Do probe type and/or machine type matter??

Hair Removal Methods Professional Electrolysis
#1

Hello Everyone,

From reading all the various posts (e.g. on the Laurier IBP) and having spoken to 8 licensed professionals, I have got varied responses, and so thought that I would post the questions…

  1. Does the probe type matter? - In my quest to find a licensed professional that uses the Laurier IBP in MA, I have spoken with 8 different folks with decades of experience. The unanimous view seems to be that the probe type does not matter and that it is only the energy levels that do.

  2. Does the machine type matter? - Here too most of the licensed professionals say that it is the energy levels that are important, though some who have the Apilus Platinum Pure say that it provides a more comfortable experience. One lady with 34+ years experience says that she gets better kill results with her old Spectrum versus her Apilus Senior II. (I personally appreciate the Pure’s ability to deliver energy over 4 pulses which is better tolerated by my skin.)

Or can a skilled electrologist provide the same results with just about any probe and/or machine?

While I think that technique and skill at killing the hair and hair cells are the most important factor, I feel that the machine and probe types are important too for the client’s over-all experience as far as skin irritation, pain tolerance etc. For example, all cars will transport from point A to B, but the ride may be more comfortable or more safer due to specific features.

This is my perspective based on my limited experience, and I was wondering what others perspectives from their experience have been?

Thank you.

Anamika.

#2

Any one which is good and reliable will give you results, true results rely only on the partitioner.
Machine and probe can add more comfort and speed (apilus platinum for example and the laurier probe) to the treatment.(again if the electrologist is doing proper use).

#3

You have already answered your own question.

It is like cars. They all get you from point A to point B, but some do it more comfortably than others. Some drivers are more used to some cars than others, so skill of the driver also comes into play. A person trained on an automatic transmission, with no training on a 5-speed manual stick-shift is likely to make the car stall, especially when attempting to go in reverse. That person is likely to say “those cars are prone to stalling, and emergency acceleration is slower” when it is more correct to say that the driver is prone to stall that car and needs to learn/practice down-shifting. Some cars now days even parallel park themselves, but you have to know how to engage even that feature.

Can all machines be used to deliver permanent hair removal? YES. Can some do it more comfortably than others? In the hands of someone who knows how to utilize the improvements, some machines are more comfortable than others, while doing the same or better job at removing hairs (depending on your criteria for what doing a better job might be; most clients find less pain to qualify as better).

One reason the one lady might get better results with her old Instantron Spectrum when compared to her work with the Apilus Senior Two is that the difference in the delivery of the treatment energy causes the Apilus Senior II to be more dependent on your insertions as it has a smaller target zone. It is not unlike the situation that occurred in the 1920’s and 1930’s when galvanic practitioners all screamed that thermolysis did not work, or had a lower kill rate, just because when they tried to use the machines as if they were galvanic machines, they had poor results. Well, if I attempt to drive a stick shift car like an automatic car, I won’t get out of the parking space. If I try to drive an automatic car like a stick shift car, I may ruin the transmission.

I want to go out of my way to say that the Instantron products are well made here in the USA by a family business that backs their products and will even make special modifications to machines to suite the individual practitioner. They are not to be dismissed out of hand.

#4

Thank you Mor and James for your response. I appreciate the input.

I guess the more treatments that I have, the more I wonder why…

  1. A treatment plan for the specific desired area(s) is not provided to the client? - For example, I understand that hair grows in cycles and that it is most effective to catch them in their anagen phase. So, why not tell the patient that if they wanted their accelerated vellus pigmented hairs on their cheeks treated, they should plan on coming in every X days? This would be so helpful, especially for vellus hairs since the anagen ones are more difficult to spot in areas where complete clearance is never achieved.

  2. Electrologists (the ones that I have met) are not enthusiastic about new tools and/or techniques? - For example, all the 8 licensed professionals that I mentioned the Laurier IBP probe to said that the probe makes no difference (even if I found that my post-treatment skin is better with the IBP). Their approach is that skin reactions can be controlled by changing (i.e. lowering) the energy level settings. In that case, would the patient be getting a less effective treatment due to the lower energy setting? Instead, why not try a new probe or machine setting or…, even though one has not tried it before. I respect one’s negative feedback if they have tried something and don’t like it. But to discount something without trying it? I don’t understand this at all.

