yes, there was swelling, redness, scabs and a couple of ingrown hairs. Since I worked mostly in telogen hairs, some hairs were in early anagen (anagen II, III and IV). Inserts surface is difficult to kill these hairs the first time. My client and I estimate they were about 50 hairs a total of 6000 that were treated. I think it is worth working at this stage because the client verifies the amazing results from the first clearance.

My client has asked Laurier needle to work on his hands. This was last Thursday. I will update the case in July.

19

Josefa, may I ask what 500 Kms means?

For my female cases, it usually takes about 20 hours in total, give or take, depending on the amount of hair, to send them off into the great beyond - hairfree and happy.

20

Kilometers Dee, about 310 miles.