  3. Electrologists do not closely monitor whether the treatment approach is productive? - For example, it would be great if the electrologist would monitor the hairs over successive treatments to see if there is any change (i.e. change in hair’s phenotype and/or hair’s growing in slower than earlier) in hair growth pattern. Or, how the skin quality is reacting to the treatment.
    These can be done through photos, discussing with the client etc.

The above would be very helpful for the client, but I have yet to meet a licensed professional doing any of the above. Are my expectations unrealistic?

Thanks,

Anamika.

#5

Part of the problem is that most practitioners are selling their services by the hour, and since the first time is the worst time, and we have to convince you to come back and see that it gets easier over time, they don’t focus on talk that might tend to give clients pause when looking at the total job, instead of looking at the one hour they are buying right now.

Additionally, since we are usually contracted for hourly work, we are not in control of when the client schedules or shows up for work, and therefore, giving any feedback on how any one individual client’s treatment journey will go is hard to discuss, especially if one has never had a client who came on the best schedule necessary to get all the work done in the shortest possible time, when working with you. I offer to you that if I discuss a woman’s upper lip treatment, I can either discuss the fact that we will do roughly an hour or less for a first clearance (as the client is doing the math in her head on what the charge for that would be) or I can discuss the fact that most female upper lips are done in 5 hours spread out over time (as she does the math in her head on what 5 hours will cost). Since I am not looking to have her pay for the treatment up front (although that would be nice), I don’t want her making the decision on starting the work based on the full price from start to finish. While this may sound trivial in the example of an upper lip, think of what the dollar amounts are when discussing a man’s face, back or anyone’s large area job.

I will offer two reasons for practitioners dismissing things out of hand (although there are many reasons) first, if you ask a practitioner about trying some product they don’t have in the office, it means the practitioner is facing buying something you want, or risking you going someplace else in search of that item. Since one can’t get it right now, and one may not wish to, or have the ability to afford said item, or ability to get it quickly, one would attempt to put the client off of the idea to retain the client. Secondly, electrolysis is like typing, change any one variable in the mix, and everything may need adjustment to compensate for that change. There is a fear of not being able to work with, or understand new things added to the mix, and who do you practice on with the new stuff, and who is available to train you to work with the new stuff.

Hopefully when we have our HairMeets, we will be able to offer the Hair Removal Community a chance to see, touch, and practice with all the toys and get this one thing off the list of reasons why new stuff is so unfamiliar and scary.

#6

Anamika,

Thanks for your thoughtful post. Remember that information you are reading on this, or any, post is often over-emphasized. Just the mere “over discussion” of a product or technique makes it seem like that “thing” is new and better. Not necessarily.

The Laurier IB probe, for example, is certainly NOT new. I tried them decades ago (at least since the 1980s). Nice needles, but they do not perform to my standards and don’t work with my technique or what I’m trying to achieve. Because you are now hearing about these needles does not “make them new” or for that matter “better.” They’re not … as far as what I’m doing. (Still, these are fine probes for the various techniques that utilize them appropriately.)

A few posts ago, a Hairtell reader was commenting on Jossie’s technique: using her fingers to remove treated hairs. The client-writer was promoting this “finger technique” and felt that ALL electrologists should be doing this! Indeed, Jossie’s technique works for her and I adore this woman. Still, my own way of working is completely different. I suppose I’m going to start getting phone calls from patients that “demand” I use my fingers to remove hairs? And, of course, this is utterly preposterous.

But we all do this. We have success and then try to “impose” certain guidelines on the entire group. There are many ways of working, many ways of achieving total success. The only thing that matters is getting excellent results.

Indeed, only the actual patients that I work with really know exactly what I do. I can’t, and won’t, even attempt to disclose all the carefully-thought-out treatment parameters I use in my practice: that would be another book; which this post is quickly becoming!

Versteh?

#7

As far as I remember, I have never tried to impose anything on anyone, except good manners and honesty to my two kids.

I never expected that my technique had many fans, at least not among other electrologists. However, it seems that this “finger technique” is becoming a favorite among consumers.

You said, Michael, “Only the marketplace!”.

By the way, I also use tweezers, from time to time…
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lEZV6fPL9ZE&list=UUC9-eeB3Y_vk5cCAqcqWKxg

#8

Jossie, I just wrote this in another thread because I hadn’t seen your post yet.

I really think your finger technique is very exciting. You know how we work bang-bang fast to clear hairs on a very hairy area! i will attack some sections doing 30 insertions, without stopping, and mass lift out the hairs . It saves time and gives us clues about how thoroughly a hair was treated. . Some hairs, I have found need the precision of the forceps and I know this is the same for you. I’m so glad you shared the finger idea, because I had not seen this before. It is kind of a natural way to do this if you think about it.

As Michael said, we all have ideas in our bag of tricks to get clients to a victorious end. I do hate when clients tell me what their last electrologist did twenty years ago! I’m saying, “yal, yal, yal” in my mind.

#9

Thank you everyone for your feedback. Josefa’s technique sounds interesting—is there a video of it somewhere for viewing?

James, I understand and then again I guess I don’t. :slight_smile: So here’s to a successful HairMeet!!!

Mike, I did not mean to convey that the Laurier IBP is new (it only is to me since I just experienced it and I was using it as an example to illustrate my point) or that I expect all electrologists to use it because it is “better”. Nor do I believe in imposing my (zero experience as an electrologist) view on a licensed professional. :slight_smile: However, if I tell an electrologist my experience—and what worked well and what did not—I would expect them to take that in to account and not simply dismiss it. So, for example, when I tell the practitioner that my skin post-treatment did well with the Laurier IBP, I do not expect them to invest in it; but, I do not appreciate being told that the probe could have had little to do with my experience when they have never used it (or even heard of it!) themselves. Similarly, as another example, if I were to let a practitioner know that the past treatment with them resulted in scabs from every single insertion, I would expect them to take that in to account, and not merely dismiss it saying that it could have been due to my skin being too dry or my skin having too much water or that time of the month or that they are a good electrologist and scabs never happen to them etc. etc. These are all real examples of dismissals that I have got! I guess it is the close-mindedness that I do not understand. I hope that you understand what I am trying to say here? English is not my first language and so please pardon any lapses in communication. :slight_smile:

Personally, I would like to find someone who takes an interest in and is actively involved in my treatments, kind of like my Hair Destroyer Doctor, and not just operating on auto pilot. And so I guess my search still continues…

#10

You know what, being the supposed finger technique ‘promoter’, I was formulating a reply in my mind after reading the above posts about why I as a newbie like it, but I give up.

I keep banging on about the closed mindedness of the profession as a whole and how all the electrologists I met locally before traveling to Jossie, were so reticent to ANY change. IF they were doing good work and getting results, would I care how they go about it? NO. If you are plucking hairs with tweezers but telling the client the follicle has been treated, then YES, you DO need a better indicator of what you are doing.

If my attempts to educate clients so that they demand a better level of treatment is WRONG, then I should just stop.

I don’t know why I seem to be getting the blame for clients who don’t bother to understand the electrolysis process and therefore misconstrue my words.

#11

Yes, let’s lower settings and continue to pluck more hairs!

#12

Stoppit, BIAE AGM 14th April- you are cordially invited - non members’ fee £62.
Come and have many friendly chats with the many enthusiastic, varied and open-minded attendees. I mean this sincerely. It would be great to see consumers at this event. It would be great to meet You. See: ‘British Institute & Association of Electrolysis’;
www.electrolysis.co.uk for details.
June

#13

Thanks James, just read your post.

#14

Oh My!
Caught me, didn’t you? :wink:
even if it is a little late ;-p